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Christina
Deerslayer
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 Posted - February 12 2004 : 4:36:29 PM
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Poll Question:
Mel Gibson's much-anticipated, controversial "The Passion of the Christ" opens on Feb. 25 (Ash Wednesday.) What are your plans regarding this film?
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Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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Christina
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 Posted - February 12 2004 : 4:40:29 PM
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As a religion writer, obviously I'm spending most of my time these days writing, researching, and discussing this upcoming film. We plan to attend an advance screener as well as opening day of the film. We're also having panel discussions and think pieces written for the paper. So I want to know, what do Mohicanlanders think of this upcoming film? I know what my opinions are and I've read the topic about this movie already on this board, but I'd like to get an idea of your opinions just for fun...
plus I figure this may be a topic I can discuss without getting into the hot water I would if I ventured back into world politics. So... |
See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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Highlander
Colonial Militia
USA
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - February 12 2004 : 7:09:43 PM
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| I know of many churches which have bought hundreds of advance tickets for their members to invite family and friends. At least one church I know of will have a private screening on sunday morning instead of their regular service. Many people I know believe it will be a passionate worship experience and a powerful evangelism opportunity. I think it could be both, but as I haven't seen it yet, I prefer to reserve judgement. But everything I've seen so far looks really great! |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - February 12 2004 : 8:42:25 PM
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Good poll, Christina!
I voted for option 3: I hope to be able to see it because of my religious beliefs and because I like Mel Gibson. Although, I would prefer to change the wording of the 2nd half of that to read "because of my respect for Mel Gibson." I like him, yes, but I really respect him for having the courage to take on a project such as this.
Most of you probably already know this, but I will just mention the upcoming Diane Sawyer interview with Mel that will be shown on "Prime Time", this coming Monday evening at 10:00 pm eastern time. I am most interested in seeing this, and I hope they will talk about the scene that has apparently been deleted from the movie. I don't know which scene this is, but I heard something about it being the controversial one that was causing all of the uproar.
CT-R? Do you know which scene it is? I am thinking it must be part of the "trial." |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
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Posted - February 12 2004 : 10:54:05 PM
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| I believe it was the scene where Caiaphas the High Priest, speaking for the all the people says "His blood be on us and on all our children!" Matt. 27:25 has the people saying this, but I read in the film version Caiaphas said it. Anyway, I'm not sure I believe the reports that this scene has been cut, I hope not. When will people understand that it's not just the Jews that are to blame but all mankind? I've read that the hand holding the nails hammered into Jesus is actually Mel's hand, which I think is a good touch. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Christina
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USA
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Posted - February 14 2004 : 4:46:06 PM
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I don't know what to believe about this scene being cut. Some media sources including some religious publications are reporting that the scene (yes, it's the one with Caiaphas and the "blood curse " line) has been cut; others are saying Gibson was "considering" cutting it. This was the latest I saw from a good story in the Fort Worth Star Telegram yesterday:
A Gibson spokesman said final editing would be completed soon. Gibson has reportedly decided to delete the high priest's "blood curse" utterance. People also will be watching to see whether he follows a pastor's advice to add a line at the fade-out ("During the Roman occupation, 250,000 Jews were crucified by the Romans, but only One rose from the dead") to ease concerns about anti-Semitism.
I really would hate it if Gibson removed the scene after all these months of controversy and commitment. To buckle to pressure groups after all this time would be a big disappointment. I also don't think this final line needs to be added. I hope it's not. Any religious theology aside, I really hope people would wait to reserve judgment on this film until they see it. I was very pleased with an interview I did yesterday with a local rabbi who was condemning all the advance criticism of a film most people haven't seen and said he would refuse to give ANY opinion until he'd seen it -- he also wished more of his fellow rabbis had taken this advice. He plans to attend the movie with a local Catholic congregation adn then participate in a panel discussion afterward. My favorite quote from him: "I do know that all this has had me going back and studying my New Testament. One thing I'll say for Mel Gibson -- he's got more Jews reading the Christian Bible over this than you would believe!"
