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December 16 2008
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 Posted - December 17 2008 : 11:30:47 AM
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Hello...
I have some random questions:
During the Huron Village Scene:
Was there a particular reason why Sachem chose Cora to be burned to death?
Was there a particular reason why Sachem chose Alice to go with Magua?
Was there a particular reason why Sachem chose Duncan and Hawkeye to go free?
If Duncan had not mis-translated-on-purpose, would Sachem have accepted Hawkeye in the place of Cora?
Why did Sachem allow Duncan to take Cora's place?
With the death of Colonel Munro, do you think Cora came into some inheritance?
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - December 18 2008 : 12:56:01 PM
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Most of your questions have been discussed quite a lot on this board, but I can't point you to any particular forum or thread to view them.
I'm sure we each have our own opinions about why the Sachem did what he did. My thinking is that he was trying to sort of appease everyone, and yet he didn't want to allow Magua to completely have his way. I think there was a bit of a power struggle between the two of them.
As for Hawkeye... he was pretty well-respected because of being raised as an Indian by Chingachgook, even though he was white. I don't think the Sachem would have accepted him in place of Cora. The British soldier -- Duncan -- was not respected and was not "valuable." In the end, I think the Sachem just wanted to be done with the whole business so he could go back to being a sick old man, so he agreed to the trade.
I doubt very much that Cora received any inheritance. If the Col. was a younger son of a wealthy family, his family purchased his Officer's Commission for him. He wouldn't have received much of an estate from his father, as it would go to the eldest son. The English laws being what they were for a woman inheriting property or wealth... I don't think she got a pound! |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
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Posted - December 19 2008 : 12:20:47 PM
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WW,
Actually, Duncan WAS the most "valuable" any way you look at it! Ian Steele's book, Betrayals, about the Fort William Henry "massacre" goes to great and convincing length to show that the main motovation for that act was the desire for plunder, particularly in the form of RANSOM. ( Apologies to J. F. Cooper. ) Both Montcalm and Gouvernor-General Vaudreuil of Canada had unfortunately given precedents for this by previously ransoming English captives from their native allies. Major Heyward as an officer of the Empire would certainly brought the biggest ransom; but that was disavowed in this particular case by the Sachem who basically says that by letting him go it's a sort of peaceful gesture to the British enemy. "Respected" or otherwise, the landless Hawkeye, despite his being white, having no such friends in high places to pay for his return was the truly "worthless" one! |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
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Posted - December 19 2008 : 2:50:32 PM
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I was hoping to consult my copy of the script to see if I could get any insight to the Sachem's reasoning, but find I'm MISSING P.108 where most of his dialog occurs! But here's a tidbit regarding PART of it:
P.107A.
0C CONTINUED
The judgement:
SACHEM ( Huron; subtitled ) Munro daughter possessed with the spirit will become Magua's wife
so Munro's seed doesn't die and Magua's heart is healed.
Alice is gone, living in some dark recess of her mind.
CONTINUED
That's that ENTIRE PAGE! Keep in mind that in literature and lore ( if not in actual fact ) the native Americans were supposedly superstitous regarding the insane, hence the reference to Alice being "possessed with the spirit"; it figures in Cooper's original novels. I guess that makes Alice ( who must've been intended to be even more "out of it" than she was! ) a prime candidate for a mate!
A historical parallel lies in the story of one Hon Yost Schuyler ( name variously spelled ), a supposed half-wit who was sent by Benedict Arnold ( when he was still an American hero ) to Joseph Brandt's Iroquois besieging Ft. Stanwix during the Saratoga campaign in 1777. Pretending to be a Loyalist who'd escaped from the Americans, his job was to convince them Arnold had 2000 men and was marching to relieve the fort, a gross exaggeration. Apparantly the ruse worked ( along with the losses they suffered in the Battle of Oriskany), because the Iroquois soon decamped leaving the British and Tories with too few men to continue the siege. |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - December 20 2008 : 10:14:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by James N.
SACHEM ( Huron; subtitled ) "Munro daughter possessed with the spirit".....
Alice is gone, living in some dark recess of her mind.
