| Author |
 Topic  |
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 05 2007 : 10:53:59 AM
|
I think Reno made the right decision to form the skirmish line. He did not have fleeing Indians to contend with once the village was observed. - He was faced with overwhelming odds
- He could deploy the carbine rather than the revolver
- Defensive positions can withstand larger numbers of opposing forces then offensive attacks
- His orders were to bring them to battle not scatter a village
- A retreat is appropriate if the alternative is annihilation
I would suggest that Reno's whole battalion could have been annihilated by riding into the village in a shorter amount of time than the half hour he gave Custer to deliver the promised support.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
  |
|
|
chasber
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2007 : 01:37:31 AM
|
| Something that is interesting about Renos' advance, why would Reno use the wrong formation to attack the village? The line would be broken and seperated upon contact with the village. The seperated pieces would then be unable to communicate or support each other. Reno was West Point trained and had to know this stuff. Reno used this particular formation on purpose and for a reason. My personal favorite possibility for that reason is that Reno used the line formation because he was told to. This in turn opens up the possibility that there was more of a plan in play than has ever been admitted to by the principal players. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2007 : 02:32:22 AM
|
West Point also didn't think charging the utterly unknown was a great idea, nor assuming ability to support without basic recon, nor continually dividing your forces - insufficient in total anyway - in the face of the enemy, and then - if we believe the more absurd theories - in the actual lap of the enemy.
Reno was told to attack Indians on the run and then coming to meet him, not a static village. So, insofar as his formation goes, he may not have been correct, but he wasn't wrong.
The vast conspiracy to keep secret Custer's foolproof plan and the various treasons involved dissolve before the facts. If he knew what he was doing, he exhausted Benteen to no purpose whatsoever. He avoided the only good cavalry ground on the west bank and went ......well, who knows, but he ended up furthest from the camp himself, not in the center of the defensive arrangement but at the peak of rout, and there's no evidence he attacked the village whatsoever. Like Reno, a blunted advance and rush for safety. One pulled it off, one did not. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
chasber
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - October 07 2007 : 3:32:49 PM
|
| Utterly unknown is not quite accurate. The command had passed through and studied several previous camp sites. Custer also had some of the best scouts possible with him. Basic recon I believe would be studying the terrain from the crows nest, sendig Benteen to see if there Indians in the upper valley, and having Boyuer and the Crows well out in front. Far enough so that they oberserved the Lone Teepee band for awhile before it packed up and scooted out. Dividing the force to attack a village from multiple directions was a distictly unusual thing to do if you don't count Palo Duro, Wa****a, Powder River, Bighole... I do not fault Reno for forming his skirmish line when he did, I do not even fault him too much for going into the timber to hide while the skirmish line was engaged. I do fault him greatly though for taking a third of the line with him when he went. |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 07 2007 : 8:01:27 PM
|
I agree with Dc, there was no attack made by Custer on the lower part of
the village, other then a few shots exchanged. Other then Custer giving
Reno his order to attack the village and he would be supported by the
regiment I do not any other orders were given to Reno. However I will say
say that Custer command had been seen on the buffs and Reno was aware of
this. In Reno's report of July 5, 1876, he said, Custer intend to support
me by moving further down the stream and attacking the village in the flank.
He could assumed this, because he knew Custer's outfit was up on the buff's.
However as Custer never did attack, the pressure was never was taken off
of Reno's front, As to Movingrobewoman"s question, I have always said that
if Custer had brought Benteen in to support Reno,s attack, the Indians may
have found themselves in a bad sitution, they would have had to contend with
the new threat, plus face the threat of Custer and his outfit moving down
River. When it comes to the LBH it's like entering quicksand. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
chasber
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - October 08 2007 : 01:55:37 AM
|
| In Reno's own words his orders were to charge the village. Custer was moving to support that charge not a skirmish line a mile away from the village. According to Gray's timelines it was 17 minutes from when Reno left the Timber till he reached the top of Reno hill. As Reno had only sustained 3 casualties up to the point he stopped defending the timber position, was his charge to the rear justifiable at that time? Can we condemn Custer for not supporting Reno when Reno didn't hold a position long enough to receive that support. Most of the descriptions of the firing heard downstream identify it as starting about the time Reno reached the top. I would suggest that you study the descriptions of that firing and where it came from, paying particular attention to the descriptions of those who were left in the timber. I feel that it is highly probable that Custer did attack. We know Reno stopped a mile short of the village. We know bullets being fired from the skirmish line were not reaching the Indians and the village was a good half mile beyond them. So how do we explain the Indians who talked about bullets rattling through the teepee tops? |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 08 2007 : 09:43:06 AM
|
Reno was told to stop the running Indians and bring them to battle. When writing after the fact word selection becomes problematic. If Custer truly knew there was a village that could be struck then he made a serious error in splitting up his forces. Why not take the whole regiment on the same path that Reno traveled. There would be no way for the village to pack up and leave before he got there and it was the best terrain for cavalry to operate. Recon from 15 miles leaves a lot to be desired in the 1870's. Custer found that out.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 08 2007 : 09:46:35 AM
|
When faced with overwhelming numbers against you one half hour is a long time. The element of surprise is gone and everyone in the village is alerted and now preparing for battle. Custer needed to hit the same Indians that Reno did almost simultaneously or go to plan B. I believe he went to plan B.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
chasber
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - October 08 2007 : 2:11:57 PM
|
How do you catch an enemy that can move farther and faster than you. If Custer had advanced down the valley with the entire regiment the warriors would have attacked him to buy the time needed for the village to get away. You would wind up with a nasty fight and then a summer spent chasing Indians all over the country. Which is actually what happened anyway. The point I am trying to make is that dividing the regiment to attack from different directions was Army sop at the time. Custer was going by the book it just didn't work. This brings us to reasons why it didn't work.