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See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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Highlander
Colonial Militia
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Posted - February 15 2004 : 05:35:27 AM
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I don't think that Mel should cut anything.There are some people who are offended no matter what is done .If they don't like it,then they shouldn't see it.The solution is obvious. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - February 15 2004 : 08:42:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christina
My favorite quote from him: "I do know that all this has had me going back and studying my New Testament. One thing I'll say for Mel Gibson -- he's got more Jews reading the Christian Bible over this than you would believe!"
I find this comment extremely interesting! Hmmmmmmm.... God doth work in mysterious ways! |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 17 2004 : 1:03:51 PM
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| Did anyone see the interview last night? Any thoughts and comments? |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
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Posted - February 17 2004 : 1:10:53 PM
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Hi WW,
I wasn't able to watch it last night but I did tape it. I plan on watching it tonight.
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
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Posted - February 17 2004 : 2:26:50 PM
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| I do not plan to see it.......I've read the Book.........what else can be said?? |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - February 18 2004 : 06:10:53 AM
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I plan on seeing it, because I have read the Book.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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richfed
Sachem
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Posted - February 18 2004 : 6:52:21 PM
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I'm with you on that, Sarge, but, Seamus has a point ... no matter how grand a spectacle this movie turns out to be - and I think it's going to be a great one - there's no way it can match The Book.
I'm going to see it anyway!! |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 18 2004 : 8:41:43 PM
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Funny, Seamus, my DH said exactly the same thing!
Well, I thought I was all gung-ho about going to see it, until I saw more clips the other night during Mel's interview. Now, I'm not too sure. No, I haven't changed my mind about the subject matter or the film itself in any way and on the one hand, I really, really want to see it. But on the other hand, I am just so afraid that the sheer power of it and the incredible realism of it will totally undo me. I'm afraid my brain and my emotions will simply not be able to handle it. Even though I know full well what Christ went through... I found myself literally shrinking away from the utter brutality of it. So I don't know what to do. I have to think on it.
Regarding Mel's interview, I was more impressed with the man than ever. You've simply got to hand it to him. He sat there, facing Diane and her questions, and answered them more than candidly. He answered from the depths of his very soul. He laid his Faith right out there for the whole world to see. He answered all of the allegations of anti-Semitism with good sense and truthfulness. And everything he said was spot on. And when Diane got too personal regarding Mel's father, he told her nicely but very firmly that they weren't going to go there.
He has grown, matured and changed over the years. He gives credit to his wife for putting up with him and for staying with him. He gives credit to his God for setting him on the straight and narrow.
I admire this man. |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
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Posted - April 17 2004 : 1:39:14 PM
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well, i say it yesterday. what can i say? gory. very gory. mel gibson seems to like that kind of thing.
i guess the movie's purpose was to make us sympathize with jesus, to come to the realization of what he went through to save us all.
unfortunatly.... i ended up feeling bad for two people: the roman governor and judas. they were set up, cheated, pushed into something they had no control over. yea, god gave us the right to choose, but this event was forordained, so there was nothing they could do to really derail the train of events leading up to christ's doom. and yet they have gone down in history as evil, terrible people.... how sad. i mean, at least christ knew he had it coming to him, and went through it all willing.
well, what i have to say is this. an impressive film, for impressionable people. you like it? go watch spartacus. you'll like that too. christ's example was not uncommon at the time. and if you like blood, gore, and mel gibson, go watch braveheart.
my rating? prolly 6 out of 10... |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
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Posted - April 17 2004 : 8:47:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithiliana
well, i say it yesterday. what can i say? gory. very gory. mel gibson seems to like that kind of thing.
i guess the movie's purpose was to make us sympathize with jesus, to come to the realization of what he went through to save us all.
unfortunatly.... i ended up feeling bad for two people: the roman governor and judas. they were set up, cheated, pushed into something they had no control over. yea, god gave us the right to choose, but this event was forordained, so there was nothing they could do to really derail the train of events leading up to christ's doom. and yet they have gone down in history as evil, terrible people.... how sad. i mean, at least christ knew he had it coming to him, and went through it all willing.
well, what i have to say is this. an impressive film, for impressionable people. you like it? go watch spartacus. you'll like that too. christ's example was not uncommon at the time. and if you like blood, gore, and mel gibson, go watch braveheart.
my rating? prolly 6 out of 10...
