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Longrifle
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April 23 2007
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 Posted - January 19 2009 : 2:23:16 PM
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Well James N, at least it's not golf. A golf course strikes me as a deliberate and willful missuse of a perfectly good horse pasture. All Sothern Appalachia needs is a few more Floridians hollering "fore!" 
In the southeast where I grew up, footbaw was the ruination of many a good farm hand.
I lettered in squirrel hunting myself. And I only regret that I didn't devote more time to it.
Ah, to be a 12 year old boy again with a .22 in the woods on opening day!
Priorities, I say, priorities! |
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days." - Daniel Boone |
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Longrifle
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April 23 2007
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Posted - January 19 2009 : 3:41:07 PM
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James N,
I was re-reading one of your posts on the previous page and wanted to add a thought about something.
"Think about it: virtually ALL the great inventions and developments in this period - from railroads and steamboats to telegraphy, telephone, McCormack's reaper, steel plows, etc. - were used to "subdue" the West."
The thought is this: without big bore Remington and Sharps buffalo rifles - and men with the skill and will to use them - the other inventions and developments you listed could not have been used to full effect.
Homesteading and plowing are difficult as long as large herds of buffalo are on the land. Plus, in spite of the Army's best efforts, were the plains tribes ever really close to defeat as long as they had their mobile commissary?
So I'm going out on a historical limb here and assert that homesteading would not have had the effect on the plains tribes that it did without the hide hunting that happened during the same era.
And on the original subject of this thread: spirit; revisionist historians, Native Americans, and environmentalists may cringe when the subject of buffalo hunters comes up but the hide men certainly had spirit.
Your fellow Texan Elmer Kelton has written two interesting novels about this: Slaughter and The Buffalo Wagons. Plus, as a Texas historian yourself, I'm sure you are familiar with events like Adobe Walls. |
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days." - Daniel Boone |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - January 19 2009 : 5:42:30 PM
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Longrifle,
I mentioned the things I did because they likely would NOT spring to mind as easily as would developments in weaponry as "tamers" of the frontier: breechloading rifles and carbines like Sharps', Spencer's and others; Colt's revolver; artillery; Gatling guns; etc. etc. A lot of people today in our non-agricultural society would fail to recognize the importance of common domestic items like the sewing machine or the steel "plow that broke the plains" in taming the frontier. No question about the role of the hunter in slaughtering the primary food supply; I just want everyone to remember that action would've been impractical without the railroads to haul their resulting mountain of hides to market. |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 20 2009 : 12:17:09 AM
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Regarding the fact of anyone teaching history they just need a book. I so wish that history could be taught by those who truly love and have studied it and could make it come to life, rather than just regurgitating boring names, dates, etc. Imagine the difference that would make! An American populace who could know and appreciate what was done to make this country.
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Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - January 20 2009 : 2:42:58 PM
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| That isn't going to happen, because teachers are hired by school administrators. And how does someone become a school administrator? When they're too old to COACH, they "naturally" gravitate to school administration! ( Teachers of other REAL subjects continue as teachers until they retire - or die. ) So it becomes self-perpetuating as the former coaches "look out for" and favor the current crop of Good ol' Boys. At least, to remind you of what the secretary said, "...it's been like that a long time"! |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 20 2009 : 7:40:41 PM
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| Have you read Thomas Sowell? His book on education in this country tells it like it is. In this state, each school is the principal's little kingdom; they can do pretty much whatever they want. Last year in a local elementary school all the teachers were given different grade assignments for 08-09 - no reason, just because the principal could. The main reason for our lousy educational system lays right at the feet of the school administrator. Every year, a new idea is tried and when it turns out to be a bone headed plan, it's scrapped for the next one - equally bone headed. In this state(NC), each year the tests have to be re-graded to raise the passing rate because at the first go around, most of the students do not pass. And we're being told that the teachers have to teach "to the test". If that were true, wouldn't everyone pass the first time? Sorry to be on the soap box. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - January 21 2009 : 10:21:03 AM
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Dianne,
I have to disagree with you in one respect. For most of my life until I used the Millenium "the-sky-is-falling" BS as an "excuse" to finally get away from it, I lived in the megalopolis "Metroplex" of Dallas/FW. Although I did at times apply to teach in some of the suburbs, NEVER did I try in Dallas itself. Why, you ask, since SURELY I could've gotten at the very least a position as a substitute teacher?