Where there overwhelming numbers? The Indians never attemted to close with Reno as long as a defensive fire was maintained. There are multiple references as to how good Reno's position in the timber was. There are comparable actions against overwhelming numbers of these same Indians. The Indians had learned a very expensive lesson, you don't charge troops who have cover. There are detailed descriptions of the troopers bullets not reaching the Indians they were fired at. That is how far away they were keeping themselves. The Indians themselves said they didn't understand why Reno left as they could not have got to him in the timber. Under these conditions a hakf hour would not make much of a difference and Reno still could have lost 30 men in his panic charge to safety.
|
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2007 : 02:05:42 AM
|
There is also references that if they stayed longer that would have been wiped out. It was not very often that 3 companies are in such a position next to such a large village. Reno loss less than Custer in his retreat to higher ground.
AZ Ranger
|
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2007 : 11:38:31 PM
|
It is a fact that the Indians did keep themselves out of range of Reno's
men. I have read accounts of Indians who had captured weapons of soldiers
and knew what they could do. When Reno dismounted, his men were firing at
Indians 800 to 900 yards away. Some of them just shot wildly, using up
there ammo. When the Indians closed on Reno's left flank he moved out to
the timber. He could only hold for so long as his men were running out of
ammo. If Reno had stayed in the woods they would have kept him bottled up
until the last man was dead or dying. As for the firing into the tipis of
the Indians. When Reno lead Co "G" into a clearing in the woods from which
tipis could been seen. And Gall had said that some of his family were kill
ed in the camp. And these camps were located along the river and near the
woods. So I do not find this impossible. When it comes to the LBH it is like
entering quicksand. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2007 : 4:17:52 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Reno was ordered to chase fleeing Indians not to attack a village of thousands.
AZ Ranger
"I estimated it was 2:15 when Reno received the charge order."
Lt. Wallace
Custer than said, "I am through with the scouts; you have brought me to the Sioux. I will throw Reno's battalion (to attack from) South, in case the Sioux should go south."
Testimony from White Man Runs.
Custer hallooed over to Reno, "You will take your battalion and try and bring them to battle and I will support you."
Fred Girard testimony
Lt. Cook came to me and said, "General Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village afterward and you will be supported by the whole outfit."
Major Reno testimony
The above information tends to support the theory that Custer, indeed, ordered Reno to attack the village. While their is evidence that portions of the village, initially, suffered alarm and chaos at Reno's approach, they (in the main) were not attempting to flee.
Neither Reno nor Custer could have known the number of inhabitants in the village; whether hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands. It simply did not matter. Convinced by his false perception of the martial superiority of his troopers compared against the fighting abilities of the "heathen" aboriginals, he could not loose! Or so he believed. Custer had previously stated that with the 7Th. Calvary alone, he could run through the entire Sioux Nation.
Only in hindsight, after the fatal consequences of the battle have become know, do we surmise that surely he could not have meant to do what he did. My opinion is that his ambition, committment to following orders(the rightness or wrongness of this obediance is another issue) and personal social values forced him to attack the village no matter the circumstances. |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2008 : 10:04:31 AM
|
The village is running is the Intel. In this case the village means people not the actual infrastructure of village. The total observations is less than 100 Indians observed. If they had seen the larger stationary village they would not have said there is running Indians ahead and fewer than 100 don't you think?