I'm confused, Ithi.
You say this was foreordained....by whom? And correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say, "yea God gave us the right to choose"? Do you believe that? |
Theresa |
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Ithiliana
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Posted - April 17 2004 : 10:55:34 PM
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i believe thats what the christian priests say, is it not? they say god gave us the freedom to choose (otherwise whats he gonna judge us on when we die?) but jesus knew what was to happen. he told peter that he will denounce him thrice, and lo! and behold... peter denounced him thrice. some say he had the gift of foresight, but what is foresight? if we have the freedom of choice, how can anyone know what we'll do? yes, one can predict... to a point. but nothing that accurate. and then he told the apostles at the last supper that one of them would betray him (i think). well, there... maybe he had the power to read minds... i dunno... but with peter how could he tell?
well anyway, my take on it was that christ came to earth to die for the sins of humanity. so it was going to happen. it was forordained, preplanned. the will of god, if you please. "If it is possible, let this chalice pass from me. but let thy will be done, not mine." or something like that... so any/all participaters were assigned roles already, which they carried out. choice didnt have much to do with that.
lol, theresa... i dont mean to turn this into "are you an atheist" part 2... i thought we had beaten that horse to death... unless, of course, you have anymore arguments which you wish to discuss, in which case im all ears... er... eyes :) |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
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Theresa
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Posted - April 18 2004 : 07:22:35 AM
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| No arguments necessary, Ithi. I think you've pretty much answered and confirmed what I read into your "movie review". You're right in that Jesus knew what was to happen. Who else but the Son of God would have? Do you believe predestination and free will are contridictory? Anyone? |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - April 18 2004 : 09:15:52 AM
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| Well, since you asked Theresa, I'll through out my opinion. I believe predestination and free will are not contradictory. I believe that everythiing is foreordained by God, including the crucifixtion of the Christ. I believe that Pontius Pilate and Judas Iscariot both chose to act as they did. They were not God's puppets in His play. I know this answer deserves more explanation but time limits this response. I will return with further explanation if it is desired. |
YMHS,
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Thomas Thacher
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richfed
Sachem
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Posted - April 18 2004 : 09:41:29 AM
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Very interesting take on the film, Ithi ... One I completely disagree with, however.
Gore? Why is that an issue with this film I wonder? With all the truly gory movies out there - many of no substance whatsoever - this one, from certain quarters, gets knocked for it.
I thought it a truly beautiful, moving, and passionate film! |
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Theresa
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Posted - April 18 2004 : 10:01:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger
Well, since you asked Theresa, I'll through out my opinion. I believe predestination and free will are not contradictory. I believe that everythiing is foreordained by God, including the crucifixtion of the Christ. I believe that Pontius Pilate and Judas Iscariot both chose to act as they did. They were not God's puppets in His play. I know this answer deserves more explanation but time limits this response. I will return with further explanation if it is desired.
This is where I'm not following...
You say you believe everything is foreordained by God and yet you say that Pilate and Judas chose to act. If their actions were foreordained then how could they choose? I'm not arguing the point, just trying to understand how they are not contradictory. |
Theresa |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - April 18 2004 : 12:14:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
This is where I'm not following...
You say you believe everything is foreordained by God and yet you say that Pilate and Judas chose to act. If their actions were foreordained then how could they choose? I'm not arguing the point, just trying to understand how they are not contradictory.
First, let me say that what I believe about predestination and free will is pretty much the Reformed belief on the subject. I grew up with many Arminian beliefs, but after studying theology, I find myself agreeing more and more with Reformed or Calvinist theology. I did not want to believe this at first, it was confusing. But the more I thought about it, the more it made the most logical sense to me. Much of what I write here is borrowed from RC Sproul's book Chosen by God
So, here is the Reformed position on predestination and free will. What is really at issue here is God's sovereignty versus man's free will. Jonathan Edwards explained in On the Freedom of the Will that human will is "the mind choosing." According to Edwards humans are not only free to choose what they desire, but they must choose what they desire to be able to choose at all. "The will always chooses acording to its strongest inclination at the moment." This means that every choice is free and every choice is determined. This sounds contradictory but what is meant by "determined" is not an external force coercing the will. "Determined" here refers to one's internal motivation or desire. Our choices are determined by our desires. They remain our choices because they are determined by our desires. This is called self-determination, whic is the essence of freedom.