The local news was full of the never-ending fights among members of the SCHOOL BOARD, as the now-majority of blacks sought to wrest control of schools and curriculum to further their own social agenda. It degenerated into a three-way fight once "Hispanics" ( read: MEXICANS ) innundated the city as they have everywhere. In virtually all metro areas schools are just another forum for racial politics and "political correctness". That's one reason why the Civil War has now devolved from what historian Bernard DeVoto called "The crux of our history" into just another episode in the saga from slavery to the White House. That's right along with the now-apologetic views of Westward expansion and the Mexican War as nothing but shameless land grabs, for which we as a nation should eternally repent - and pay for!
As for teaching "to the test"; of course NONE of that existed ( or needed to ) until after the integration of the '60's and '70's caused schools to begin lowering standards for graduation so as to not "discriminate" against THEM. I've seen it ALL during my professional lifetime, and am only TOO glad to have missed most of it! |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - January 21 2009 : 9:11:13 PM
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| The latest issue of Newsweek arrived in the mail today, and it's about "who we [Americans] are now." It's estimated that by 2050 or so we'll be a minority-majority nation (no one racial/ethnic group will be more than 50% of the whole) -- 47% white, 29% Hispanic, 13% black, 9% Asian, and I guess 2% other. Several states (NM, CA, HI, at least) are minority-majority already. We'll all have some adjusting to do (note how ridiculously optimistic I am about still being around!), but we'll still be the United States of America. |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - January 22 2009 : 10:45:00 AM
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Bookworm,
Will we? And just how much of "our" American History ( as exemplified by this site! ) do you think these mostly illegal "Hispanic" aliens will relate to? At LEAST most white, black, and "other" REAL native Americans have a shared past, turbulent as it may have been. These modern-day invaders care as little about it as my own ancestors did about the Cherokee or Iroquois they supplanted. I don't know where in the U.S. you may happen to hail from; but here in the mid-south all one has to do is look around to see the physical manefestations of our failed policy of "immigration"! |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - January 22 2009 : 1:01:24 PM
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I just had a sudden "vision" of America in the year 2259.
The White "man" will have become the "new" Native American Indian. All of the illegal aliens will have battled with them, killed their women and children, rounded the remaining ones up, and forced them onto reservations in the Dakota badlands where nothing will grow. They will become outcasts, looked down upon, and will starve from lack of good food.
Sound familiar? I'm glad I won't be here. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
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Posted - January 22 2009 : 11:54:05 PM
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"White, black, and 'other' REAL native Americans"? IMHO the only "native Americans" are American Indians and the original inhabitants of Hawaii. The rest of us -- white, black, Hispanic, Asian, whatever -- came later.
Additional thoughts on James' and WW's concerns:
"Hispanic" (which I'm equating with "Latino," though there may be differences I'm not aware of) encompasses a great deal more than recent Mexican immigrants, legal or not. For example, the family of Secretary of the Interior (formerly Senator) Ken Salazar has been here for more than 400 years -- longer than any of my people have -- and this is true of many others in the northern NM/southern CO area where the Salazars settled. A significant (but decreasing) portion of the Hispanics in Florida are from, or are descendants of those who are from, Cuba. Puerto Rico, of course, is a U.S. territory.
Culturally, too, Hispanics aren't monolithic. While most are Catholic, many are evangelical. Newsweek notes that Republicans have done well among Hispanic voters in Texas, many of whose sons and daughters are in the military.
As for Mexican immigrants, the criticisms being made of them -- they won't learn English, won't adapt, are too different from the rest of us -- have been made of many immigrant groups that preceded them, especially those from Ireland and southern Europe. They adapted. The first generation may not become fluent in English, but the second generation will. If memory serves, Benjamin Franklin was very suspicious of Pennsylvania's German settlers.
Hispanic participation in politics is extensive: two senators, 27 members of the House of Representatives, one governor, two Cabinet members, at least two big-city mayors that I can think of (Los Angeles and Miami), and I won't even attempt to research and summarize state and local representation. They aren't aiming to overthrow the system.
