![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]") |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
 Posted - January 13 2009 : 5:56:05 PM
|
This all has taken me a little while to fully develop the reasons why LOTM resonates with so many of us. Obviously, it's a great story, beautifully brought to life in film with great actors, unsurpassed scenery and wonderful music.
But, it's more, isn't it? At least it is for me. It's about the American spirit, that "can do anything" spirit. We have much to be grateful for; those who came before us and brought forth this nation we call home. But, it's still more, and I'm afraid it may be the realization that we wouldn't be able to do it now. Have we become too soft? I think we have. I think we are so fat and happy that we would not do what those people in the Revolution and those pre-Revolution sacrificed and were able to achieve. Could we hold on to an idea, a goal after a year or two passed and success still far off?
Think of World War II, our parents and grandparents fought in the war and did what was necessary here at home to win for years and the final outcome unknown. It was very possible that we would not be the victors. But they didn't throw in the towel after many battles; they kept up the fight. Could we? I doubt it.
Am I wrong? I don't think so. Today our national resolve is easily swayed by forces that don't know and/or understand what's at stake and nothing seems worth fighting for. What was important last year, isn't holding our attention now.
Is the American spirit of the past truly over? What do you think?
|
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
|
report to moderator
|
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 13 2009 : 6:53:49 PM
|
That is a very thought-provoking question.
I agree with much of what you say. We have become very soft, and very complacent with life the way it has been since 1950. It is difficult to try to compare what my parents (The Greatest Generation!) did during WWII to what my children's generation would do now. Times are so very different. I have to say that it does concern me.
And yet...... remember what happened after Sept. 11, 2001? Remember the instantaneous and tremendous surge of patriotism? Remember how virtually the entire nation got up on their feet and screamed, "N-o-o-o-o-o!!!!! You will NOT do this to us!"? Remember how we all stood as one behind President Bush and cheered when he vowed that "Soon the whole world will hear us!" It happened. And it can happen again.
So, to answer your question, No. I don't the the American spirit of the past is over. I think it's just sleeping. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
report to moderator  |
|
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 13 2009 : 7:29:12 PM
|
I hope you are right - the spirit is just sleeping. Seems to me that it didn't take long for the righteous outrage of what happened on 9-11 to leave many of our citizens. I recall saying that I hoped those pictures of the World Trade Center under attack would be shown every day so that we would not forget. When was the last time anyone saw those? We're told that it's too traumatic for those images to be seen now! I think that's not why we don't see them, if we did we'd have to remember and that the battle isn't over and there's work to be done.
Remember in WWII there were more losses in 1 day's battle than what we've lost in the entire time since the military effort started in Afghanistan and Iraq. We seem to have such short memories and are so easily swayed by those who, I believe, do not have the best interests of this country at heart. One American death or injury is too many, but if our enemies are willing to do whatever it takes, can we do less??? |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 13 2009 : 7:32:54 PM
|
Intentions aside, it's a sad fact we would be INCAPABLE of fighting a war such as WWII today.
NOT because of any lack of will, perhaps; but from the sheer impossibility of it. Very recently I returned to WWII which was an interest of my childhood and teen years, after concentrating the past 40 years ( ! ) on the Civil War, Revolution, and Napoleonic periods. I had never before realized the extreme importance of the U.S. as "The Arsenal of Democracy", despite having heard the term ad infinitum. Who made the smallarms used to arm the troops? Companies like Oster, who made machine guns! What about all the uniforms? The woolen mills of North Carolina! WHERE is EVERYTHING made today? Only IF we were fighting alongside the Chinese ( instead of the more likely FIGHTING the Chinese! ) could we get ANYTHING produced!
Could we produce a fleet of transport ships from NOTHING, as Henry Kaiser did? Could the incompetents in Detroit again produce tanks, trucks, jeeps, etc., etc. in any kind of quantity? Could the near-bankrupt economy PAY for any of it? Could we send fleets of battleships, carriers and transports SIMULTANEOUSLY to the Pacific islands like Guadalcanal AND also to North Africa? THAT'S why we're limited to "small-scale" affairs like Iraq and Afganistan! We're totally incapable of making such a tremendous effort ever again; and mostly from the greed and shortsightedness of our political and industrial leaders of the past 30 or 40 years who continue to put profit above ALL else! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
blackfootblood
Devoted Tribal Member
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 22 2007
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 13 2009 : 7:41:29 PM
|
| Good topic, Di-mc! I do tend to agree with you and everything else said above. The one thing that draws me to LOTM is the simple fact, things were so different back then and how I wish I could experience just one day of that time period. People nowadays have definitely become soft! Now don't get me wrong, not all people are soft, trust me, I know a few rough and tough folks out there yet. But a lot of people in todays society have become too sensitive to the reality of things. Everything has to be politically correct. I for one, get so tired of the corruption of politics, wall street, and high-end businesses that make common folk suffer for their bad actions. So like WW said, I do think that American spirit is sleeping and we are just waiting for the right time to stand up and fight for what is right. Hopefully we can regain some of the common sense many Americans have lost over the years. |
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain!"
