| Author |
 Topic  |
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 19 2005 : 10:22:34 PM
|
[quote]Originally posted by Warlord
Wow! Great post Joe! That is the kind of real research that is needed for intelligent discussion on this board rather than the minute search on google, post a site and pretend to be a researcher that we have seen so much of here!
That is a terrific point made about Reno stopping and forming a skirmish line then did he start to suffer casualties! Considering that at length that probably could be the great mistake made! If he had continued the charge would his force have been obliterated? If it would have been, would a veering off charge to the river have been much better than attempting to stand and fight at numerous points been the main cause of casualties?
Thanks Paul, your comments are truly appreciated. There is a general consensus that a sustained charge by Reno would have ended in the demise of he and his command. Such a consensus,made in retrospect,is completely rational when one considers the fatal outcome of the battle. However, a sustained charge may have resulted in complete panic and a general rout of the warriors. We will never know. What we do know is that an empowered,extremely aggressive group of warriors hotly chasing soldiers from Weir's Point were suddenly, and unexpectedly, thwarted by Lt. Godfrey and his troop. Godfrey forced his men to maintain position and execute organized ground fire which enabled the rest of the command to return to Reno's bluff unscathed.
I have been fortunate enough to visit the field on two occasions. I am in complete accord with you. Other than the wooded area, the bluffs seem to be the only defensive arena open to Reno. Again, thank you for kind remarks. It is only human to appreciate having one's efforts recognize on a clinical level rather than being reduced to a personal one. |
  |
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2005 : 01:37:17 AM
|
Warlord, Joe, and others--
I am currently watching my copy of "Son of the Morning Star," so maybe I am being overly emotional. But Warlord, I think you are on to something. Though none of us agree on the minutae of LBH, it is quite refreshing to disagree on adult terms! Personally, I believe this board should retain its reputation for edginess, lets keep it to the study of Custer and them battles.
I'm still mighty happy with my DR scenario ... perhaps we can stage a full-throttle chat on the 25th, s'il etait possible ...?
Hoka hey ... and ya'ta'he'ey! |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2005 : 10:32:59 PM
|
| Although I have been occupied with personal matters recently and, my ability to respond to posts have been limited,I try to peruse the forum as often as possible. I have never been so happy to be a part of this organization as I an now. Imagine, to disagree with one another and not be subjected to unsubstantiated, crass, and immoral jabs. I shall ascend the highest mountain and yell, "Hoka hey...ya'ta'he'ey!" until my lungs burst with joy. |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2005 : 10:02:19 AM
|
| I would not count my chickens just yet Joe unless you saw someone put a stake through his heart. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 01 2005 : 9:23:04 PM
|
Ah my friend, well put. "Who knows the evil that lurks in the minds of men." However, truly this must be so, the tides of change are in the winds and the harbinger of discord has had his gruesome talons dulled. Still he exist to spew forth havoc among the unwary. |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 11:11:02 AM
|
| Actually, weren't the Indians starting to run, scatter, act a bit disorganized, when Reno ALONE attacked? That attack failed due to it's lackluster nature, lack of strength (I agree Benteen would have been much better used there than where he was sent)and most of all, because it was NOT supported in any timely manner by Custer--who had promised support. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 12:39:40 PM
|
You are absolutely correct Brent, although some of the Indians were aware that soldiers were in the general vicinity, Reno's drive still managed to startle most of them. It's possible that the Indians were lulled into a state of comfort due to their, perceived, trouncing of Crook earlier.
Not understanding the determination of the U.S. Army to corral them, they were lackadaisical in their efforts to move on. Ironically, on the day of Custer's attack the village was in the process of moving camp.
It is also true that Custer did not support Reno in the fashion that Reno anticipated. However, both Reno and Custer went to the same Academy where military tactics were taught to include support from a flanking position. It is to easy to judge Reno in hindsight and, I as well as others, often do. let me just say this, when Reno halted his troops, the Indians ceased fleeing and counter charged. I am not saying that every warrior in the village fled like frightened children at Reno's approach. Some, certainly, did not. That there was a short period of confusion, apprehension, and panic on behalf of the village is undeniable.
by the way, thanks for posting. You've been missed. |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2007 : 08:28:11 AM
|
Thanks!! I actually had a lot of other things going on--but I did read 4 or 5 more Custer/LBH books in the meantime..
