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Mountain Man
Colonial Settler
USA
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 Posted - March 14 2006 : 11:24:07 PM
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Poll Question:
He must have known that he didn’t stand a chance against Magua & the Hurons. So what was the real reason why Duncan stayed behind and didn't jump with the others?
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Magua said, understand English very well. |
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Irishgirl
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - March 14 2006 : 11:45:09 PM
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| Great question MM. I voted that he felt it was his duty to stay with the women and protect them otherwise he would have jumped too. By this stage he must have known he didn't stand any chance of winning Cora's heart especially after the way Nathaniel and Cora kissed under the falls and their heartfelt goodbyes to each other. Besides, our heroes would never have jumped if Duncan was going to join them and leave the women alone. He really didn't have any other choice in the matter other than to stay put. No wonder he gave out about their decision to leave them behind. He was pissed that he could not go too. |
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paazau
Colonial Settler
Australia
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Posted - March 15 2006 : 04:29:55 AM
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| HI Mountain Man, I agree with Irishgirl and also voted that he felt it was his duty to stay. We see from his comments to General Webb about "British policy making the world England" that he is a British Officer through and through. He truly knows by this time that Cora is lost to him, but he still has to 'do the right thing'. He's known and looked after these women for years. Besides, he couldn't have survived jumping into the falls - Nathaniel, Uncas and Chingachkook struggled as it was and Duncan isn't half the outdoorsmen they are. He's totally out of his element. I mean, just notice the way his oar turns when he's paddling the canoe - he may be a fine officer and soldier, but he's got no hope in the woods. JMHO. |
"You do not know what you're saying girl!"
"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - March 15 2006 : 07:53:01 AM
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| He was afraid of heights, ... |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - March 15 2006 : 08:23:33 AM
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| He wasn't invited... |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Mountain Man
Colonial Settler
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Posted - March 15 2006 : 8:26:30 PM
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| Invitation or not, I would have been doing a cannonball over those falls. To hell with chivalry when being confronted with Magua & that bunch of cutthroats. After hearing what Hawkeye told Cora about her & Alice being taken to the Huron village, Duncan should have realized it was pointless for him to stay behind. He had a much better chance of survival by jumping. I do believe though, he stayed because he felt it his duty as a British officer, and as we see in the end, he still did have feelings for Cora. |
Magua said, understand English very well. |
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cuthron
Pathfinder
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Posted - March 17 2006 : 04:46:12 AM
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It was his duty to stay as the protector of the woman. And he wasn't bad swimmer. Again i have to quote the parts of the book, when uncas, hawkeye and chingachgook were gone:
After the last look at Uncas, Cora turned and, with a quivering lip, adressed herself to heyward. *I have heard of your boasted skill in the water, too, Duncan* she said. *Follow, then, the wise example set you by these simple and faithful beings.*
*Is such the faith that Cora Munro would exact from her protector?* said the young man, smiling mournfully, but with bitterness.
and little later:
*there are evils worse than death,* said duncan, speaking hoarsely, and as if fretful at her importunity, *but which the precence of one who would die in your behalf may avert* |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
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Posted - March 17 2006 : 06:02:55 AM
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| It wasn't in the script. |
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Seamus
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Mountain Man
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Posted - March 17 2006 : 10:44:25 PM
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| Thank you! Seamus |
Magua said, understand English very well. |
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paazau
Colonial Settler
Australia
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Posted - March 18 2006 : 05:13:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Seamus
It wasn't in the script.
But interestingly enough, in the earlier script there is a conversation between Cora and Duncan at the Poltroon's house.. I quote here-
"CORA: I'm embarrassed to be so indecisive ... after so long apart and after you've traveled so far ...
HEYWARD: And by sea!
CORA: You still have an aversion to the water?
HEYWARD: Aversion? No. ... "Hatred" ... "Loathing" ... "
Would you say that puts a new aspect on his decision to stay behind.. He's afraid to get his feet wet.
Shaz |
"You do not know what you're saying girl!"
"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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Mountain Man
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Posted - March 18 2006 : 07:08:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by paazau
Would you say that puts a new aspect on his decision to stay behind.. He's afraid to get his feet wet.
I see your point paasau, but a fear of water didn’t stop him earlier when escaping by canoe, I can’t imagine then, that it would stop him now, especially knowing that a band of blood thirsty Hurons will soon be showing up to do God knows what to him. If that!, doesn’t make you get over your fear of water in a hurry! . . . then I don’t know what does. |
Magua said, understand English very well. |
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paazau
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Posted - March 18 2006 : 07:29:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man
I see your point paasau, but a fear of water didn’t stop him earlier when escaping by canoe, I can’t imagine then, that it would stop him now, especially knowing that a band of blood thirsty Hurons will soon be showing up to do God knows what to him. If that!, doesn’t make you get over your fear of water in a hurry! . . . then I don’t know what does.