"Live well, love much, laugh often!" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 13 2009 : 7:43:43 PM
|
| What a fine kettle of fish! From being unapologetically the world's greatest, who defeated Hitler, Tojo, et al and showing the world what freedom can accomplish to 60+ years later, standing in front of a German audience apologizing for being American. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 13 2009 : 8:53:59 PM
|
| Actually, blackfootblood, things weren't TOTALLY different, even then! One of the most enlightening things you could ever hope to read on "our" period is Private Yankee Doodle, the Revolutionary memoirs of Joseph Plumb Martin. In it he recounts the incompetence, callousness, and greed he encountered on a regular basis as a soldier in the Continental Army from New York in '76 to his eventual discharge with neither pay nor promised land grants in '82 or '83. He stayed in as long as he did, partly because he was a SUBSTITUTE for some slob who didn't want to go to the army! By the end, all the Patriots of '75 & '76 were HOME except for homeless kids like Martin. ( He was only 15 when he first enlisted! ) Most of the New Englanders quit once the redcoats were gone from Boston in '76, unless they were like him. ( He was from Connecticut. ) And George Washington fought MANY more battles with the financially strapped Congress than he EVER did with the British. And it should be with great satisfaction that Fitzhugh Williams can "remind" Wilderness Woman that the United States could not possibly have ever won without the money, arms, troops, and especially fleet provided by France! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Bookworm
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
February 10 2004
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 14 2009 : 07:00:56 AM
|
| Good point, James. My dad enlisted in the Army in the summer of 1941 and eventually served in the China-Burma-India theater. After he died in 2001, I began reading his letters home with the thought that perhaps I could transcribe them and then make them available to the tiny little historical museum in his hometown. I soon decided that it might be unwise to do so, as he criticized a number of local guys who suddenly decided to get married or take up farming in order to avoid being drafted. The more things change . . . . |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kay
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
January 06 2009
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 14 2009 : 1:03:51 PM
|
I agree that LOTM and and early America is extremely inspiring because it is so uniquely American. No other country or people in the history of the world has a history or story like we have to tell. I am very proud of this. The same evils, negative views, and negative kind of people existed then as they do today-no generation can escape what is part of human nature-but that time period-even the more recent WWII generation still seems...different...a little better. I think a lot of Americans today have a false or distorted sense of patriotism/American spirit. It seems esp. now that we are involved in a war that people think patriotism is just getting even for Sept. 11th or supporting the war and if someone doesn't support the war they aren't patriotic and don't deserve to be American. My definition of patriotism is having a strong sense of our history and having concern for the welfare of our country and the direction it is headed-even if it means disagreeing with the government and the military. Good patriotism isn't flaring up like a blaze for a short time because of one event then dies down and it isn't loud (like proclaiming to be patriotic and this and that). It should be a constant feeling nurtured from birth that stays a steady, slow burning, quiet flame. I don't think anyone has the right to shout and loudly declare patriotism and when you ask them a question about America's history they can't answer or they don't know the important events and people in their country's history. I have encountered so many people that don't know who Abraham Lincoln is or when the Civil War was fought. I know you'll want to laugh because it sounds so unbelievable but I swear I'm telling the truth. If they don't know this then they don't have a clue about the F&I War and how important it is. I'm afraid that the common sense and awareness needed to bring America back to where it was or what it was originally suppose to be has left most people and it might take another revolution from the few w/ these qualities left to help the country now and in the future. And I'm not just talking about politics and military but day to day living and survival and all the "lost arts" of living and taking care of yourself and your family if all the (in my opinion) unnecessary technology was no longer available. Could we build a house with our own two hands and grow and cook our own food? Could we take care of sickness without running to the hospital for every little cut and scrape? Could we sew our own clothes? The list goes on with all kinds of long forgotten details. A lot of the day to day things that early Americans did is what is so inspiring-they could proudly show the fruits of their efforts from their own two hands-how many of us can do that today?