Well, I certainly do wish they had left that part of the Sachem's line in the movie. It, and the line below it from the script notes, proves beyond any doubt to me that the opinion I have been expressing time and time again is the fact. And that is.... are you ready?.... here it comes again, and I am getting ready to duck to avoid the flying shoes....
By this point in her experiences, Alice had gone completely 'round the bend. She was walking in loose moccasins. She was one brick shy of a load. She was crazy. Ergo, she was not in love with Uncas. She did not gaze at him with love when he tried to rescue her. She did not look upon his dead body below the cliff as a woman gazing in grief at her dead lover. She did not throw herself from the cliff in grief over his death. She threw herself from the cliff because she was crazy. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - December 20 2008 : 2:15:41 PM
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| Now tell us what you really think, WW. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - December 20 2008 : 3:13:45 PM
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Aw, come on Fitz.... you agree with me on this one. You know you do. You just don't want to admit it. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - December 20 2008 : 3:48:08 PM
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I agree. After the first ambush she was out of it. A steady downhill slide to the Huron village where she realizes she is going to be killed. After that, a brief period where she thinks she might be rescued, then that disappears and she jumps.
(Did I just agree with WW for a second time? Can't believe that! A Christmas miracle or something?) |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Obediah
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Posted - December 20 2008 : 9:14:44 PM
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The miracle would be if WW starts speaking French!   |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - December 21 2008 : 11:10:35 AM
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Pigs really will be flying when that happens! 
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Obediah
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Posted - December 21 2008 : 7:48:45 PM
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| Right you are, femme de rgion sauvage! |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 15 2009 : 2:18:31 PM
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| I've been reading quite a bit lately about Henry vIII and the wives. Evidently, back in good old Europe, burning was the way to put people to death for various reasons, treason being one. Does anyone know if burnings were being done here by the native peoples before the Europeans arrived??? It's such a horrible death. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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James N.
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Posted - January 15 2009 : 7:34:45 PM
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di-mc, burnings, per se are somewhat beside the point; though a part of it - but only part. If you REALLY want to be grossed out, take a look in Allan Eckert's Wilderness Empire and especially The Frontiersmen for DETAILED accounts of Native American "customs and rituals" involving captives. The treatment of Virginia Colonel William Crawford at the hands of the Delawares in what's now Ohio as described in Frontiersmen is the "classic" example; one author referred to it a "living dissection". Though Eckert's books fall on the borderline between history and novels, they're well researched and documented; Crawford's sad tale comes from the account of an army doctor captured at the same time and slated for the same fate who nevertheless happily managed to get away first! His was the first account to detail the proceedings, usually SIMPLIFIED as merely "burning at the stake".
At least European beheadings and burnings were usually ( with notable exceptions, like Joan of Arc and Jacques deMolay of DaVinci Code fame! ) quick; some were actually strangled BEFORE being burned, or died relatively quickly from smoke inhalation. The Iroquois and others would certainly be careful to ensure THAT didn't happen! In fact that's a MAJOR error in "our" favorite LOTM - Duncan's way too far gone when Hawkeye "puts him out of his misery"; they wouldn't EVEN be "warmed up" yet! ( Pun intended. ) AND he would've been TOTALLY naked and had at least his face painted black; and probably his hair covered in some way to "preserve" the trophy scalp!
Our friend Russel Means can pretend things like that didn't happen; but unfortunately for the victims it had become "custom" LONG before the Evil White Man ever set foot on North American soil! |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 15 2009 : 9:02:00 PM
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| I think I'll pass on reading the gory details! I have read that Henry VIII and his daughter Mary, who burned Catholics for their faith, commanded that for some they particularly hated that the fires burn slowly, insuring a slow tortuous death. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - January 15 2009 : 10:23:20 PM
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| "Slow fire" was a standard punishment for heretics. It gave them a chance to repent before they died. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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caitlin
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Posted - January 15 2009 : 10:46:51 PM
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| Where was the "drawn and quatered" aspect brought in? I'd always read about it, but it wasn't until the Tudors that the horrific details came to light |
Jack McCall: "Should we shake hands or something, relieve the atmosphere. I mean how stupid do you think I am?"
Wild Bill Hickok: "I don't know, I just met you."