The relationship between God and man is often explained with the analogy of a sovereign king ruling over a kingdom. Within that kingdom, men are free to choose as they will, but they are not autonomous. They are not a rule unto themselves. It is not free will that is canceled out by sovereignty, it is autonomy that can't coexist with sovereignty. If God is sovereign, man cannot be autonomous. If man is autonomous, God cannot be sovereign. These are contradictions. Man does not have to be autonomous to be free. We are free, but there are limits to our freedom. The ultimate limit to our freedom is the sovereignty of God. God is free. Man is free. God is more free than man. If man's freedom conflicts with God's freedom, God wins. God's freedom restricts man's freedom, our freedom does not restrict His. If God is truly sovereign, he foreordains everything. As the Westminster Confession of Faith says:
God, from all eternity, did by the most wise and holy counsel of his will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.
This idea that God foreordains everything is not unique to Calvinism or even Christianity. It is a basic tenet of theism. That God in some sense foreordains whatever comes to pass is a necessary result of his sovereign ty. God is absolutely sovereign over his creation. God can foreordain things in different ways, but everything that happens must at least happen by his permission. If God permits something, then he must decide to allow it. If He decides to allow it, then in a sense he is foreordaining it. Who, among Christians, would argue that God could not stop something from happening? If God so desires, he has the power to stop the whole world. To say that God foreordains all that comes to pass is simply to say that God is sovereign over his entire creation. If something could come to pass without God's permission, then God would not be sovereign. If there is any part of creation outside of God's sovereignty, then God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - April 18 2004 : 12:50:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger
God is absolutely sovereign over his creation. God can foreordain things in different ways, but everything that happens must at least happen by his permission.
This has always been a confusing issue for me, too.
If I may go back to Ithi's comment regarding Pontius Pilate and Judas being "pawns" in God's plan... here is my take and belief on that:
God's plan was that He would send His Son Jesus Christ (who is really a part of Himself, but that's a whole other topic!), to earth to be crucified on the cross, to die and to be resurrected... as an atonement, or the ultimate and final sacrifice, for the sins of every human being who professes a belief in Him.
But. Within that plan, the humans who were involved, other than Jesus, all had free will choices. Judas did not have to be involved. He made a free will choice to do what he did, to betray Christ. Pilate may have "had" to be involved because of his political position there... not because God "made" him be or used him as a player in a play.
So. Jesus would be crucified. There was no free will choice in this. If Judas had used his free will choice differently and decided not to take the money and betray Christ, God's plan would still have been fulfilled. It would have involved other people, somehow, someway. Because they would have used their own free will to bring about God's plan.
And, because God is Sovereign, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient, He knew exactly how His plan would work... He knew exactly who would be involved and what free will choices they would make. |
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Theresa
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 12:01:20 AM
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quote:
So. Jesus would be crucified. There was no free will choice in this. If Judas had used his free will choice differently and decided not to take the money and betray Christ, God's plan would still have been fulfilled. It would have involved other people, somehow, someway. Because they would have used their own free will to bring about God's plan.
And, because God is Sovereign, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient, He knew exactly how His plan would work... He knew exactly who would be involved and what free will choices they would make.
Bingo! That makes sense to me. Although God knew who would be involved and what free will choices they would make to carry out His plan, He did not foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. Is that right?
(Geez...I'm more convinced than ever that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box) |
Theresa |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - April 19 2004 : 08:03:47 AM
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quote:
He did not foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. Is that right?
I would say He did foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. But by "foreordain," I mean that God knew what choices they would make, and permitted them to make those choices. Foreordain does not mean that God forces people do things, or that they don't have a choice in the matter. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Mel Gibson's Passion -- Plan to see it?