Kay |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 14 2009 : 1:12:56 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by James N.
And it should be with great satisfaction that Fitzhugh Williams can "remind" Wilderness Woman that the United States could not possibly have ever won without the money, arms, troops, and especially fleet provided by France!
Ah! There is no need for Miss-yer Lay-Fran-Say to remind me of that fact, James, for I am very well aware of it. And during that time period, I would be among the first to recognize the French as our allies and to thank them most heartily for their very valuable assistance to our Patriot Cause. In truth, I would be indebted to them.
However, you will understand that 20 years earlier, I could not possibly entertain such kind and generous thoughts against our Mortal Enemy! For then, I was still a loyal subject of the Crown of England, and as such, had sworn to distance myself from all things French, and, in fact, to hate and fear them above all else. Therefore, my (feigned) dislike of Lay-Fran-Say and his fellow countrymen is most appropriate.
 |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 14 2009 : 2:16:20 PM
|
We like to think that the past and its people were somehow "different" or "better" than we are; unfortunately, the more you know about it, the more you realize it just isn't so. Using "our" own Colonial/Revolutionary period as the example, you couldn't POSSIBLY find more or greater incidences of greed, incompetence, indifference, and corruption. Fortunately for us, a LOT of that - but by NO means all - was on the side of our erstwhile enemies, Britian and France.
I deliberately "poked fun" at Wonder Woman's expense; but Fitz Williams couldn't possibly deny that New France in the persons of its Gouvernor-General, the Marquis de Vaudreuil, and especially the Intendant-General Bigot had as corrupt a government as could possibly be envisioned: they make the current goings-on in Illinois look like the work of a bunch of amateurs! By continously fleecing the colony they were supposedly in care of they hastened the end, even if they might've been unable to completely avoid it. If Parkman is to be believed, Montcalm and Levis actively HATED these jerks who did so much to oppose their measures because they went against their own interests. More recent historians are more likely to give Vaudreuil a little slack; but I don't think anything could exhonorate Bigot, who as Intendent controlled all the finances in Canada entirely for his own benefit. And many of their subordinates emulated the example as fully as possible!
No mention of corruption could possibly fail to cite Lord Sandwich ( of island and snack fame! ) and his decades-long mismanagement of the Royal Navy, once pride of the Empire, which by the Revolution was mostly so many rotting hulks captained by senile old fools like Graves, Arbuthnot, and others who should've been retired LONG before! ( Nelson was only a VERY young officer at the time, a LONG way from Trafalgar! ) The military governors of occuppied New York like Gen. Robertson ( "Old Clip" ) and the Comissioner of prisoners Loring ( best known as cuckolded husband to Sir Wm. Howe's mistress! ) starved their wards literally to death by the thousands and enriched themselves in all sorts of clever ways.
Of course, we EXPECT such things from the "dastardly" French & English; but the same behavior is to be found on "our" side. Kay's reading of Penn. history has no doubt encountered that fine, noble set of pacifist idealists, the Quakers who controlled the colony. But it was FINE by them to fleece the British armies of Forbes, Braddock, and Bouquet who'd come to protect them from the Indians! Only when Benjamin Franklin took charge of supplies "furnished" ( sold, not given! ) by the colony, were the worst of the abuses and overcharging overcome. ( And NO DOUBT he TOO made a handsome profit! )
Not to forget our paragon of VIRTUE personified, George, who as a young man engaged in several VERY questionable deals involving his greatest weakness, a passion for land speculation. At one point, he surreptuously tried to buy up the land grants from his soldiers in the Virginia Regiment of the F&I War at a fraction of their value. He was reputed by the outbreak of Revolution to be the largest landowner in the entire colonies! This is NOT to knock his indispensible contributions,; but to point out that even the greatest idols may, indeed, have "feet of clay"!
Of course, no aspect of the period could possibly be worse than conditions in the South ( and to a lesser extent every colony ) where our "first" civil war raged, as Tories and Whigs fought the most savage kinds of guerrilla warfare, very often pitting neighbor vs. neighbor. The Jerseys and Westchester areas suffered throughout the war; other areas, whenever the armies passed nearby. Destruction of property was carried out widely by both sides; it took the "new" country decades in some places to recover, exactly like the South in the later Civil War. Unlike blackfootblood, I'm only TOO happy NOT to be able to truly live this time period - it reminds me FAR too much of the old Chinese curse, "May you live in INTERESTING times!"
