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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 30 2004 : 2:07:36 PM
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| Dark Cloud: I don't find the theory that Custer was hit at MTF to be unreasonable, but it does open questions. I don't see how a bare hill off in the distance, in the wrong direction from expected support, would be the place chosen for a wounded man. Also you now have TWC along with headquarters getting the wounded Custer to LSH. A few days ago you insisted that Tom was with C troop, and C is back with Keogh's command. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 2:27:10 PM
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I did? He should have been, but I've always been of the opinion the brothers were together. In order to take a shot at someone else's theory, I may have briefly accepted that possibility. All of these issues are designed to keep the last stand, though, and as such are suspicious to me.
As for the heading for LSH, there could well have been all sorts of coagulation at the ford with a 200 man line and this was unobstructed or they were chasing a hurt and runaway horse. I don't know. But I can accept they got there by mistake rather than in the process of offense. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 3:16:22 PM
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DC,
If we do agree, we'll just have to live with it. I'll warn the family.
My thinking on this is the result of a combination of things, including the research and stories of several authors regarding the battle, Custer's personal style (leading the charge), and, of course, the descriptions gleaned from those Sioux and Cheyenne who were in the village at the time Custer's advance. Also, standing and viewing from the high ground several times can give even an untrained eye the view of military disarray. So, I'm including my perceptions, which I trust.
If they were crossing the river in a column of fours or even more spread out, Custer was front and center. For one thing, I cannot see Custer crossing the river and then saying, "oh, never mind." I believe he was brave enough, and foolhardy enought to keep going, regardless of opposing fire.
In my opinion, he was blown right off his horse, or nearly so. I would never believe he was in command. It all happened so fast and in such a fragmented way, I have to wonder whether anyone was really in command of the column. It does not appear to me that any kind of communication existed--at least effective communication--in the half hour, or so, it took to wipe out the column. |
Bob Bostwick |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 4:25:09 PM
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If I understand your posts, Bob, you’re describing the incident at MTC as a charge upon the village with Custer in the front, but shot and wounded. You base this solely on the idea that Custer was always in the front of a charge (true during the Civil War).
Why would Custer plan to charge the village with two companies at the river leaving three companies way back on the ridges?
Why wouldn’t the situation have been two companies at the river for reconnaissance? If that were true, then the logical place for Custer would’ve been on the high ridges to the east for the worldview of the situation around him. If he’s down by the river, he has no idea what his options are because he’s blindsided by bluffs to his north and south.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 10:06:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Given how bad communications have been throughout, this projected scenario of crisp Ft. Benning like orders instantaneously producing a new command structure is puzzling. Keogh could very well have never known Custer's supposed condition, and was wondering what the hell was going on to his death.
You have me thinking. You would think, that given GAC's reliance upon tactical manuals in all things Seventh, that somewhere along the line there was some discussion of a command structure, should the worst happen. But that does frankly strike me as un-Custer, especially if he were under the assumption that he had caught the Indians "napping" and besides, the command would have normally gone to Reno then Benteen. Okay, so I was shooting for a cell-phone type of perfection in that scenario--so your point is taken.
This is why I am enamoured, although not convinced of the proponents of the Ford D theory--it appears to keep Custer on the offensive, and when forced back there (either by Crazy Horse and his millions or by a bunch of blanket waving angry females), it seems to make sense to drop back to LSH and closer to possible help by either Reno or Benteen. But as I said, I am not enamoured of the thing; I have not seen any well footnoted writing regarding that point (anyone?).
Now as for TWC being on LSH--going with your family theory, then maybe he dragged his wounded/dying bro to the knoll and got caught. Maybe that would account for his presence there--with TWC thinking that everyone (Harrington) was as battle-hearty as he. I have heard it both ways--that C was under Keogh's control and that C was under HQ control.
I am just throwing some theories out in the air, I realise.
I went to MTC this year with the express idea of seeing what kind of physical geography we are dealing with in regards to a possible Custer offing there, with a snatch and run with his body and it just seems really unlikely. On a map it all looks so easy. Like you, I do think that that the wound to the left side was not immediately fatal--it was more of a slow killer (I compare it to Princess Diana's aorta tear), leaving GAC in some state of consciousness (like she)until he started coughing up blood--which must have given the Boy General him a clue that it twas a bit more serious.