"A nation with no regard to it's past will have little future worth remembering."
A.Lincoln
"Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realize that they were the big things"
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - January 16 2009 : 11:34:19 AM
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| I have heard that Edward I developed a method of execution for treason and used in on a Welsh prince around 1282. It began with hanging, then cutting off various things, then opening the stomach and removing the intestines and burning them while the person watched, the quartering what was left. The trick was to keep the person alive until the very end. This is dramatized in the Mel Gibson movie Braveheart. Of course it took a very skilled executioner to accomoplish this. Now, look up the process used by the Mohawk to torture the Jesuits. Very similar. So who were the savages and who were the civilized? Toss a coin. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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James N.
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Posted - January 16 2009 : 8:23:29 PM
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| Fitz, I find it difficult to sympathize with the Jesuits - they were as obnoxious to the Native Americans as the Quakers were to the Puritans! The Iroquois made it perfectly plain they weren't interested in what the Jesuits offered; I guess they thought if they killed a few really brutally, maybe the others would finally "get the picture". Of course you had those die-hards ( literally! ) like Father Jouges who, after being a slave for a time, severely beaten, and having several fingers and pieces of fingers cut off, insisted on returning after being ransomed to continue to pester them. At last he got what was coming to him! |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 16 2009 : 8:31:22 PM
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| Well, - what can you say? ... Some folks are just "slow learners". |
you can keep "The Change" |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 16 2009 : 10:47:06 PM
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| For those who were on the "slow cooker", if they did repent, then what? Were the fires doused??? |
Diane
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James N.
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Posted - January 17 2009 : 1:02:03 PM
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OF COURSE NOT - By then it would've been too late anyway! Remember that religious zealots then ( as well as now! ) always have the "welfare" of the unenlightened foremost in their thinking: they're only seeking to save their souls from eternal damnation. As long as they repent before they die ( no matter how horrible that may be ), they're rewarded in the afterlife with Heavenly salvation! Wouldn't that make you feel better if YOU were the one accused and being burned as a witch?
At LEAST the Iroquois weren't so "Holier-than Thou" about it - they just wanted to kill their enemies in as slow and painful a way possible, like they deserved! Besides, it served the added purpose of striking fear in the hearts of possible opponents who might thereby be deterred in opposing their will. Remember they were overlords of much of frontier N.Y., Pa., Ohio, etc., exacting tribute from all sorts of conquered tribes. In the most notable incident, they massacred the hapless Eries who had sought to make treaties without the approvial of their "masters". This was as a "warning" to others, and it generally had the desired effect! |
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di-mc
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Posted - January 17 2009 : 6:00:15 PM
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| So, terrorism, obviously, is not new. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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Sarah
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Posted - January 27 2009 : 8:55:50 PM
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Hello...
I have some random questions:
Well, I have some particular responses based on what I concluded from the film: My responses are beneath the OP's questions:
During the Huron Village Scene:
Was there a particular reason why Sachem chose Cora to be burned to death?I
I always thought it was because she was the stronger of the two, and there fore more valuable of the sisters. His intent was to gratify the idea Magua proposed that there should be some retribution to what Magua suffered at the hand of Monro. Magua was originally Huron, but had spent his life with the Mohicans, and was not really part of their culture anymore, so it was Sachem's way of acknowleging at least that.
Was there a particular reason why Sachem chose Alice to go with Magua?
Wife-wise, yes, Alice could be a wife to Magua, to perpetuate his seed again, to make up for Magua's loss. Sachem, I thought, saw the pride and downfall of Magua's personality and believed that this was reasonable and balancded, while Magua's need for "wiping Monro's seed from the face of the earth" was not. Sacrifing Cora was more honorable, because of her strength, which was more valued during a death. Like Clingon. A Strong, honorable death more valuable than a waek, death. What honor is there in killing the weak and insane?
Was there a particular reason why Sachem chose Duncan and Hawkeye to go free?
If Duncan had not mis-translated-on-purpose, would Sachem have accepted Hawkeye in the place of Cora?
Why did Sachem allow Duncan to take Cora's place?
With the death of Colonel Munro, do you think Cora came into some inheritance?
Duncan.