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kay
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
January 06 2009
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 14 2009 : 3:24:09 PM
|
James, I totally understand and agree with your comment on the Quakers. I never would have thought that such a religious community could wreak such havoc and cause so much trouble! Even good old William Penn made a handsome profit and got away with not paying taxes as a land owner. He had friends in high places. Sounds just like today. And the Treaty of Easton! The Quakers always had to be involved in them. Meeting after meeting in Easton and still nobody ended up happy-that sure didn't work. And Washington-I'm just learning about how much land he had his eyes on. I never knew that the Ohio Company of Virginia existed and that Virginia wanted (or claimed) what is now Pittsburgh and southwestern PA. That for a while there was even a short war between PA and VA right before we got really involved in the Revolution and that is what halted the fight. I never realized how big a part not only Washington but whole companies of Virginia militia played in the F&I war in PA. I can't wait to find out more!
Kay |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 14 2009 : 4:19:03 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by James N.
I deliberately "poked fun" at Wonder Woman's expense;...
Er....... Wonder Woman ???  I've been called several things here in Mohicanland, especially when I was a moderator, but I've never been called that! Until now.
Hmmmmm...... most interesting.
 |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 14 2009 : 6:33:22 PM
|
Sorry 'bout THAT, Wilderness; mentally I usually think of you as WW - when I spelled it out I just had the WRONG image in mind, I guess. ( Play around with THAT in your mind for awhile - bet SHE could teach Magua a thing or two! ) I suppose since I'm also a fan of anime, manga, and comics it was only natural!
Kay, you usually hear about how unprepared and unqualified Washington was to be commander-in-chief, based on his well-known poor performance at Ft. Necessity and his very brief stint as Braddock's aide, as if that was his only military experience prior to the Revolution. ( He said himself he didn't think he was up to the job! ) What gets overlooked is that he had commanded a larger force than any other colonial officer while under Forbes - he led the brigade of now TWO regiments of Virginia militia, while Boquet led the British regulars. On paper that's almost 2000 men, a large force for the time. ( Even if there were never that many actually present. )
He was also something of a jerk in that campaign because he kept trying to persuade Forbes & Boquet to use Braddock's Road instead of building the NEW Forbes' Road. That's because he & his partners in the Ohio Company wanted to "keep" the route to the Forks firmly in their hands, and not "share" it with the hated Pennsylvanians! Supposedly he took their refusal somewhat personally and pouted about it, at least in some of his letters. ( You HAVE to cut him some slack, though - he was still only in his twenties. ) With that command of a brigade, plus his command of the outposts down the Shennandoah during the time represented in Mohicans; those combined made him the most experienced of ANY other colonial officer except Sir William Johnson. ( But Johnson was a Tory, and had died in '74. )
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 14 2009 : 8:54:22 PM
|
And later Washington bought the land around what had been Fort Necessity because he thought it would become a major route west, but it never amounted to much. And his expense reports from the Rev War era have been called the first works of American fiction. But they can't compare to his report about the Joumonville Glenn affair.
It has been said that if Vaudreuil had been allowed to utilize the Canadiens and Langlade as he wanted to, the British would have suffered a disaster at Qubec. There was one point where Wolfe and a large number of troupes would have been captured. But bureaucracy got in the way. If Montcalm had waited on Bouganville, the battle would have gone differently. So Montcalm was not necessarily the good guy and Vaudreuil the bad one. And I heard Bigot ably defended by some folks at Louisbourg this summer. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 16 2006
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 14 2009 : 11:41:00 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
..... Therefore, my (feigned) dislike of Lay-Fran-Say and his fellow countrymen is most appropriate.
I told you that they had a special relationship! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 15 2009 : 1:29:24 PM
|
I love this board!! So many people who know history and appreciate it. Back to the "spirit" of LOTM. I guess that's what my original post was about - spirit. Not patriotism as some now imagine it, but the idea of something worth striving for, is what I think about our country's original people. Of course it's true, people are people and then there were the same types we have today. There were low lifes and scallywags then too, but there was an idea and a spirit that wasn't about to be ignored. One of Nathaniel's lines "I don't call myself subject to much...." expresses that idea.
