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Originally posted by Benteen

And only someone like you could say that Ranger. I suppose yours could be classified as 'community building' as well, huh Ranger? Who is ignorant now?

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Originally posted by Benteen

Joe, It may best be summed up in the words of Benjamin Franklin:

"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

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Originally posted by Benteen

Joe,

Chasber made some interesting observations that I think are interesting, and would like to re-address:

Something that is interesting about Renos' advance, why would Reno use the wrong formation to attack the village? The line would be broken and separated upon contact with the village. The separated pieces would then be unable to communicate or support each other. Reno was West Point trained and had to know this stuff. Reno used this particular formation on purpose and for a reason. My personal favorite possibility for that reason is that Reno used the line formation because he was told to. This in turn opens up the possibility that there was more of a plan in play than has ever been admitted to by the principal players.

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Have mercy, methinks you are going to bust the whole thing wide open. Never thought of this before. I see where your going with this. JW

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Utterly unknown is not quite accurate. The command had passed through and studied several previous camp sites. Custer also had some of the best scouts possible with him. Basic recon I believe would be studying the terrain from the crows nest, sending Benteen to see if there Indians in the upper valley, and having Boyuer and the Crows well out in front. Far enough so that they observed the Lone Tepee band for awhile before it packed up and scooted out. Dividing the force to attack a village from multiple directions was a distinctly unusual thing to do if you don't count Palo Duro, Wa****a, Powder River, Bighole... I do not fault Reno for forming his skirmish line when he did, I do not even fault him too much for going into the timber to hide while the skirmish line was engaged. I do fault him greatly though for taking a third of the line with him when he went.

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Stand by Radio, we have a confirmation here...JW

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In Reno's own words his orders were to charge the village. Custer was moving to support that charge not a skirmish line a mile away from the village. According to Gray's timelines it was 17 minutes from when Reno left the Timber till he reached the top of Reno hill. As Reno had only sustained 3 casualties up to the point he stopped defending the timber position, was his charge to the rear justifiable at that time? Can we condemn Custer for not supporting Reno when Reno didn't hold a position long enough to receive that support. Most of the descriptions of the firing heard downstream identify it as starting about the time Reno reached the top. I would suggest that you study the descriptions of that firing and where it came from, paying particular attention to the descriptions of those who were left in the timber. I feel that it is highly probable that Custer did attack. We know Reno stopped a mile short of the village. We know bullets being fired from the skirmish line were not reaching the Indians and the village was a good half mile beyond them. So how do we explain the Indians who talked about bullets rattling through the tepee tops?

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I'm with you 100% JW

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How do you catch an enemy that can move farther and faster than you. If Custer had advanced down the valley with the entire regiment the warriors would have attacked him to buy the time needed for the village to get away. You would wind up with a nasty fight and then a summer spent chasing Indians all over the country. Which is actually what happened anyway. The point I am trying to make is that dividing the regiment to attack from different directions was Army sop at the time. Custer was going by the book it just didn't work. This brings us to reasons why it didn't work.

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Why didn't I think of this??? JW

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Were there overwhelming numbers? The Indians never attempted to close with Reno as long as a defensive fire was maintained. There are multiple references as to how good Reno's position in the timber was. There are comparable actions against overwhelming numbers of these same Indians. The Indians had learned a very expensive lesson, you don't charge troops who have cover. There are detailed descriptions of the troopers bullets not reaching the Indians they were fired at. That is how far away they were keeping themselves. The Indians themselves said they didn't understand why Reno left as they could not have got to him in the timber. Under these conditions a half hour would not make much of a difference and Reno still could have lost 30 men in his panic charge to safety.

[quote]I believe this line of thought deserves a thread of its' own. Fantastic!!! JW[/quote

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Originally posted by joe wiggs

What a detailed and informative expose on "skirmish" tactics. Thank you for your efforts and I agree with you regarding Reno's decision. However, after making his decision, Reno deserted the line, ceased to ensure its integrity, and led his men (not all of them mind you) in a jumbled, mad-cap, spurt toward "dem dar hills." I wish you exquisite thesis had covered that portion of Reno's profound and historic "decision."

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

When someone is doing their job why would you use the term deserted then if you have a clear understanding of military operations.

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If you insist that Reno "did his job" knowing full well that he did not, further exchange on this topic is useless. However, I would be amiss if I failed to mention the following:

My pertinent issue is not that he left the field but, how he left it. The orderly movement of a military unit from an hostile environment untenable due to a superior force must be "covered" by a rear guard action. No attempt was made by Reno to do so, do you agree?

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Reno deserted the line


So when Custer rode off ahead of his troops to do an assessment and make a decision on what to do next to state Custer deserted the battalion or was he doing his expected job.

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I am stupefied by the above comment! Obviously Custer's recognizance to ascertain and develop military intelligence would not be translated as "desertion" by anyone, nor have I. Is it possible that you harbor such an intense and negative perspective of my statements that you simple can not "see" what I an writing?

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Reno had to assure the horses were safe and whether there was a better position based upon what the Indians were doing. It is you use of words such as deserted instead of recon that bothers me. I guess it shouldn't since you believe that account and testimony are the same.

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The senior commander of a military unit is not obligated to ascertain such meanly tasks as to the condition of the horses; that was one of the reasons the military developed junior ranks to take such "burdens" from the shoulder of the commander. If you could show me a single document or account that states Reno looked for anything other than a way out, I would be flabbergasted. By the way, this offer does not include anything by you! Does not the real danger(for the command)exist in a firing line which slowly diminished because no "commander" was in charge to prevent it from doing so. As a result, Reno's military front was dangerously reduced to such a state that danger was suddenly imminent.

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ifwhere the horse o

So is deserted and recon the same also Joe?

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No, obviously the two terms are not the same.

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