When Sachem heard these (more worthy than Magua) men object and interject their values for this situation, he listened. Duncan said "take me" before Cora. Hawkeye said "take me" before Duncan. Hawkeye was not going to be touched, because of his lineage and the Sachems ultimate respect for Hawkeye's background, and Hawkeye's non-participation in the political conflict Magua had brought him.
Duncan, if he wanted to go in Cora's ploace, so be it. Did Sachem care much about ransom? I believe Sachem cared most about the balance Alice as Magua's spouse gave to Magua's angst. Other than that, any sacrifice would do, and if Duncan, as British officer wanted to die in his fires that was fine with him. After all, he didnt' want to be allied to these whites after all, as Hawkeye pointed out in his speech.
I think that's basically how it went down. I think we all agree that the folks balanced themselves out appropriately - Alice to her ultimate doom as a weak and unadaptable being; Cora not to die in the fire though she was polictically and spiritually strong engough to be that valuable; Duncan most valuable to the Huron for his enmity against the French and Magua, both, Hawkeye to be preserved because of his people's relations with these Huron, which were probably neutral or non-iriquoisan..
If Duncan had not mis-translated-on-purpose, would Sachem have accepted Hawkeye in the place of Cora?
I don't think he mistranslated on purpose. I think he just spoke over Hawkeye, in French so it was understood, that he simply wanted to go. I don't think the language barrier was that great. Most of those folks spoke all the languages, or at least undersood them. I think only Cora and Alice didn't follow the conversation, and in real life, they would have understood the French very well, though not the Iriquos (mohican) or Huron. The Huron understood the French, the Iriquois and the Huron, and the English, whether they spoke it all or not. When Duncan declared his intentions in French, it excluded the girls, and was a tacit agreement with amongst the men, then and there. He had made his declaration, and did the Sachem even have a choice? To me, it was the first time Duncan was REally strong, and really honorable. Nobody could object to this honor, when it appeared, not even Hawkeye. This sacrifice of Duncans was the best and most honorable the Huron could find out of this conflict, and would not have said no. Hawkeye recogized and for the first time really respected him for it too.
Why did Sachem allow Duncan to take Cora's place?
As Above.
With the death of Colonel Munro, do you think Cora came into some inheritance?
This is a question way outside anything the story is about. Why do you ask it?
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - January 28 2009 : 07:57:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah
I don't think he mistranslated on purpose. I think he just spoke over Hawkeye, in French so it was understood, that he simply wanted to go. I don't think the language barrier was that great. Most of those folks spoke all the languages, or at least understood them.
I disagree with you on this point. Duncan most definitely mistranslated on purpose. It is made obvious by his body language, his facial expression, and the way in which he spoke the words. He looked almost defiant. This is further supported by Hawkeye's obviously shocked reaction when the warriors grabbed Duncan instead of him. He had no clue that Duncan had not repeated his words exactly.
I also disagree about the language barrier. In this movie, Hawkeye did not speak or understand French, and neither did the girls. Hawkeye's languages came from his life with the Mohicans and from his education at Rev. Wheelock's school, and he had no opportunity to learn French. If he had been raised in association with a French Catholic priest, he would have. I am not convinced, either that the girls, who were Scottish, would have learned French. After all, France had been the sworn enemy of Britain for a very long time, and it would not be seemly to learn their language.
As an aside, the Mohicans were not part of the Iroquois Confederacy.
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - January 28 2009 : 09:34:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
France had been the sworn enemy of Britain for a very long time, and it would not be seemly to learn their language.
Britain, yes, Scotland, no. Scotland always had a close association with France. Mary Queen of Scots was married to a French royal. The French sent troupes to help the Scots in the 45. The Pretenders all had aid from France. The Scots in the 16th century wars with England had French support and even military instructors. So it would have been much more likely for a well-born Scot to have spoken French than an Englishwomen. But did they (in the movie)? Apparently not.
And any time the subject of mistranslations comes up I am reminded of Fort Necessity. |
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Kaylynn44
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Posted - January 28 2009 : 09:55:49 AM
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Fitz,
I sure hope that Scotland had a close association with Scotland. I know that you meant to put France in there somewhere. 
Love,
Kay |
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