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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 03 2004 : 9:01:21 PM
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| How does one get the Indians to return to the reservation without using force (attacking), gentle puersuasion? Secondly, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and a majority of their followers, at this point in time,were not nor had never been members of any reservation, that is way they were referred to as "Hostiles." Therefore, how could they be returned to a situation they had not experienced? The purpose of sending Terry and Custer was to punish the recalcitrant Indians. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 9:29:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
Crab--
Are you involved in the Fox tour of DR next week (is it next week)? Cool guy--quite persuasive, though I'm not convinced ...
movingrobewoman
Trish: Yes, I am going on a private tour very soon with a few friends, led by Fox. Its of the whole field, not just DR. I will post more when I get back. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 9:31:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Crab: Which is it: An empty village or one with 2k warriors?
If you're outnumbered ten to one, what snockered synapse screams "Attack!" anyway?
The point of the campaign was not to 'occupy' the village (hello?) or even to kill Indians. The point was to get them back on the reservation, absent that to kill them and destroy their means for living when off the rez. You can accomplish the latter when they're not at home.
Again, how do you capture an empty village (read: one without occupants) when the 2,000 militant occupants are headed your way?
At the Wa****a, Custer burned the village AFTER driving off the warriors. At LBH, the warriors were in the valley, on the bluffs, etc. They were quite nearby. Capturing the village was not an option unless the warriors were driven away. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 9:45:19 PM
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"The point was to get them back on the reservation."
Please name the battle (any battle) between the U.S. Military and the Indians were the primary purpose was to "Return" Indians to the reservation. Where shots were not fired, where soldiers marched in singing carols of joy, where Indian braves fell upon their knees and welcome the conquering hero's, where mothers did not cry for their dead sons. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 10:45:39 PM
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Crab,
I've grasped the concept, I think. Tell me if I'm wrong. First, defeat the warriors THEN burn the village. But who are you arguing with? You need to recall I was replying last night to Wiggs saying "The capture of a physical village is worthless if the inhabitants are not there." That just isn't true. I have no idea how to capture an empty village with 2k warriors heading your way, and it rather strikes me as an oxymoron. Fight them, I suppose? I'm just guessing here....
Of all the differences between the Wa****a and LBH, you choose very strange ones. At the Wa****a, Custer outnumbered the entire village and greatly outnumbered the fighting men. He attacked in four units at the same time from different directions at dawn of a freezing cold day. Since there is nothing comparable, the question must be why he'd draw - if he did - such conclusions he is said to have drawn from the Wa****a to inform his attack at the LBH.
Again, Wiggs, learn to read. It's proven handy through the years, even for actual police. The purpose of the campaign (the word I used, which is important here since you pretend I said 'battle') - the one involving Crook, Terry, Gibbon - (again, not your 'battle')was to get the Indians back to or, perhaps, on the reservation for the first time, which you apparently feel is a telling blow, even though I wrote 'campaign' and not 'battle.' I know how disappointed you must be to have this drawn to your attention, but if you learned to read this wouldn't happen so much.
A national army of 25k did not want to risk losing soldiers if it were unnecessary to do so. It was assumed that the Indians would fight, but that wasn't the 'point' of the campaign. Capturing the village and all the stock and stuff, making it impossible for them to function off the dole, would be sufficient punishment. It was certainly assumed they would fight.
Now. Page 414 of Connell. Feather Earring told General Scott if Custer had asked the Indians to go back to the reservation, they had previously decided they would have. For what it's worth. So while the purpose of the Battle of the Little Bighorn is unknown, actually, the purpose of the campaign of which it was a part was to corral the Sioux and Cheyenne back to the rez in such poor shape they'd have to stay there. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2004 : 2:38:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Crab,
Of all the differences between the Wa****a and LBH, you choose very strange ones. At the Wa****a, Custer outnumbered the entire village and greatly outnumbered the fighting men. He attacked in four units at the same time from different directions at dawn of a freezing cold day. Since there is nothing comparable, the question must be why he'd draw - if he did - such conclusions he is said to have drawn from the Wa****a to inform his attack at the LBH.
Capturing the village and all the stock and stuff, making it impossible for them to function off the dole, would be sufficient punishment. It was certainly assumed they would fight.
So while the purpose of the Battle of the Little Bighorn is unknown, actually, the purpose of the campaign of which it was a part was to corral the Sioux and Cheyenne back to the rez in such poor shape they'd have to stay there.