Obviously, there's a reason this film has affected so many of us. Perhaps this idea of "spirit" may be part of it.
Thanks to all who responded!!! |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Longrifle
Pioneer
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
April 23 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 16 2009 : 12:46:59 AM
|
I've posted this before on another thread. I'll add it here again for the sake of discussion (or controversy  ). Although it's specifically about democracy I think it might be relevant to the subject of spirit. It's called The Downfall of Democracies. The authorship is uncertain, but it's often attributed to Scottish history professor Alexander Tyler in 1770.
"A democracy is always temporary in nature: it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority will always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1) From bondage to spiritual faith;
2) From spiritual faith to great courage;
3) From courage to liberty;
4) From liberty to abundance;
5) From abundance to complacency;
6) From complacency to apathy;
7) From apathy to dependence;
8) From dependency back into bondage."
I would say that the spirit displayed in the colonial era and represented by LOTM encompasses steps 1,2, and 3 from the above list. |
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days." - Daniel Boone |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 16 2009 : 11:58:19 AM
|
Very interesting proposition, Longrifle; though if strictly adhered to we would've passed back into slavery during the Carter administration. Why that didn't happen probably has less to do with the time this was written ( if your attribution is correct ), when the monarchies and societies of Europe were more-or-less stable and mostly agricultural; than it does the particular situation of our "new" country in the New World. This is most persuasively argued by historian Frederick Jackson Turner, who's theory of the Frontier suggested that ALL American history prior to 1900 could be summed up as what in the 1840's came to be known as Manifest Destiny: simply stated, the drive to "conquer" and occupy the continent coast-to-coast. In 1890, he declared the Frontier period "closed", based on population density of ALL the contiguous states and territories. In other words, many were too BUSY in one form or another to let the progression follow this timeline. ( Think about it: virtually ALL the great inventions and developments in this period - from railroads and steamboats to telegraphy, telephone, McCormack's reaper, steel plows, etc. - were used to "subdue" the West. )
It's hard to appreciate, but even during other national "distractions" like our Civil War westward expansion continued unabated: the most significant piece of social legislation at that time was NOT the Emancipation Proclaimation, affecting as it did at the time some 3 million slaves and 9 million white southerners; but rather the Homestead Act, also passed in 1862. More than any other calamity this was the death-knell of the way of life of the Plains Tribes; and, since they were the last, by extension that of all the Native Americans. And it's no accident that Custer didn't start to become a "villian" of American history until the cynical 1930's at the height of the Depression, once all the tribes were safely "out of the way". During this period he stood positively as the symbol of sacrifices necessary to remove the "obsticles" necessary to fulfill that Destiny.
If Turner is correct, as I think he is, that puts the timeline for #5 up until WWI or so; maybe the Roaring Twenties at the latest. But then you have ( as now ) the Great Depression retarding this clean and logical progression. ( Not to mention the various "Panics" and recessions of the previous century. ) I would suggest that #6 in this model really doesn't start until AFTER the social legislation of the New Deal and Great Society kick in during the post-WWII era. So it MAY be that we still have a way to go before realizing this gloomy forecast; always with the possibility of other factors "getting in the way".
Personally, I hope to go out somewhere between "apathy" and "dependence", as MY Social Security is SUPPOSED to begin in a couple of weeks! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 16 2009 : 12:35:04 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by di-mc
...the "spirit" of LOTM. I guess that's what my original post was about - spirit. Not patriotism as some now imagine it, but the idea of something worth striving for, is what I think about our country's original people.
I believe the two go hand in hand, and you can't have one without the other. Having the American Spirit creates Patriotism. And Patriotism cannot happen without the American Spirit behind it and supporting it. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
| report to moderator |
|
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 16 2009 : 4:23:11 PM
|
Longrifle:
My signature line has something to that effect from Thomas Jefferson. I also think of Rome - "bread & circus" which was perhaps as much or more the reason for the downfall as the invading hordes. This past election clearly shows what people want, not freedom, but a nanny state - cradle to grave. I think we're done, sadly. We will become a version of the European socialist countries. And, aren't they doing well? |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 16 2009 : 5:27:52 PM
|
di-mc,
"Bread and Circuses" is one of my FAVORITE concepts to use to try ( vainly ) to convince people that that is ALL the national OBSESSION with all sports ( but especially FOO'BAW ) is; coupled more recently with travesties like Dancing With the Stars, Desperate Housewives, The Bachelor, Talent Search, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Of course we have the merchandisers largely to thank for this state of affairs! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 16 2009 : 10:40:10 PM
|
James,
Keep the populace focused on things like the Super(Stupid)Bowl, Dancing with the Stars, etc. will keep their minds occupied and not concerned with things like - the new Treasury Sec. is a tax dodger, Bill Ayers, a good friend of the incoming president is an unrepentent terrorist, the Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae top people were cooking the books, and the list goes on..... |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
| report to moderator |
|
|
richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - January 17 2009 : 09:15:20 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by di-mc
This all has taken me a little while to fully develop the reasons why LOTM resonates with so many of us. Obviously, it's a great story, beautifully brought to life in film with great actors, unsurpassed scenery and wonderful music.