You're right MM, his fear didn't stop him getting into the canoe, but being in a vessel (regardless how small) is different than jumping into a torrential waterfall. Knowing the Huron were on the way would be a good enough reason for me if I had a fear of water, let me tell you! I'd be the first to jump! Magua's not someone I'd like to be on the wrong side of. Better yet, Uncas should have stayed in the canoe with the others; maybe the Hurons would have caught Duncan and the other redcoat and spent some time killing them, giving the others a chance to get further away than the cave behind the waterfall. |
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"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - March 18 2006 : 11:01:37 PM
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| Interesting find in that early script, Paazau. I didn't remember reading that. But it makes me think, being serious now, that Duncan simply couldn't swim. If I couldn't swim, I would think very seriously about plunging through a rushing waterfall into the murky, swirling depths below. Shudder!!! |
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paazau
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Posted - March 19 2006 : 06:29:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
Interesting find in that early script, Paazau. I didn't remember reading that. But it makes me think, being serious now, that Duncan simply couldn't swim. If I couldn't swim, I would think very seriously about plunging through a rushing waterfall into the murky, swirling depths below. Shudder!!!
That's a very real possibility. Not sure what the 'norm' was on folks knowing how to swim in Britain in the 18th century. Do you have any idea Wilderness Woman?? |
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"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - March 19 2006 : 09:07:23 AM
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I really don't know, Paazau. I would think it depended on several factors, such as class, gender, whether living in the city or the countryside, etc. But I can give you an interesting tidbit about an 18th century American (Kurt, are you listening?):
"Benjamin Franklin is our only Founding Father in the International Swimming Hall of Fame. At a time when most sailors couldn’t swim, Franklin taught himself to swim from a book and then, true to form, set out to improve on the process, even inventing a few new strokes."
and...
"An avid swimmer, Franklin was drawn to water at a young age and consistently promoted the healthy benefits of the exercise in his later writings. At the ripe old age of 11 he invented a pair of fins that, unlike today's modern flippers, were strapped to the swimmer's hands to help make each stroke more efficient."
and...
"In 1716, long before Jacques Cousteau surfaced with rubber swim fins, 11-year-old Benjamin Franklin invented his own wooden fins in an era when swimming was associated with death.
In 1726, while stranded in London, Franklin at the age of 20, demonstrated his swim feats by swimming the Thames River from Chelsea to Blackfriars, a distance of 3+ miles. In addition to his marathon swim, he wrote that he "performed many feats of activity, both upon and under water, that surprised and pleased those (who were watching).
Franklin continued to swim throughout his lifetime. At the age of 80 he taught his grandson, Benny Bache, how to swim. Benny fondly noted in his diary, "My grandfather is not like other old people." As his grandson correctly surmised, Franklin's swimming skills would subsequently prove to be invaluable for the developing new nation. According to historian Cecil Currey, Franklin, while in Paris (1776 - 1785) seeking financial help from France to help George Washington's fledging army fight off the British, even at his advanced age, cleverly used his swimming skills to elude English spies by swimming the Seine River, meeting his contacts on a floating river barge."
Now, Ben was definitely one who marched to the beat of a different drummer, and I think we can safely assume that he was considered to be a rarity in this respect (and in many others!). But what I found most interesting in the above quotes were the two references to the prevailing attitude about swimming in that day. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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Posted - March 19 2006 : 10:19:47 AM
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| Quite interesting WW, - and you're right about most sailors & fishermen not being swimmers. There was really almost no point to it for them. The North Atlantic is so cold, especiqally in winter, that survival time is measured in minutes, "around" five or so. Survival suits have changed that during the last twenty years or so. ... In fact back in Bens' day, I believe taking a bath was not something most folks did on a regular basis, - let alone a dip just for the h*ll of it. |
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Bookworm
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Posted - March 19 2006 : 2:11:57 PM
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| As to why Duncan didn't jump: Since this was apparently his first trip to "the Americas," he had little knowledge, and therefore no appreciation, of our heroes' wilderness survival skills. It wouldn't have occurred to him that they intended to leap into the falls, swim to shore, pick up the track of Magua's party, and follow them on the run, eventually to arrive at the Huron camp and, somehow, rescue the women. Duncan simply thought they were "Cowards!" abandoning the women to their gruesome fate, and so he stayed behind to offer Cora and Alice whatever degree of protection he could. I think that in this instance, Duncan was as brave as our heroes -- he just didn't read the situation correctly. |
Bookworm
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paazau
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Posted - March 21 2006 : 03:49:11 AM
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Thanks for that info WW! Interesting... I do vaguely recall in the back of my mind somewhere that sailors weren't swimmers in that era but didn't realise it extended to most of the populace. Swimming associated with death... that's fascinating. How things have changed, eh?
Ben F was definitely a different kind of man. 