I would expect the the intel to be that there is 50 Indians ahead running to warn a "Big Village". It not hindsight to look at the information they had at the time.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 16 2008 : 8:59:30 PM
|
[quote]Originally posted by AZ Ranger
The village is running is the Intel. In this case the village means people not the actual infrastructure of village. The total observations is less than 100 Indians observed. If they had seen the larger stationary village they would not have said there is running Indians ahead and fewer than 100 don't you think?
Joe Wiggs
I have been studying this battle for over twenty years. I am by no means an expert but, I have accrued some information that I believe is credible. In every book, resource, footnote, and magazine that covers this battle, that I have read, village meant the "people" who occupied it. You are the first to refer to the recalcitrant Indians as an "infrastructure." This would suggest that Custer was sent to the Little Big Horn to capture tipi's and travois as no other "intra-structure" existed.
AZ
I would expect the the intel to be that there is 50 Indians ahead running to warn a "Big Village". It not hindsight to look at the information they had at the time.
Joe Wiggs
I agree in part. The fifty or so Indians were attempting ( I believe) to warn the village. You are also correct when you refer to our looking back as hindsight,my question would be what other "sight" is available to us?
|
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 17 2008 : 07:17:26 AM
|
Joe did the village attack Crook? Is a raiding party a village? My point was simply that a running village may include the abandoning of the tipis or the packing up and taking them along. It would also include noncoms.
One would expect in my opinion to find abandoned tipis or evidence of where they were if the village is running. Whereas "Big Village" would indicate to me lots of stationary tipis which may or maybe not have been occupied at the time.
AZ Ranger
|
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2008 : 8:46:09 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by chasber
Utterly unknown is not quite accurate. The command had passed through and studied several previous camp sites. Custer also had some of the best scouts possible with him. Basic recon I believe would be studying the terrain from the crows nest, sendig Benteen to see if there Indians in the upper valley, and having Boyuer and the Crows well out in front. Far enough so that they oberserved the Lone Teepee band for awhile before it packed up and scooted out. Dividing the force to attack a village from multiple directions was a distictly unusual thing to do if you don't count Palo Duro, Wa****a, Powder River, Bighole... I do not fault Reno for forming his skirmish line when he did, I do not even fault him too much for going into the timber to hide while the skirmish line was engaged. I do fault him greatly though for taking a third of the line with him when he went.
A very good post. I agree entirely with you. When Reno received his orders "to lead out" it was due to a group of warriors observed rushing frantically from an abandoned Indian camp in the general direction that Custer feared the target village was located.
Although Custer discerned the approximate location of the village from his vantage point at the Crow's Nest,the the exact location was unknown until he viewed it himself from Reno's Hill. A subsequent view from Weir's Point allowed him to realize the actual size of the village.
As you say, Reno should not be condemned for the skirmish line. It is the manner in which he withdrew and fled that is questionable. |
|
|
|
joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 19 2008 : 6:30:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
The vast conspiracy to keep secret Custer's foolproof plan and the various treasons involved dissolve before the facts. If he knew what he was doing, he exhausted Benteen to no purpose whatsoever. He avoided the only good cavalry ground on the west bank and went ......well, who knows, but he ended up furthest from the camp himself, not in the center of the defensive arrangement but at the peak of rout, and there's no evidence he attacked the village whatsoever. Like Reno, a blunted advance and rush for safety. One pulled it off, one did not.
Joe Wiggs
To my knowledge you are the first human being who has publicly stated that Custer had a "fool proof" plan. The problem with your premise is two fold:
He got killed;
How could the "vast Conspiracy"conceal what never existed?(Fool Proof plan.)
History would forever indebted to you couls substaniate your theory. C. Pennington just finished a book wherein he includes your theory. Shouldn't you be suing him for plagiarism?
Another thing, was it Benteen who got exhausted or his horse?
Reno succeeded only because the military "feint" at the ford. to bad Custer did not have a "Custer" to pull his butt out of the fire too.
Contrary to your assertive and, redundant assertion that there exist no evidence that he attacked the village, once again, you are wrong.
|
Edited by - joe wiggs on September 19 2008 6:32:32 PM |
|
|
|
joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 19 2008 : 6:52:09 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by chasber
How do you catch an enemy that can move farther and faster than you. If Custer had advanced down the valley with the entire regiment the warriors would have attacked him to buy the time needed for the village to get away. You would wind up with a nasty fight and then a summer spent chasing Indians all over the country. Which is actually what happened anyway. The point I am trying to make is that dividing the regiment to attack from different directions was Army sop at the time. Custer was going by the book it just didn't work. This brings us to reasons why it didn't work.