In this case, DC, I would have to agree with you. AND if burning the village and killing their horses were manners to force the unwilling back into the fold, then hostages were other good ways (at least in Custer's experience)to bring them hostiles to their neighborhood reservation agency. Whether Custer tried to take hostages in an attempted crossing at MTC or more likely at Ford D, we'll never know, but his past does allude to burning, some pillaging, horse-offing, and the taking of (preferably-ha!) fecund female hostages (Monaseetah)--although Custer's earlier examples of swiping leadership/elders from the various bands usually got the man successful results. I don't really believe that GAC would go to some methodology that he'd never employed before at LBH--it appears from my research that although his personality proved adaptable to battle circumstances, Custer was not a creative genius in war.
It was a dirty and deadly business to get the hostiles back to the Rez, but persuasion, not mass murder, was the ultimate goal. |
movingrobe |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2004 : 5:12:55 PM
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This agreeing with me has to stop. I have my pride, you know. First Heavy Runner - who has no regard for his family's reputation - and now you.
But I'm primarily worried about you. Oh sure, it's fun at first, even kinky, but then the whispered asides begin as you pass people in restaurants, then the notes inquiring if you've lost your mind. Then, eventually, the horror. Your name will come up in conversation and someone will sneer "yeah, well you know who she agreed with once?" And that'll be it. You won't be admitted into the country club.
Not now, of course, not tomorrow, but one day you'll thank me for this. Now, get on the plane and cue up the soundtrack. Edit your post to say "In this case, DC, I am arguably possibly marginally less revolted by your view than previously. From a certain viewpoint. Sorta." |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 03:35:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
This agreeing with me has to stop. I have my pride, you know. First Heavy Runner - who has no regard for his family's reputation - and now you.
But I'm primarily worried about you. Oh sure, it's fun at first, even kinky ...
At the risk of sounding too agreeable, yeah, I can see the point you're trying to make. And, no, I cringe at the very thought of sharing even the tiniest similar thought pattern as you (is that before you eat small children for breakfast??) ... but rest assured, my Lord of Dark Cloudiness, that I can argue to the death with you over your MTC and my Ford D theories.
Though I absolutely must agree, Monsieur Dark Cloud, that GAC would NOT consciously retreat to the horribly uncavalaric grounds of Last Stand Hill--unless pushed from the north ... once Crab sees the joint, he'll agree with us ... or whatever ...
Maybe it's some kind of kinky fetish. But frankly, I think there is more in common among us ... than the few hundred feet (and a million different hypotheses) on a wind-swept battlefield which separates us and our theories of Custer's Ultimate Croak-dom. Whatever happened, he was found on LSH ... though I do retain my own, granted silly and non-important, theories ... of his demise.
You will agree that he is dead, woncha? I mean, he is dead, right? Or goodness, is that another kinky fetish belonging to the true Custer believers?
Hoka hey ... and ya'ta'he'ey! |
movingrobe |
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 12:22:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
You will agree that he is dead, woncha? I mean, he is dead, right? Or goodness, is that another kinky fetish belonging to the true Custer believers?
Hoka hey ... and ya'ta'he'ey!
When you're right, you're right. I just googled Custer and by gosh, by golly, and by carbonate of soda, he's dead. Most sincerely dead. Yea verily dead. Really, really, really dead *d*e*a*d*
But then, so is Patton. And Rommel. And goshgollydammitall, so is Napoleon.
I miss Mosby. And Francis Marion.
And who let Old Beauty get killed?
I still haven't gotten over Arthur's death. Launcelot was suicidal for weeks.
I'm still not sure about that Nazarene, though...
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Deny Everything
Prepare to Panic |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 10:23:18 PM
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From what I have read thus far, only one sourse indicates that Custer was shot/wounded/killed at MTC. That author was David H. Miller. No one else takes this notion seriously. Miller describes a group of soldiers who approached the river at MTC.(Custer's military feint) There, one of the Indians shot a man in a buckskin jacket who, subsequently fell into the river. The fact that several soldiers braved the Indian fire and, immediately retrieved the wounded trooper, convinced them that he had to be a someone important, thus a leader/Custer.
After this incident, the left wing continued north (towards Calhoun Hill) while the right wing executed a movement from Luce Ridge, across Nye-Cartwright to Calhoun Hill with military precision. Being the dynamic leader that he was, the wounding or death of Custer at MTC would probably have resulted in total chaos and, troopers scattering in a non-military manner. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 06 2004 10:34:06 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 10:49:25 PM
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Actually, most military observers who were there said it did look like chaos, except for Calhoun's bunch. And that's why I think Custer was wounded early around MTC.
If you state as fact that the hypothesized incident at the ford took place, apparently YOU take it seriously.