Anyway--suprise is a very, very valuable tool in combat. To have it (even if you don't really know you have it, as in Custer's case) and then squader it, is not good. From all (or, almost all!) I've read, the Indians were initially suprised at LBH. There was no organized resistance at first-the warriors were sleeping, fishing, etc. A determined, well supported charge may have done wonders. That Reno charge was too weak numbers wise, was not exactly vigorous to begin with, and worse, it was not supported IN A TIMELY MANNER by Custer. Remember we're dealing with Marcus Reno--a perfectly ordinary US cavalry commander, and by no means a Murat or N.B. Forrest. I'm sure he had those words 'You'll be supported by the whole outfit" ringing in his ears, but as the warriors recovered from their brief initial suprise and began to gather and react, he noticed that he had no support. Weakly made and with not enough troops, the charge then faltered.
I'm not sure what the addition of Benteen's force would have done in light of Custer's non-support.. However--a charge by the entire 7th led by Custer himself may have been interesting.
But then--Custer was expecting a running village, not a fighting one, so who knows??
And I am firmly convinced that sending Benteen off on that scout (or was it a foray-expedition-blocking operation-information gathering-valley hunting -fient-third prong assault??)was a major mistake. If all you want is information and quickly--send scouts. If you really expect a unit of Benteens size to find something to do--then don't expect him back too soon--or at all. Suppose he HAD found Indians?? What then?? The main battle was already getting underway!! Benteen may have needed help himself!!
"Hadn't we better keep the regiment together, General? If this is as big a camp as they say, we'll need every man we have".
Now who said that---? |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2007 : 7:36:26 PM
|
Brent,
I don't know if this is an insult or a compliment but, you think as I do. What a wonderful summation based upon probability while excluding the improbable. if I didn't know better, I would think you were actually there. I know who said those words, "Hadn't we better keep the regiment together, General?" It was you!!! |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2007 : 06:45:38 AM
|
There are a # of folks who think "our" way--and a lot who'll think what I said was completely off base.. and make a good case for it. But that's the LBH for you--we're all reduced to being arm chair quarterbacks.
And when given a chance to go back to some point in history and actually "see" what happened (withoutgetting hurt, of course!!) LBH would be very high on my list.
Pincer type movements are great tactics--at the high unit level and at the small unit level. But they demand at least SOME coordination, and that's what's missing at LBH. OF course, Custer is in a hurry, things are happening quickly, and time dosen't permit the careful planning needed. So it's "Reno, you charge here, Benteen, you go there, and I'll support you all by going up here".
It just didn't work out--. |
Edited by - Brent on August 01 2007 06:46:50 AM |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 02 2007 : 9:44:26 PM
|
| Brent, I don't think you are completly off base, but I think that Custer had good reasons for not keeping the regiment together. Custer expected the non combatants to flee while the warriors fought a delaying action then follow. If the entire force attacked from the south, the village would flee north,with a good chance of escaping, since Gibbon and Terry could not be expected to be in position on the 25th.Custer might then expect a lot of blame for attacking a day early. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2007 : 4:33:01 PM
|
Prolar, a good thought and, undoubtedly, Custer would have been blamed and criticized had the Indians escaped to the north. However, it is possible that a mounted calvary charge would have over taken an exodus of panic, women, children, and old men. Mounted warrior yes, those on foot and, in frail condition, no.
Also, as I posted on another resent thread, one has to wonder if Custer would have divided his forces had he know of the Gen. Crook/Sioux confrontation? That battle, I think, illustrated the warrior's resolve to protect their families.
Who knows, he may have called the battle off had he known. Nah, knowing his character, that's unlikely. |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2007 : 6:24:02 PM
|
| Hi Joseph,I just can't see Reno and his 130 or so troopers chasing a village with probably ten times that number of willing fighters, if not warriors. When Reno crossed the river ,he reported back to Custer that the Indians were gathering in his front. Girard reported to Cooke to tell Custer that the village was not running. I agree that there was some panic in the village, and that many warriors were not mounted at first. However they were all armed, and anyone able to use a weapon would have become a defender, if Reno had continued into the village. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2007 : 9:09:30 PM
|
Hi friend, Point well taken! The thought of 130 troopers charging through the village does make for a stretch of credibility. perhaps, Custer's entire command would have found the task impossible. Girard's report to Custer was factual. Custer may have perceived the warrior movement as their traditional "rear-guard" action that enables the women and children to flee toward the rear and safety. when we remember that the Native American had no standing army to fight its battles then we better understand the critical need for them to protect their non-combatants, even in the midst of battle, a tremendous burden not shared by the troopers.