Shaz |
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"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - March 21 2006 : 10:18:32 AM
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Yes, we Americans are quite fond of ol' Ben. An amazing man!
I think that Bookworm has hit the nail right on the head. Doesn't Duncan say something about them being cowards? I don't know why I can't remember, since you would think I would have the whole movie memorized by now.
Well stated, BW! |
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Lya Heyward
Lost in the Wilderness
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Posted - March 21 2006 : 12:21:06 PM
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| Well, in the movie, you can see that Duncan was a stubborn ass at times. Now as much as I love this man, I must say that it was his stubborn pride not to jump. If he jumped, it would have indicated that he was a coward. Cowardness is Duncan's major weakness. But, we do see a break in that cowardness because he sacrifices his life for Cora. Hmmm...something to think about, isn't it? |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - March 21 2006 : 1:54:54 PM
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| Lya no one can say you are a coward. I admire you for having the guts to stick up for "your guy" when the majority on the board do not think too highly of him. You go girl and defend your man to the end. |
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paazau
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Posted - March 22 2006 : 9:55:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookworm
It wouldn't have occurred to him that they intended to leap into the falls, swim to shore, pick up the track of Magua's party, and follow them on the run, eventually to arrive at the Huron camp and, somehow, rescue the women. Duncan simply thought they were "Cowards!" abandoning the women to their gruesome fate, and so he stayed behind to offer Cora and Alice whatever degree of protection he could. I think that in this instance, Duncan was as brave as our heroes -- he just didn't read the situation correctly.
hmmm, interesting thought Bookworm. But could he have thought Hawkeye loved Cora so little that he would just abandon her to whatever Magua had in mind? How much of their conversation would Duncan have overheard? I do believe he stayed out of duty; it was 'the right thing' to do. Although I'm baffled as to why he was already on the lake in a canoe before the others. Did he have a sudden attack of cowardice when he saw his company was overrun by the Indians??? |
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"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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paazau
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Posted - March 22 2006 : 10:27:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lya Heyward
But, we do see a break in that cowardness because he sacrifices his life for Cora. Hmmm...something to think about, isn't it?
I've watched the Huron Village scene with fresh eyes and tried not to carry my general dislike towards Duncan into it with me... I have to say I've had a turn of thoughts on his actions here. If we take everything all together, Cora's rejection of Duncan, her defending Hawkeye helping the milita leave, Duncan's retreat from the massacre without Cora, Duncan's outburst under the falls (Cowards!!), Hawkeye's vow to find Cora whatever it takes (did Duncan hear this or not???), Hawkeye's arrival in the Huron Village, and this is the bit that's caused me to rethink things:
Duncan's reaction after Hawkeye's words "Would the Huron have greed for more land than a man can use?" - we specifically see Duncan look at Hawkeye after he speaks these words, whereas I don't think we don't see his reaction to any of the other statements. Has Duncan been taking in and thinking about what he's translating??? Is this a turning point in Duncan's thinking??
Hawkeye then asks for the women and Duncan to be set free; and then offers himself in Cora's place but Duncan translates and offers himself. I said before I thought Duncan's motives for offering himself were "for appearances only" but I'm not entirely sure on that now. Has he seen the light, so to speak.... either in the error of the British treatment of the Indians, or in the true strength of Hawkeye's love for Cora....
What do the rest of you think???? |
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"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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Bookworm
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Posted - March 23 2006 : 08:12:34 AM
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| Given that he's pointing a pistol at Hawkeye and promising to see him hanged, I've always assumed that Duncan jumped into a canoe to follow Hawkeye (and, of course, Cora). As for sacrificing himself, I think Duncan was adhering to the code of conduct expected of an officer and a gentleman, and maybe engaging in a sort of moral one-upmanship with Hawkeye -- the only kind of victory that's left to him at that point. |
Bookworm
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paazau
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Posted - March 23 2006 : 11:08:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookworm
Given that he's pointing a pistol at Hawkeye and promising to see him hanged, I've always assumed that Duncan jumped into a canoe to follow Hawkeye (and, of course, Cora).
I don't think he could have been following him. He's turning around backwards and pointing the gun at Hawkeye. Therefore he must be in front of him. And had to have a good headstart judging by the way he paddles a canoe!
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Bookworm]/i]
As for sacrificing himself, I think Duncan was adhering to the code of conduct expected of an officer and a gentleman, and maybe engaging in a sort of moral one-upmanship with Hawkeye -- the only kind of victory that's left to him at that point.
So no last minute change of heart in your opinion... ok. Thanks Bookworm! |
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"Yes I do, I know exactly what I am saying, and if it is sedition, then I am guilty of sedition too!" |
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MeggieD
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Posted - March 24 2006 : 7:30:51 PM
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| I voted for duty, but I think there was a smidgin of stubborn pride mixed in. |
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Poll: Duncan jumping
