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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
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 Posted - April 19 2004 : 10:29:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
(Geez...I'm more convinced than ever that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box)
 That's you'n me, Theresa! Two Dim Bulbs! 
Seriously, don't sell yourself short! This is just one of many issues that Biblical scholars have been arguing over for centuries. It is very confusing. All I can do is go by what our Pastor teaches and attempt to decide for myself what seems correct or the most logical... if that is possible!
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 5:36:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger
quote:
He did not foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. Is that right?
I would say He did foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. But by "foreordain," I mean that God knew what choices they would make, and permitted them to make those choices. Foreordain does not mean that God forces people do things, or that they don't have a choice in the matter.
OK, this makes sense, too. You say he knew who would make those choices and what those choices would be, but they had a choice in whether to make those choices or not...HUH? |
Theresa |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 5:46:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
OK, this makes sense, too. You say he knew who would make those choices and what those choices would be, but they had a choice in whether to make those choices or not...HUH?
Exactly, it's perfectly clear  |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 6:27:06 PM
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Yes! That's what I said, too. At least... I think that's what I said... Didn't I just say that?  Well, anyway, I tried to say that.
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 07 2002
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 8:22:46 PM
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okies...
what you're all saying has an excellent defense of logic behind it. the only thing i dont understand is... how did God know what was to come?
a king may set laws for his subjects, but these laws can be broken. when its God, we call that sin. but even assuming that God could enforce his laws absolutely, and that no one would be allowed to break the law... there are still many things within the law that one can do. its not like God writes out our lives for us, play by play... or if he did, there would be no free will, no right to choose. it would be an illusion, (like the matrix, teehee). is it that God gives us the illusion that we choose, but really plots out our lives himself? (this is starting to sound like electing the president in the US... who actually believes the citizens elect the president? hah! all illusion!)
so basically,
a. we have free will, in which case how we choose is up to us, and sometimes why we choose the way we do is unclear even to us. and i disagree that our choices coincide with our desires... how often has our hand been forced by external circomestances? yea, i want a plasma screen tv and surround sound, but if i have no money, there's really no way i can "choose" to buy it. so we are affected by the choices of others: our choices stem from previous choices made by other people, spiraling all the way back to adam and eve (which is the christian version of how we came into being). i bet god didnt see the trick with apple coming, did he? well, maybe he did. i really dont know.
OR
b. we do not have free will, God already decided everything, and our will has nothing to do with it...
so which is it?
btw, arent calvinists the ones who believe that it is preordained who will be saved and who will go to hell? just wondering...
anyways, it looks like mine is a lost argument... but i have to say that i still feel bad for Pontius Pilate... he was set up, whether it was by gods or men... :'(
oh well, im looking forward to hearing your replies.
btw, rich... i know there are a lot of movies with plenty of gore in them and no substance to them whatsoever, and i am not a fan of them. tell me... does gore add substance to a movie? id say no... so why was it necessary to plaster jesus in blood? commercial purposes? would a movie about the birth of christ be enhanced by a detailed clip of the virgin mary giving birth? in my opinion, that would be missing the point... and so is this...
and finally, two last things and ill shut up! :)
1. what made christ's death oh so special? as if the romans didnt torture and crucify their other criminals... i mean, yea, i know ppl thought he was god... but whats so special about his death?
and
2. im looking for some reading on the fall of Lucifer from heaven... anyone got any suggestions on where i should look? |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 10:33:16 PM
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what you're all saying has an excellent defense of logic behind it. the only thing i dont understand is... how did God know what was to come?
This depends on whether you believe that God is omniscient or not. I believe that he is, so that is how he knew what was to come.
i disagree that our choices coincide with our desires... how often has our hand been forced by external circomestances? yea, i want a plasma screen tv and surround sound, but if i have no money, there's really no way i can "choose" to buy it.
But Ithi, you also have the choice to cut back on other things that you buy, so that you can save money for the plasma screen. You may not have the plasma screen today or tomorrow, but by making the right choices, you will arrive at your desire.
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - April 20 2004 : 07:14:39 AM
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Ithi,
I believe that what made Christ's death so special is the resurrection. And as for why plaster Jesus with blood in this movie?...that was the way of Roman crucifixion. I believe Gibson wanted to make us feel and experience, as much as we as humans can, what Jesus did for us. |
Theresa |
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Christina
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 27 2002
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Posted - April 20 2004 : 11:28:09 AM
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I'm not going to get into my beliefs on the predestination issue, etc. at this time but I will include an interesting quote I got about this issue from a local minister. His take -- and the take of several evangelical Christians as well as Protestants, Roman Catholics and "non denominationals" I interviewed and discussed this subject with -- was that Jesus Christ HAD to be crucified and die for our sins in order for humankind to be saved, and that this fact would not have been changed whether the crucifiers were Roman, Greek, Jewish, Mesopatamian or a bunch of drunk guys from New Jersey:
(this quote was in the State Newspaper of Columbia, S.C. on Feb. 22)
"Our church members are extremely excited about this film -all the buzz and
coverage on the news is fueling the excitement," said the Rev. Bill Howard, pastor
of the 1,000-member Willowridge Church in Irmo. More than 600 members of his
church have purchased tickets for the film. Members are being asked to invite a
non-Christian, unchurched or questioning friend to attend the movie with them.