You might want to credit the sources for the last paragraph. As well, explain what was being accomplished by all this military precision, heading away from a crossing and the village. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 3:14:15 PM
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| Once again, and not surprisingly, you are incorrect. Most military observers did not say that the area looked like "Chaos." Benteen stated that the prints of two, shod horses embedded in the mud were the only indication of engagement that he observed. This, of course, does not "chaos" make. No dead, Indians and only, one or two dead soldiers were discovered in the area. Again, evidence that denies a furious battle took place there. For your edification, I clearly posted that no one, other than Miller, took seriously the wounding/death of Custer at the MTC ford. That an incident occurred there should be obvious. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 3:19:59 PM
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| No, I'm not. We're referring to your remark that a wounded Custer would have resulted in chaos, with troopers scattering. That's exactly what the spray of dead looks like: chaos from people fleeing MTC. Most military observers of the entire field said it looked like, in Benteen's words, "absolute confusion" except for Calhoun's area. Learn to read, Wiggs. I'm sure the neighborhood children (are they laughing at you as well, now?) could help you. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 09:07:03 AM
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| Gray suggests Custer divided his command further into 2 units.Troops F,E under Yates while he kept troops C,I,L.However [this from memory]when found on the battle field the troops lay in the following formation C,E,F,I,L, which is the formation they were in when leaving Reno.This would suggest that they never split or attempted any manoeuvers and were just in line astern when hit.[I stand to be corrected on this] |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 09:55:39 AM
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No, it was much more confused than that. Look at Gray's map of grave markers. If you see LSH as the point of an arrowhead, there are two arms, which I think more or less represents two units hustling to LSH. Others do not, though.
Recently, since Gray, there is the theory the 7th tried a counter clockwise motion from the hypothetical reunion point to put troops on relative high ground - itself a bad idea, once you see the field - but the original observation was that everyone was caught rushing to LSH, which I still think is closer to the truth. It sure looks like a horror, though, anyway you frame it. God awful ground. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 08:19:43 AM
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once you see the field
How many days do you need at the LBH.A friend of mine was there a few weeks ago and said he had spent 3 days there but could have spent another 3 days as there were more talks and tours he wanted to take in.I want to go there next year. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 11:02:41 AM
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It takes a day just to barely absorb the place. Look at it this way. Imagine a swath of land averaging two miles wide. Ten miles from Crow's Nest to LBH, five miles north. Thirty square miles. Ish. Very convoluted and deceptive land. The river isn't the same course. It's four miles plus between the Custer memorial and the Reno/Benteen one. You have to illegally stand on Weir Point (I did once....)and Sharpshooter Ridge (Me? No, that wasn't me....)and look north and at where the village was. You have to take the Deep Coulee, Deep Ravine hikes to appreciate that this land is mesohippus hell, and that they ended up on the back ridges because horses couldn't function elsewhere, and that once on these ridges and surrounded they were cooked.
I also think you'll see that if you start a fighting retreat of two companies at MTC, they'd head to LSH if the back three were blocking your turnaround, and that those three in turn would reverse to the back ridges, travelling in parallel to the downslope two and periodically firing to give them support, and meeting on the Custer Ridge/Hill battlefield area. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 1:31:54 PM
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| Thanks DC.Where should I base myself Billings? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 2:03:17 PM
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I'm ancient. I want AC and a pool and options. That Sheridan in Wyoming (55 miles south ish) has something like this keeps me there. I've stayed in closer and cheaper places, but sleep counts. Also, close to Ft. PK and all that. You can do a pretty good sweep on the Indian wars doing Phil Kearny, Wagon Box, Rosebud, and LBH in one day. Won't learn anything, but good photo ops.
My preference is autumn. The Festival of Fat Winnebago Drivers is over, kids are in school, weather the best. Good camping as well.
Also, with the tourists gone, I had some terrific conversations with some Crow folk I met up there at this cafe across from the field entrance. Having nothing to do with the West, it was startling to hear better political analysis than I was used to, and funny! This was mostly decades ago, but it didn't feel lots different when I was last there. Just very relaxed, bad coffee, but good company. I imagine the thrill of being stared at by tourists as "Indians" probably wore off before the Civil War, but they are startlingly polite about it. Better than I would be.
Beware their equivilant of the Shaggy Dog tale which I fell into. It can be about anything, and after the first fifteen minutes pass you've forgotten what the question was, and how you arrived at this complicated community drama that transpired somewhere else involving nobody you've ever heard of. Characters appear at the beginning of the tale complete with family trees and side notes about them, and you try to keep their names straight but they vanish, never to be mentioned again, and the only ones who matter appear about four minutes from the end. I responded to a great many of these stories by saying 'huh' having no clue what conclusion I was to have drawn but knowing I was being laughed at. Probably deservedly. Still, there was no animus.
Hint. Take a sip out of the Rosebud. Get shots first. Water so gross (alkaline?) it can gag a maggot. Imagine that sip is your reward for twenty hours on a horse in 90 degree heat. Then 17 tomorrow without even that. Then come bitch about watering the horses for twenty minutes or a half hour at a bog. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 2:38:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Thanks DC.Where should I base myself Billings?