Also, there's a powerful antidote to ethnic separateness -- intermarriage. Eventually the average American may look like Tiger Woods (in our dreams!). I believe he describes his ethnic heritage as "Cablinasian" -- Caucasian, black, Indian, Asian.
So, I'm confident that we'll handle whatever comes along. Si, se puede. |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - January 23 2009 : 08:53:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookworm
IMHO the only "native Americans" are American Indians and the original inhabitants of Hawaii. The rest of us -- white, black, Hispanic, Asian, whatever -- came later.
The "Native Americans" all displaced some other peoples. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - January 23 2009 : 12:51:00 PM
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My silly "vision" was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
Seriously though, I expect whites will be a minority in this country at some point down the road. It may take a couple hundred years. But, I don't think that enough intermarriage will ever happen to create a human uni-color in America. People-groups and races tend to stick together, even when they live in the same country. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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August 16 2006
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Posted - January 24 2009 : 12:11:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookworm
"White, black, and 'other' REAL native Americans"? IMHO the only "native Americans" are American Indians and the original inhabitants of Hawaii. The rest of us -- white, black, Hispanic, Asian, whatever -- came later.
.....
I'm reminded of what Russell Means said, on the order of: if you were born in the Western Hemisphere, you are a Native American!
Besides, the original "American Indians" came from Siberia and the "native" Hawaiians originally came from Bora Bora or some such place! Let's face it, our ancestors all came from somewhere else! |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - January 24 2009 : 7:53:30 PM
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| I agree with Russel Means in this case; but of course I was using the term to describe persons born in this COUNTRY - which the millions of illegal Mexican nationals now infesting it are most certainly NOT! And according to figures I've seen, if the trend continues unabated as it has for the past 2 decades Wilderness Woman's prognostication is WAY off, by at least 150 years too long. And Bookworm's so-called "antidote" sounds much more like the nightmare forcast by my Confederate ancestors. This has indeed been the "dream" of Liberals in this country for far too long; the current Obamanation is the fruit of that misguided attitude. It's too bad that we don't have the sense to profit from the lesson amply provided by the original Native Americans' failure to nip the Evil White Man's "immigration" in the bud when they had the chance! |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
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Posted - January 24 2009 : 8:16:19 PM
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| Your Confederate ancestors LOST! That's not who we are now. |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 24 2009 : 8:52:50 PM
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I've been wondering about this and I know that I'll get some interesting responses on this topic.
What if, for some unknown reason, the Europeans didn't make it to this continent until the early 1900's, even though they had advanced to the level they actually were in the beginning of the century. What would they have found when they arrived here in 1900?? Would the native people have advanced or would they be as they were when the original European's made their discovery? What do you think? |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
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Posted - January 25 2009 : 2:38:10 PM
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Diane,
Since for some strange reason neither even the Inca nor Aztecs had managed to invent the wheel, and all tribes were effectively in the Bronze Age metallurgically speaking, it's doubtful they would've advanced very much further than they already had. Lacking metal tools, manufacture was limited to handiwork of various kinds, so no industry as we know it was possible. South American llamas were the largest and most powerful beasts of burden in the Americas and so there would've been NO personal transport: horses, oxen, wagons, etc., severely limiting commerce. Desire for all these commodities caused their downfall as they actively sought trading partners among the new European arrivals, thereby exposing themselves to all sorts of contagions in the process. I think your idea would've just postponed the inevetable.
Bookworm,
It may not be who YOU are now; but I saw no reason to dishonor their spirit by voting Democratic this time. ( I have in the past, before that party abandoned its former strongest supporters here in the South. ) Yes, they did lose; did that automatically make them wrong? Since you're taking the moral high ground of the Northern Abolitionists vs. the racist Southerners, and seem to equate Might with Right, I'd like to remind you that the bulk of the Union army, including both Grant and Sherman, were opposed to emancipation and eqality of races, fighting for preservation of the Union, NOT emancipation. Also, during the 1920's one of the strongest states in membership of the Ku Klux Klan was that Old South Bastion - Indiana! |
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Longrifle
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 Posted - January 26 2009 : 11:49:38 PM
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Bookworm,
I offer this as an explaination, not as a slam or discourtesy to you:
"The southern soldier fought because he was provoked, intimidated, and ultimately invaded. His leaders convinced him that this was a war of independence in the same sense as the Revolutionary War." - Senator James Webb
I'd like to point out that it doesn't matter if a good argument can be made today that this was not true. What matters is that the average non-slave owning southern soldier believed that it was true at the time.