Where there overwhelming numbers? The Indians never attempted to close with Reno as long as a defensive fire was maintained. There are multiple references as to how good Reno's position in the timber was. There are comparable actions against overwhelming numbers of these same Indians. The Indians had learned a very expensive lesson, you don't charge troops who have cover. There are detailed descriptions of the troopers bullets not reaching the Indians they were fired at. That is how far away they were keeping themselves. The Indians themselves said they didn't understand why Reno left as they could not have got to him in the timber. Under these conditions a half hour would not make much of a difference and Reno still could have lost 30 men in his panic charge to safety.
Joe Wiggs
You have hit the proverbial "nail" right smack on the head. Army S.O.P. in that era was what it was. Custer did what he had to do. Had he not done so and, survived, he would have been court-martial ed had he not attacked that village. No excuses would have been accepted.
Contemporaneous judgment of his actions is futile because military tactics of today are much different. today he would have been court-martial ed for such tactics. During the Civil War, it was common practice to march thousands of men, in the open field, against each other and suffer exorbitant losses. We no longer do that.
When we snatch a historical, military figure from his own time period and judge him by our current standards the verdict rarely is anything but an indictment.
Again, a great post Chasber. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 19 2008 : 10:35:18 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by chasber
How do you catch an enemy that can move farther and faster than you. If Custer had advanced down the valley with the entire regiment the warriors would have attacked him to buy the time needed for the village to get away. You would wind up with a nasty fight and then a summer spent chasing Indians all over the country. Which is actually what happened anyway. The point I am trying to make is that dividing the regiment to attack from different directions was Army sop at the time. Custer was going by the book it just didn't work. This brings us to reasons why it didn't work.
Where there overwhelming numbers? The Indians never attempted to close with Reno as long as a defensive fire was maintained. There are multiple references as to how good Reno's position in the timber was. There are comparable actions against overwhelming numbers of these same Indians. The Indians had learned a very expensive lesson, you don't charge troops who have cover. There are detailed descriptions of the troopers bullets not reaching the Indians they were fired at. That is how far away they were keeping themselves. The Indians themselves said they didn't understand why Reno left as they could not have got to him in the timber. Under these conditions a hakf hour would not make much of a difference and Reno still could have lost 30 men in his panic charge to safety.
So are you saying that the whole regiment could not charge the Indians blocking and buying time. Why would anyone think 3 companies would be better than 12 companies.
The Indians were not going to run and did not. It is daytime and the get ready to fight time for the Indians is shorter. Besides this village was to large to run away completely and there would have been sufficient casualties to claim victory and the tipis and supplies would be destroyed. Would they run to Terry?
Why couldn't they flank the buying time Indians once they were fixed on the valley floor by the 3 companies. If 3 companies was expected to hold the Indians than that would leave 7-9 to ride around to the flanks and crush them quickly.
It didn't work because they failed to engage 12 companies at the same time. I don't believe there was ever more than 3 companies engaged at any one time.
The Indians were circling Reno to make sure he could not get away. Troopers and horses were beginning to be hit from Indians infiltrating the timber. French thought it was Custer coming into to the timber because there was so much fire identified from behind them. Crazy Horse was coming with more warriors. There was not enough troopers to cover the perimeter of the timber 360 degrees. The horses are in an opening away from the line but not away from the infiltrating Indians. It could be defended with more troops but not with what they had. At smaller numbers they did not care. I believe that is why the civilians thought the timber a good place.
Part of being a good officer I would think is anticipating what will happen next and react before it happens. Crazy Horse appears just as Reno leaves the timber if he waited any longer they would be trapped without support or supplies.
The Custer battlefield is evidence of overwhelming numbers I would think. At least sufficient numbers to destroy them before running out of ammunition.
|
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 06:59:40 AM
|
| "We will damn Major Reno with faint praise" |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 09:49:01 AM
|
| There is no praise for any command level officers that day. A few individual acts were brave. No one has ever posted that Reno was a hero or much more than barely adequate. There are praises from those that served with him in the valley. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 09:51:45 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brent
"We will damn Major Reno with faint praise"
Which he so richly deserved. |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 11:56:57 AM
|
| It must be a conspiracy. My post came up so it appears that I was agreeing with AZ that Reno deserved praise. I was actually responding to Brent's damning him with faint praise. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 1:38:31 PM
|
No, it does not so appear. You quoted the line to which you responded. Further, AZ doesn't say Reno deserves praise, anyway. He just doesn't deserve condemnation given the results and painful fact that nobody shows how it could have been done with better results.
Before damning an officer, there should be more than wishful thinking to prove he was wrong. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 2:05:06 PM
|
| Lighten up DC, I was joking. However, I did misrepresent what AZ said. So my apoligies to him. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Custer's Command Decisions