It is, I think, this understandable "fear" on behalf of the warriors that would have fed the already instilled panic in the village to greater heights than what may normally have occurred. The Indian was an individualistic fighter who often chose to succor the safety of his family rather than the safety of the village as a whole.
In all probability a little of everything occurred when reno bore down upon the village. +Some warriors rushed to the front, some protected their families, some were confused, and some sought to escape. I agree with you that a charge through the village may not have been practical. However, I also believe that Reno's halt was premature and, as a result, allowed the disorganized warriors to solidify and counter charge.
I've used this quote before so forgive me, "we do not run because we panic, we panic because we run." the initial chaos created by the trooper charge was quickly diluted by an abrupt and unexpected halt.
I'm glad to hear from you again your thread have been missed. |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 12:07:45 AM
|
| Joseph, thank you. I don't want to be perceived as an apoligist for Reno, I still see his "charge" from the timber as a great mistake. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 1:54:54 PM
|
So do I! I realize that hindsight is twenty-twenty and to judge Reno's "charge" is considered by some to be unethical. There are even a few he will damn you to all hell for even suggesting that Reno's action was anything but absolutely necessary. However, of all the probables concerning this battle there is one "fact" we can be sure of. If Reno had stayed in the timber, the entire Indian force would not have been available to exterminate Custer's command.
The Warriors emphatically would not have left Reno's men that close to the village. Thus, a divided warrior force would not have been as effective as an undivided one. As a result, the battle would have turned out differently in one fashion or another.
I am not even suggesting that Reno had to stay in that position indefinitely, just fifteen to 1/2 hour longer would have made a tremendous difference. |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 3:13:33 PM
|
And had only Custer been quicker in supporting him, he may have decided to stick it out there for a bit longer. But I think it was a "mind" thing with Reno--he thought he was whipped and in trouble and just wanted to get out.
But I completely agree that from what I read, he COULD have stayed longer and it would have been interesting to see what would have happened... |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 8:02:26 PM
|
The "mind" thing with Reno struck home while I was going over his official report of July 5, 1876.
"I deployed, and, with the Ree scouts on my left, charged down the valley, driving the Indians with great ease for about two and a half miles. I, however, soon saw that I was being drawn into some trap, as they would certainly fight harder."
There is no way Reno could have possibly discerned the military objectives of the warriors based upon the "ease" in which he advance. What he experienced was a re-experience of Moseby's Rangers actions against him during the Civil War. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 05 2007 8:06:31 PM |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 7:01:01 PM
|
Reno was ordered to chase fleeing Indians not to attack a village of thousands. He was to bring them to battle. The problem was there was to many that game to that battle for the divided u regiment to handle. The support needed to applied to the Indians brought to battle and within one half hour or it would be of no value. Reno gave Custer that one half hour and the support did not arrive.
I chose one half hour because anything longer allowed to many Indians to get ready and come from all over the village. Surprise would be a key element of this type of an attack. I don't blame Custer because it was the terrain and the large number of Indians that defeated this attack. Some days you lose and on this day the Indians won. Its that simple.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 02 2007 : 1:41:05 PM
|
I think the one mistake that Reno made was dismounting and forming a skirmish.
Onec he dismounted he was at the mercy of the Indians. And I do believe when
Reno realized Custer was supporting him, panic set in, as he knew he had alot
of Indians in his front. And as some have already said, Custer was most likely
going to support Reno by hitting the village in the flank. However I think that
Custer was slow in doing so.Custer had scouts with him that could have kept him
up to date on Reno's charge and what was happening on his front. I believe he
should have moved quicker then he did. At 3:15 he was at Weir's point, at 3:20
Reno was retreating to the timber. As we all know that that the mission he sent
Capt Benteen on was a fruitless wasted scout. In my own small opinion Benteen
could have been Custer's ace in the hole, as I do not believe the Indians knew
that Benteen was back on the trail. If Custer had brought Benteen up to support
Reno, he would have cause the Indians problems. One they would have had to worry
about, the new force on Reno's front, plus split there force to handle Custer on
his front. And we know that Sgt kanipe had seen Benteen. And I do think that if
Custer had sent an order to Benteen, move as quickly as possible to support Reno
I believe that Benteen would have moved as quickly as possible to Reno's support.