But, it's more, isn't it? At least it is for me. It's about the American spirit, that "can do anything" spirit. We have much to be grateful for; those who came before us and brought forth this nation we call home. But, it's still more, and I'm afraid it may be the realization that we wouldn't be able to do it now. Have we become too soft? I think we have. I think we are so fat and happy that we would not do what those people in the Revolution and those pre-Revolution sacrificed and were able to achieve. Could we hold on to an idea, a goal after a year or two passed and success still far off?
Think of World War II, our parents and grandparents fought in the war and did what was necessary here at home to win for years and the final outcome unknown. It was very possible that we would not be the victors. But they didn't throw in the towel after many battles; they kept up the fight. Could we? I doubt it.
Am I wrong? I don't think so. Today our national resolve is easily swayed by forces that don't know and/or understand what's at stake and nothing seems worth fighting for. What was important last year, isn't holding our attention now.
Is the American spirit of the past truly over? What do you think?
Extraordinary question/topic, Diane. LOTM certainly captures that American Spirit, whatever it is, in a nutshell. I am very perturbed over the seemingly short memories of the vast majority - though thankfully, not all - Americans. As a group, we cannot remember seven and a half years ago, not to mention what happened in 1757. I am happy to hear your 9/11 comments - I think LOTM and 9/11 are very much connected - in a Spiritual-sense - which is one reason I have a section on this site on 9/11.
I guess the good news is that for however short-term it may last, the sleeping giant can still be aroused! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
di-mc
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2008
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 17 2009 : 1:06:11 PM
|
So happy to read your comment Rich! I'm honored!
As to remembering 9-11, and what happened in 1757, is American history taught in schools today? Or is it revisionist American history? From what I've heard, it's the later. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
| report to moderator |
|
|
James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 19 2009 : 09:19:00 AM
|
In MY area it's NEITHER: in the local high school virtually ALL the teachers are COACHES! In fact the whole stupid town is currently writhing in ecstacy because the foo'baw team won STATE in their division - isn't that EXCITING! When I first came here years ago, I asked if there were any openings in secondary education in my teaching field. ( Which, in case you can't guess, is American History. ) I was told, yes, as a matter of fact there WAS: History and COACHING! When I next asked the secretary what the one had to do with the other, she replied, "Well it's been that way a LONG time." No kidding!
This is just another example of how the best intentions are twisted when you make them into a law. Supposedly to prevent school administrations going overboard in staffing their athletic departments, the State of Texas in its infinite wisdom decreed that you couldn't hire someone as a COACH; but only as a teacher. If they then happened to coach something, that was OK. In a system where virtually all the teachers are coaches, what do you think the criterion for being a teacher is - how well you know or understand history and can impart it to your students?
Whenever I voice this long-standing complaint I always get the same response: heads nodding in knowing rememberance of the ignorance of their own teacher-coaches. And WHY is it that history in particular seems to have this problem? Because, you see, if you actually need to KNOW something, a foriegn language for example, I guess you HAVE to hire someone who can speak the language. But ANYONE can teach history - all they need's a book with the names and dates in it! One of my former reenacting friends is a specialist on the U.S.-Mexican War and has been for several years curator at the Alamo, Dr. Bruce Winders. But while working on his doctorate, he taught in a high school of the Ft. Worth suburb where he lived. History, of course, right? Because he needed to learn it for his area of historical interest, instead of getting to impart his considerable knowledge of his specialized area of historical expertise, he was given the job of teaching SPANISH; I'm sure they already had coaches teaching history! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!] |
© 1997-2025 - Mohican Press |
|
|
| Current Mohicanland page raised in 0.77 seconds |
 |
|
LOTM and our American spirit.