Movingrobe
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 10:48:20 AM
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After MTC, we're ALL throwing theories into the air. Me higher than most, and with less actual evidence.
TWC was with his brother till Martin left, anyway. I don't see any reason to suppose he rejoined his company.
LSH only makes sense if the way south from MTC is blocked by fighting and a disorganized maelstrom of cavalry trying to get turned around under fire. I don't see how the geography affects the wounded-rescue scenario, although my opinion might be compromised by the annoyingly affectionate cattle that played a big role in my visit there where the nimbus descended and I was informed.
It's just plain to me how very bad the ground west of Weir Point is for cavalry, and I don't believe anyone would risk getting caught on it, so what would compel the guys to run up top to provide better targets away from the village and further from the rest of the regiment? "Logic" doesn't elbow its way to the front of my mind, but maybe.....
'First, get Autie some attention in safety, THEN we'll settle with these SOB's!'
I have a chemical animosity towards any theory involving Custer waiting for something to happen, like be rescued, and there were still alternatives after a repulsed attack and he took the one that makes the least sense which indicates the five companies had no central command. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 2:14:02 PM
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The discussion here is interesting, particularly with so many well-informed individuals.
Yes, we're all delivering theory, speculation, perceptions and ideas. I claim nothing more than my own, based on reading, to be sure, and stories I've heard here in Indian Country. I've even been told or have read, or both, that Custer's chest wound was delivered by a 12-year old boy at the edge of the village. Whatever the truth may be, the column was not only stopped in its tracks, it was rapidly broken up and overwhelmed.
Wasn't it about 76 men believed to have been trapped and wiped out in Deep Ravine, yet to be found? That's more than were found on Last Stand Hill, if I remember correctly. We don't know which is which, but the field there is strewn with markers of dead who may have been running for their lives, regardless of command; others committed suicide. One of the Indian fighters said the whole business took no longer than the amount of time he spent having his lunch (a half hour?).
Perhaps I come across as if I'm sewing speculation in order to reap logic. However, I believe strongly that effedctive command structure was almost completely broken, scattered like the dead on that field.
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 8:45:09 PM
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There were apparently, depending on which account you read, about 28 men in a ravine. The burial accounts and re-burial expeditions never mention more than a few, if any, soldiers being removed from a ravine and buried elsewhere. The story goes they pushed dirt on top of the bodies from above, and that was that. Now those graves have not been found, despite much looking.
If Custer was hit at the MTC ford, then why are 3 out of the 5 companies seemingly unengaged while L and possibly part of C (on Finley) skirmished? None of it makes sense at all, even with a dead or dying Custer. Companies did not jam up at MTC. I, C and L seemed to have stayed on the high ridges, only moving north when the left wing (E and F) moved back up from the river.
I don't believe the volleys were a distress call, the note from Cooke wasn't either. The battle wasn't over in minutes, if you start counting from Custer's appearance at MTC. It seems the short duration of time (the time it takes the sun to travel the width of a lodge pole, a hungry man eating his dinner, etc) speak of the battle as it intensified. And it appeared, once the battalion began falling apart, it did very quickly. Michno seems to think it lasted about 2 hours, and the majority of the battalion was destroyed in about the last 20-30 minutes or so.
I won't really address the viability of crossing at MTC, since I have yet to see it in person. I can say something in a few weeks on that. But from some pictures I've seen, they'd have to form up to charge AFTER crossing the river. And how much terrain would be needed to do that and gain the momentum to charge?
Again, I just can't see the end result due to Custer hit near the ford. Sure, the battalion might have well been annihilated, but not after 2 hours. And the known actions (L skirmishing, E and F moving north, possibly west of LSH and back) don't fit that theory.
And its time we all moved on from the idea that Custer was forced back, under great duress, herded to the ridge and slaughtered. Where are the casualties? Why were only C and L soldiers found on Finley and Calhoun hill? Sure, not everyone was identified, but some privates were. And none from F, E or I were found in those positions. And no E or F soldiers were found at I company's position, either. But all 5 companies were represented at LSH. Where's the trail of dead? Reno's command fled, and was decimated. Custer's command headed north, forced that direction, and suffers few casualties. And if they were forced there, again, why only post L and maybe part of C to defend the entire battalion?