But as I always say, when it comes to the LBH its like entering quicksand
|
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
scalped
Recruit
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 04 2007 : 12:38:21 AM
|
Sgtmajor:- "I think the one mistake Reno made was to dismount"
I have read a few of the posts regarding Reno's conduct when attacking the village. The first point I would make is why did Reno stop and form a skirmish? Answer because he saw what was in front of him A MASSIVE VILLAGE FILLED WITH WARRIORS, to proceed was suicide. Reno followed procedure (Just as Custer did when faced with the same situation, formed or attempted to form skirmish lines) Reno's actions cannot be questioned here, he had no choice. As for his retreat , well it may seem like a panicked affair but what retreat isnt, just take a look at custer hill, well organised, wasnt it. The way I see it, is that Reno takes a lot of flak for basically doing exactly as Custer did on after part of the battle field.
Also polar and joesph wiggs "Reno's flight from the Timber was a mistake........ If Renos men had tied up the Indians , they would not have been available to wipe out Custer command" Come on lads, did Reno know where his promised support was???? Were the birds to talk to him and let him know. He had a responsibility to his command. If he stayed his troop would have been wiped out. He saved a great deal of men through his actions. Custer on the other hand , did not |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 04 2007 : 7:00:16 PM
|
Well from what I understand is that Custer had formed a skirmish line and
from Indians accounts, they had put up a very hard fight. Keep one thing
in mind, which I think that most folks seem to forget. Reno went into the
timber at 3:20, at that time he was in a good defenseable position. The
Indians in his front and on his left flank, but he had the river to his
back. Even most Indian accounts said if he had stayed there it would have
been hard to get at them. Custer had fired his first shot in Medicine Tail
Coulee at 3:45, just 10 minutes later Reno had started his retreat from
the timber, if he had stayed there just 10 or 15 minutes longer, it may
have made a difference. And also keep this in mind no matter what anybody
can say about Custer, he stood his ground, he did not retreat, and according
to Indian accounts, he caused them many problems, and took many Indians in
the fight. And he was flank by many more Indians then Reno had on his front
as most of them had left to face the new threat from Custer. A commander
has a responsibility to his command, and his troop commanders and the men
who serve under him. I don't think that Reno displayed his commandership
when he took off from the timber without informing his troop commanders
as to what he was going to do, or what he was up to. To me he paniced and
that is all there is to it. He left men to the fate of the indians, never
concerned himself about the wounded, his main purpose was to get out of
there and that was it. Every man for himself. Yes, Custer made his mistakes
but he died fighting to his last breath, he made his last stand, he did
not rtreat in the face of his enemy. As always talking about the LBH is
like getting into quicksand. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
scalped
Recruit
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 04 2007 : 9:22:43 PM
|
| Sgt Major:- "Custer did not retreat" From what the battle field tells us he did, he treated until he could go no further. His troop panicked to such an extent that Benteen said you may as well have thrown a hand full of corn , to resemble the troop positions, it was that dis-organised. To say Custers troop fought to their last breath, maybe but as the Indian accounts say, the fight was over in as much time as takes a hungry man to eat his dinner. The point is that if Renos command had been wiped out, would we be talking about his retreat No. Just as we dont talk about Custers retreat to high ground and the panicking troopers in his wake. Reno saved a large portion of his troop, Custer failed miserably. Now some of that is due to the fact that the Indians didnt really bother with Reno's command after the Custer fight but this is in part due to Benteen and Reno setting up a defensive position. |
|
|
|
chasber
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - October 05 2007 : 12:05:57 AM
|
| scalped, it has been a very long time since I have posted anything anywhere. Your last two posts have drawn me back in. It is good to see someone standing up for Reno. A couple of points to make about your posts though. The village could not be seen from where Reno stopped and formed his skirmish line. One of the scouts with Reno estimated the number of Indians in front of Reno at 50 to 75 "a whole lot of dust but very few Indians". Keep up the good work of standing up for the Reno, the poor guy needs all the help he can get. |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 05 2007 : 05:37:30 AM
|
| Reno was probably a victim of his own caution as much as anything else. Getting cut-off or "ambushed" by the Indians was always a fear of the Cavalry, and I think Reno was fearful that he was being drawn in too deep. Add to that no sign of the promised support, and he decides to retreat to the bluffs. Which retreat turned into a rout, and the trauma of it probably made him and his entire command pretty much unfit for further offensive operations that day. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Custer's Command Decisions