I’ve been traveling to the LBH every year (sometimes two or three times per year) since 1981. I’ve stayed in every motel in Hardin, Montana (15 miles from the battlefield) and then some. D.C. – why stay in Sheridan? There are a couple of very decent places in Hardin.
WildI – If you come all this way from Ireland then you should do it right (as I hope to someday) and stay at Chip and Sandy Watt’s 7th Ranch at the confluence of Reno Creek and the LBH. The ranch used to be Henry Weibert’s home.
Before I go into that I can tell you about where I’ve stayed for over 12 years in Hardin. It’s a B&B called the Kendrick House. Its owners are the nicest people – Steve and Marcie Smith and they make the best, artery-clogging breakfast west of the Mississippi. They’re number is (406) 665-3035. They’re only open during the summer. If you’re traveling during winter, then you might want to stay at the Super 8 Motel. If need be, sleep in a tent in Medicine Tail Coulee before you stay at the American in Hardin. The long-time owners of the American are the rudest people I’ve ever met and they’ll snatch your wallet at the same time.
Now, back to Chip’s place. You can visit his website at http://www.historicwest.com/ Chip is the treasurer of the Friends of the LBH. Chip’s ranch offers horse rides over Sharpshooter’s Ridge, down Cedar Coulee and Medicine Tail Coulee and just about every where else that you won’t get shot. I’ve never stayed there, but have visited often and seen the lodge of three rooms. They’re very nice and you have access to a full kitchen. If you prefer, you can sleep in one of their tipis.
International friends I’ve met via the Friends of the Little Bighorn end-up staying at Chips. Peter and Terry from New Zealand took every horse ride; they’re favorite was the Benteen Scout. Chip will also take you on car trips to the other battlefields in the area – Rosebud, Fetterman, Wagon Box, Hayfield, etc. Curt Walhrme from Sweden loved the ranch as well.
Feel free to contact me if you have further questions on places to stay.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on August 12 2004 2:41:37 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 3:03:58 PM
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Well done lads.Much appreciate that.
Regards |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 11:40:04 PM
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Well, Bhist, I suppose it comes down to my entourage, no parking for the Tour Bus, the paparazi (I can be a burden, I guess....), and no pool, as I recall. Further have you ever ordered Foie Gras in Harding?
Hardin, is it? Okay, they even drop the 'g' in writing. I gave the chef at the Dew Drop Inn In Lodge Grass explicit instruction on how to prepare my Steak Tartar, with correct sequence for the application of herbs, and they LAUGHED at me! Further, they had no Lithuanian Beer and no Francois Hardy on the juke box. I mean, really.
Well, you have to suffer if you want to sing the Blues. The horrors I've been through. No, I prefer the Sheridan Holiday Inn with enough chlorine from their indoor pool in the lobby air and that of all poolside rooms to neuter a Longhorn. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2004 : 02:54:10 AM
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For those who've never traveled to the battlefield you probably don't get the jest of D.C.'s post regarding the menu choices in Montana. Put simply, you don't have much to choose from and what you do have is mostly bad.
I usually eat nothing but salad for six months before I travel to Montana knowing my staple there will be vitamin G -- that's vitamin grease!!
Speaking of which. If you do stay in Hardin, or just chose to eat in Hardin, DO NOT -- I repeat, DO NOT eat at the Purple Cow. And, while I’m at it – DO NOT eat at Little Big Men pizza either.
A recent addition to the menu is the Lariat Cafe (or something like that -- I looked it up, it's the Lariat Country Kitchen) and it's the best choice in Hardin. Now, please keep in mind, when I say the best that doesn't mean it should be featured in the Food section of the "NY Times."
Edited to correct Lariat Cafe
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on August 13 2004 02:59:10 AM |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2004 : 11:44:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
A recent addition to the menu is the Lariat Cafe (or something like that -- I looked it up, it's the Lariat Country Kitchen) and it's the best choice in Hardin. Now, please keep in mind, when I say the best that doesn't mean it should be featured in the Food section of the "NY Times."
Is the Lariat Cafe attached to the Lariat Motel? I have heard, and it is very possibly just a rumour, the motel actually has showers!
As for the food--when ya go to Montana, you better be prepared to be a carnivore and every place it seems, even the most hole-in-the-wall outfit seems to have a Casino (capitalized for emphasis). I recall asking one of maitre d's at one establishment where their baccarat tables were ...
But I am taking your advice--we'll be making Hardin our supply depot next anniversary (sigh). I wonder why I am suddenly jealous of Terry's accomidations on the Far West? |
movingrobe |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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LSH