Also, I think too many people put too much emphasis on where bodies were seemingly buried. Think of this: finding bodies in skirmish order doesn't mean they were killed in skirmish order UNLESS overwhelmed quickly. If you're in a unit of 20 men, in a line, do you stand there, at your spot in the line even as the other 19 are shot down? The only way I see that happening is if you have nowhere else to go. But even LSH seemed to have escape routes, as soldiers ran down the hill, past warriors, only to be killed. That aside, at some point before a 100% casualty rate is realized, soldiers will flee or change positions. Just because soldiers are found dead in "positions" doesn't mean they all fought together in that position. Unless they were pretty much killed at exactly the same time. Otherwise, not every soldier grave is where they fought, but where they died.
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I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 9:21:30 PM
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| I agree that the volley firing nor Custer's last message automatically implied that the command was in distress. My only issue is with those who insist(not you of course) that no one (other than Weir?) heard the discharges at all. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 31 2004 9:23:46 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 11:11:49 PM
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Other than bad cavalry country, there's nothing awful about MTC as a crossing spot. The Sioux didn't think so, anyway. There is no way or point to forming for a charge in line; just get in there and shoot. Visualize Yates' crew heading in, maybe with Custer off to the side, maybe with him leading. Keogh's crew is ambling down MTC gaining speed behind. C is hit, they pull up - bunch, yes - he's led off away from current fire with the lead company while the second fights a rear guard. Keogh sees the first two head off to his right and pulls back, peridically providing some covering fire awaiting instruction for this new and unexpected movement. It looked utterly believable to me.
Nobody insists, Wiggs, that no one, other than Weir, heard the discharges. You're making that up in hopes you can perceive youself as winning something, anything, but it's a straw dog. Everyone heard the shooting. Some said they were in volleys, others do not, some recall it as heavy, others do not. If you actually read the posts, you'd know that. Those doing the most running around on Reno Hill are the ones with the least memory of such distinctive fire. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 11:35:50 PM
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Thanks, Crab, for correcting the number at Deep Ravine. I don't know which company was doing what, or to whom, but it's clear to me that Custer's intent was a full-on assault, rather than holding back companies in reserve or in defensive positions. So, if Custer's only experience attacking a village was at the Wa****a, it would make sense to me that he would rely on that "victory" experience by using the same, or very similar, tactics.
I simply believe Custer was mortally wounded at the outset. The rest, outnumbered 10-1 or more by a well-armed and highly-motivated foe, would have suffered immense and rapid casualties in the counter attack, which would have come from at least two sides, outflanking the soldiers and cutting off all escape.
Two hours? I don't buy that, unless we're including the time it took to finish off the wounded, strip and mutilate the bodies. My greatest impression of the battlefield was what appeared to me as a breakdown in the chain of command. It appeared to me that soldiers were heading fanny over tea kettle in reverse. |
Bob Bostwick |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2004 : 12:39:02 AM
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Gray also believes it was about 2 hours, based on his time-motion.
There's no account that I've read that speaks of Keogh's battalion doing anything but heading north along the ridge while the left wing headed down MTC. No mention of all 5 companies headed in the same direction.
The Sioux didn't ride in formations, they didn't have to form up into line to charge. And most of them crossed at MTC under no pressure, no firing. They crossed to chase Custer's battalion. Individuals acting and fighting as such would have no problem crossing at MTC to chase soldiers who had already headed up the slopes. They don't have to move from 2s or 4s to another formation, gather speed and then charge.
Perhaps, from seeing the it from high above as his battalion filed along, Custer saw an "empty" village. So the plan changed, and the left wing was sent down to check things out and test the viability of a fording, while Custer watched from above, through DeRudio's glasses. Light firing is encountered and the villagers are all fleeing to the north. So what's the point of charging an empty village? He can't go in and expect to do much with the village while 2,000 warriors are still very nearby and very pissed off. And the campaign was to bring them back onto the reservation, not to let them get away while you burn their village (though that's a good start, IMO). So its off after the villagers, who were heading north. And the rest is history...
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I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2004 : 01:04:27 AM
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Since the Sioux had no word for 'company' or 'battalion', there is no testimony, if such it can be called. Most of that stuff reads like polite answers to leading questions. Still, you're right, there is no evidence for my point of view, but none against, either.