Howard said he's heard and read the worries about anti-Semitism, but thinks
they're off the mark.
"Nobody killed Christ against his will - he voluntarily gave up his life," Howard
said. "There were Jews, Romans and Gentiles present, but Christ would have given
up his life no matter who was involved. It's really all about all of us and our sin
before Christ."
The nature of whether Judas, Pontius Pilate, etc. were pawns in a predestined divine tragedy/triumph or willing agents of good and evil has been the subject of some of the most interesting debates I've heard about the whole issue.
I've of course heard opinions that differ from Howard's from other Christians and non-Christians alike, as well.
Christina |
See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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UncasLover13
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2004
Status: offline
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Posted - September 28 2004 : 9:45:33 PM
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| This movie was amazingly powerful! I balled the entire thing. It just was incredible how much he went through for us. It definitely made me pray more and definitely try to become a better Christian...and I have succeeded. That movie is wonderful! I definitely encourage people to see it! |
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chicmohic
Pathfinder
Italy
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2004
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Posted - September 29 2004 : 2:31:54 PM
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| I don't belong to any organised religion and there are parts of the New Testament I have real problems with, but I have to say I really loved this film, it is brave, moving, realistic and utterly believable. Mel Gibsons belief in this project shines through every frame. Yes it was painful to watch and yes there was a lot of blood..but for me that's just telling it like it is. Crucifixion was a vile death for anyone, let's not pretend that Jesus didn't suffer or bleed like anyone else,he did, and really that's the whole point of the film isn't it?. I wonder how many movies have sparked such debate..go and look on the IMDB site at just how many posts have been made for this film - amazing. |
'What are you looking at sir?' |
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Ellie
Pioneer
United Kingdom
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 22 2002
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Posted - April 13 2005 : 10:48:58 AM
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I wasnt sure wether to reply to this thread, or start a new one as the last post was a while ago but I guess it is relevant...
I have only just got around to seeing this film, to be honest I only rented it out as part of a rental trial with Amazon but I am so pleased I did. This film has affected me in a way I could never have anticipated and I need to get a lot of what is going on inside my head out of my system - this seemed the place to do it.
Before seeing the film I was not a religious person, I did not agree with organised religion and wanted no part of it. I wouldnt say I was athiest but pretty close, everything about religion/God/Jesus/the Bible repelled me. I have my own faiths and beleifs which are based purely around my own imagination, I guess.
After watching The Passion, something has changed. I dont think a film has ever had such an emotional and thought provoking impact on me. I have so many unanswered questions surrounding the film and the history and the story of Jesus that I have not been able to think about much else! Since Sunday, I have watched the film three times and I know I will watch it another couple of times at least before the week is out.
I beleive the film has brought the reality of Jesus home to me, it is not that I didnt beleive he existed but rather he was just a 'mythical' being - the film showed him as a real man with emotions, courage, fear and pain. I am not greatly educated in the story of Christ, I never wanted to be but now I do. Not becuase I am becoming religous, I still do not want to be part of an organised religion or faith but I beleive in this man and what he went through and that is enough for me but I have so many questions I need answered. My father is an Art historian and knows and incredible amount about Art, history adn religion and how it is all intertwined, he is not a religious man either so he can answer my questions in an objective way. I am starting to lose what my point is, but that is why I need to find out more - why is this film getting to me so much? People have often described me as a free spirit, now I am wondering if they meant lost soul?
Perhaps it was just the basic fact that the film was awe inspiring and the performances utterly compelling, especially Jim Caviezel. Perhaps if the film was based on a fictional character or another historical figure, it would still have had the same impact just without the religous curiosity. Or perhaps it is due to finding Jim Caviezel incredibly attractive as Jesus? Is that wrong? I dont mean it disrespectively at all, but I thought he was beautiful.
On a lighter note, I was watching the film yesterday evening but I was very tired so started dozing off when teh doorbell rang. It was teh gas man come to read the meter, he had long brown hair and a beard - that freaked me out! I went for a long walk to clear my head. Today at work I have had discussions with three different people about teh film and all of them have different religous beleifs, it is facinating.
I dont think I will ever be a religous person in the traditional sense, I now beleive in Jesus as man, as flesh and blood. That is it, I am very cynical about the rest of religous beleifs and what the bible says and how it can be interpreted... I guess I need to do more research - it is so confusing.
Thank you for reading this! |
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Mel Gibson's Passion -- Plan to see it?