The result? A well supplied Union Army that fielded three million men took four years to defeat a poorly supplied Confederate Army that fielded one million men. And the decendents of Union soldiers today have the audacity to jokingly say things like "Kicked your ass, get over it" to the decendents of Confederate Soldiers who usually sarcastically think something like "Wow, what warriors."
Yes, southerners today can still be hyper-sensitive about the honor of their ancestors. And they're not about to get over it until modern history vindicates their ancestors as having been essentially honorable men - on the same level as the heroes of the Revolution - and today's northerners are a little more humble in their ancestor's victory.
Now, don't get me started on reconstruction!
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"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days." - Daniel Boone |
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Gadget Girl
Gatherer of Gathering Gadgets
USA
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 02:02:25 AM
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Did I ever mention that I LOVE Jack??? Isn't that what this topic was about???
The Gadgetmeister!!! |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 04:36:22 AM
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That was a very thoughtful and gracious post, Longrifle, and I thank you for it. I'm a big admirer of Senator Webb, and his point is well taken.
Why yes, GG, you have mentioned that, and you're not alone! |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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blackfootblood
Devoted Tribal Member
USA
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 12:16:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Longrifle
Yes, southerners today can still be hyper-sensitive about the honor of their ancestors. And they're not about to get over it until modern history vindicates their ancestors as having been essentially honorable men - on the same level as the heroes of the Revolution - and today's northerners are a little more humble in their ancestor's victory.
You're comment reminds me of something that happened to me shortly after moving to the South. I had just gotten married and moved to Virginia with my husband. Born and raise in Pennsylvania, I have an ancestry tree rooted there since the 1700's. Anyhow, after I finished nursing school, I started working at a family practice. One day an elderly woman came in and was there to talk to the doctor. Anyhow, I was getting her ready for the doc and I had engaged small talk with her until I was finished with everything. She stopped me mid sentence and grabbed my hand and said, "You aren't from the South are you?" I was caught off guard, kinda giggling because I thought that was a weird question to pull out of thin air. So I answered, "no I wasn't". The nice, little, elderly lady took a 180 from being super nice to absolutely rude. She even called me a Yankee. She had a real deep southern accent and she almost sounded like Ms. Scarlet O'Hara. Then she started to brag about how rich she was and how her kids were going to Harvard and making way more money than I would ever see in my entire life. So that's where I politely took my leave and walked out. But she was the first of many to stop me and ask me if I was from the North, it's crazy how people know. Do I have Yankee tattooed in my forehead or something?  |
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain!"
"Live well, love much, laugh often!" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 2:47:18 PM
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| I can only trace my ancestry in SC back to the F&I, and my wife can only go back to 1764. To be really southern, you need to have been at Charleston when it was settled in 1670. My daughter lives in Charleston and is getting married this summer to a boy who also lives in Charleston. If they have children, they will be born in Charleston and that will help some. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 4:02:49 PM
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| Sounds a LOT like Mainers, - no "flat lander" will EVER be a Mainer, - just ain't gonna happen. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 4:17:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by James N.
[ NEVER did I try in Dallas itself. Why, you ask, since SURELY I
As for teaching "to the test"; of course NONE of that existed ( or needed to ) until after the integration of the '60's and '70's caused schools to begin lowering standards for graduation so as to not "discriminate" against THEM. I've seen it ALL during my professional lifetime, and am only TOO glad to have missed most of it!
James,
Here in NC, the school systems bus kids from one end of a county to the other to ensure that racial and socio-economic balance exists in the schools. Obviously, buses and gas are not inexpensive out-lays. Even in this economy, no one is suggesting that the busing stop. This has been going on for decades and I don't think any benefit has been established. Everyone who can afford it sends their kids to private schools or home schools. No one has the courage to say ENOUGH!! |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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