I'm hardly certain formation riding was an issue attacking a lodge village, as if you had to make a good impression. Please, no theoretics on the noble cavalry charge; nobody was going to risk a horse's legs running blind into a lodge to stay in line, because some of those poles are thick, bend, and snap back. It's just serpentine lines of cavalrymen firing pistols or whatever as things developed, at least at first.
But shock and speed were the friend of cavalry, and this scenario of Custer watching from above makes zero sense, because the depth of the river is pretty obvious, and testing the situation is a tad dainty for the Custer of history, who's now still and visible. But worse, sorta/kinda attacking and then leading your enemy to where you HAVE to fight as infantry makes no, zero, negative sense to me, and you can pretty much see all this from the MTC ford area and Weir Point, for that matter.
He's too far away to support Yate's attack or to provide effective covering fire at ranges which, he must have known, his soldiers stunk. These are all theories to excuse Custer not crossing or doing anything that makes much sense given the land and survival instinct.
Regarding Gray, he's on Guess Time like we are after MTC. He's got the 6PM return to Reno Hill, and the last mention of firing, but mostly it would seem from 4:45 to 5:30 Custer ceased to be as a unit of note. Or worthy of rescue even had it been possible. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 01 2004 01:16:59 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2004 : 2:11:33 PM
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I agree that the volley firing nor Custer's last message automatically implied that the command was in distress. My only issue is with those who insist(not you of course) that no one (other than Weir?) heard the discharges at all.
Has anyone ever taken a few pistols and rifles out there and fired them off to see if they could heard from the Weir/reno positions? |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2004 : 3:04:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Has anyone ever taken a few pistols and rifles out there and fired them off to see if they could heard from the Weir/reno positions?
Wild, this link may help answer some of your questions regarding testing performed to determine how far the discharge of weapons could be heard.
http://americanhistory.about.com/library/prm/bllittlebighorn2.htm
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 02 2004 : 4:40:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
But shock and speed were the friend of cavalry, and this scenario of Custer watching from above makes zero sense, because the depth of the river is pretty obvious, and testing the situation is a tad dainty for the Custer of history, who's now still and visible.
The activity at MTC is, indeed, problematic. And I will hand you this, DC, that to me, GAC defensively heading over a variety of steep elevations to a relatively small knoll--further away from Benteen and Reno--an area that forces him to fight on foot, does seem to generally break with the Custer we all know and ... well, know.
This is why Ford D is starting to make more sense. The land there is IMHO, more suitable (read as flatter) for cavalry--he has Bouyer with him, giving him directions and the village ends before that point. And plus, he is kept on the offensive--then, when he is repulsed there by CH and his millions, it seems more logical to fall back to LSH, with a close to final battle at Cemetery Ridge, with E falling back to LSH--eventually. I know one of the problems with Ford D is the timing element, but Mike Donahue is conducting time-trials to see the viability of timely movement from SSR to Ford D, including a "sightseeing" stop at MTC.
But I am concerned about the MTC foray. Another example of GAC doing what? Being blond? But something happened on NCR ...
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 02 2004 : 10:14:38 PM
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Perhaps, and this only conjecture on my part, Custers'
continued separation (in time and space) from Benteen is plausible. He was following the "jack-pot" of the battle; Indian women and children. The capture of a physical village is worthless if the inhabitants are not there. There is evidence that Custer observed non-combatants fleeing towards the environs of Ford "D". The capture of these women and children would have effectively robbed the warriors of any offensive. This factor would, of course, explain Custer's movements. There exist physical evidence that such a foray to Ford "D" occurred. The body of the reporter, Mark Kellogg, was discovered in that vicinity. The only two ways Kellogg's body could have gotten there was that he was killed while with Custer in the area, or he ran through the Indian front from LSH during the battle which, on the surface, seems impossible.
Custer's actions at MTC may best be explained as a military "feint" designed for two purposes:
A. To relieve Reno (which certainly succeeded);
B.) Continue the stampede of the women and children.(this too was accomplished.} |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 02 2004 10:20:36 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 02 2004 : 11:55:21 PM
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Have no clue what you mean by separate in time, but Custer and Benteen were separate in space, so it's most fortunate you find it plausible, because that's what happened.
No, it wasn't worthless to capture an empty village. You burn everything and they have to replace it, somehow. Food, ammo, weapons, clothing. You kill the stock. They return to the rez out of necessity.
The capture of Cheyenne or San Arcs women and children is not known to slow down Unkpapa, especially those who've lost women and children so recently to Reno like, oh, Gall. So this is reasoning most convenient ,except that the quickest way there - through MTC - was bypassed for a supposed scenic trot to a more northern hypothetical crossing point allowing, in Custer's phrase, the 7th to become the observed of all observers, who'd rush to welcome them. Rather than hit them with all the surprise you'll ever have at MTC.
If hostages were such a great idea, a sure thing preventing Indian offense, then there was no point for that brilliant ruse at the Wa****a, then, was there? Since the Indians wouldn't attack with hostages and all, that march towards the other villages and quick retreat seems rather pointlessly exhausting. Or, more likely, sorta indicating nobody in their right mind at the time thought what is now contended as their reasoning.
Why does the location of Kellog's body - wherever that was - indicate anything more than a runaway horse, or desperate escape attempt? Or being dragged there.
Reno's retreat to a more easily defended area at the coincidental same time as the MTC incident in aggregate served to draw the enemy away from Reno, who no longer could so easily shoot into the camp. If Custer thought a feint alone would do this, perhaps he also put some effort into considering what might happen when all - or significant numbers of - the Indians turned towards him. If he thought Benteen's three companies could do all that needed to be done, and surely with Reno's three, the you'd think he'd realize he himself with five could accomplish about the same. Yet.....
There may have been a decision that led them to LSH, but I just don't see Custer making it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 12:14:25 AM
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| How do you burn a large village when you're outnumbered 10-1? In order to occupy the village, those 1500-2000 undefeated warriors would have to be dealt with. So again, why charge an empty village? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 12:24:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Why does the location of Kellog's body - wherever that was - indicate anything more than a runaway horse, or desperate escape attempt? Or being dragged there.
Just for clarification--I was under the assumption that Kellogg travelled in a very Crook-ian manner--mule. And that his body was found north of MTC, somewhere near the base of Cemetery Ridge, well south of Ford D. Overtaken by Cheyenne? But I believe Snelson states that Kellogg's body placement was not out of the ordinary, if you believe in an attempted crossing at Ford D (but weird if GAC, F, and E are booking down BR to Ford D), following the river. Not that I have a lot of faith in Snelson (dammit, my marker map is in the 'quiet room'). But whatever happened, it appears poor Mark keeled over quite apart from his hero, GAC. Whatever.
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Edited by - movingrobewoman on August 03 2004 12:39:18 AM |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 12:26:57 AM
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Crab--
Are you involved in the Fox tour of DR next week (is it next week)? Cool guy--quite persuasive, though I'm not convinced ...
movingrobewoman |
movingrobe |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 09:29:50 AM
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Crab: Which is it: An empty village or one with 2k warriors?
If you're outnumbered ten to one, what snockered synapse screams "Attack!" anyway?
The point of the campaign was not to 'occupy' the village (hello?) or even to kill Indians. The point was to get them back on the reservation, absent that to kill them and destroy their means for living when off the rez. You can accomplish the latter when they're not at home. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 10:14:46 AM
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The point of the campaign was not to 'occupy' the village (hello?) or even to kill Indians. The point was to get them back on the reservation
And Custer's orders to his units to "pitch into anything they found"would of course confirn this benign purpose? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 11:02:30 AM
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| A purpose neither benign nor realistic, and Custer had concluded, as per the part of my sentence you omit, the need for violence. Further, the orders you quote only went to Benteen, not to Reno. Not to McDougall. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 3:06:13 PM
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As has been pointed out, Last Stand Hill, although the high ground, is hardly a defendable position with a massive force coming from, at the end, four sides.
Interestingly, it's the site on the battlefield farthest (as I recall) from where the village stood. It's an ironic point, but this is where the Indians and the 7th agreed--they both wanted the soldiers, once the fighting began and the outcome obvious) as far from the village as possible.
In my opinion, that fragment of the command found on the hill didn't exactly retreat. I believe they stumbled in that direction, a few trying to rally to their fallen commander. I see it as if they were almost herded there before the final slaughter. This might also somewhat explain, as has been brought up, why so many companies were represented among the dead there. |
Bob Bostwick |
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LSH
