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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - April 28 2005 : 12:02:44 PM
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Terry's instructions, now called orders, weren't ambiguous, just wordy. They clearly granted leeway and Custer took advantage of it based on info he thought was correct, or could so claim. Everything Custer did to Weir Point and MTC makes a certain sense (except those couriers to Benteen), but when he continued past MTC he was cooked regardless of what anyone did. The village wasn't running at that point (some were packing), and he could have reversed and supported Reno, brought up Benteen and the train and maybe encouraged movement north into Terry. This depends on what the numbers involved were.
Regardless, to that point he was okay. It's that decision that wrecked the day, to attack/feint and be buffetted north and away rather than assemble the regiment. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 12:29:38 PM
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They clearly granted leeway and Custer took advantage of it based on info he thought was correct,
What info DC? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 1:41:05 PM
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| Was he discovered on the Rosebud? |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 1:51:45 PM
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Wild I, the point was that Hare rode from Reno Hill to the pack train and back in 20 minutes. The train could not have been far from RH so travelled about as fast as Benteen.
If the village had been further up the LBH, then Custer would probably have continued south. After all to this point he had followed Terry's suggestions. The freshness of the trail indicated that the village was close, as it was. If he had continued South along the Rosebud, he would have been leaving the Indians an escape route to the East. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 2:25:34 PM
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Gee, not long ago you were arguing that Sioux Command and Control had tracked them from the Yellowstone.
I don't know when or if they were "discovered" at all, at least by Indians associated with the camp, or anyone who cared enough to inform it. The village didn't react, so it's tough to claim it did. But scouts claimed they saw Sioux and the assumption was that there were always Indians you didn't see. In any event, he was allowed to act if he thought it best to do so. His decision was wrong, as it happens, but you can make a strong argument, and many have, that he was following orders because he could strike the village before they were aware and then, when told they'd been seen, concluded they must be aware, and so attacked on the 25th. I think he clearly was looking to do what he did from the get go, but he made a command decision fully in keeping with Terry's instructions. It was wrong, is all.
The train was stretched out for quite a ways. The distance to the first mule is not the bulk of the train, and it took about an hour for it all to drag into Reno Hill, according to one of the scouts. The two "ammo" mules had tools as well. Huh. Not just ammo..... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 28 2005 2:33:33 PM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 3:10:55 PM
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| DC,stragglers aren't the bulk of the pack train either. I only recently heard of the ammo mules carring shovels. Where does that come from? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 7:44:33 PM
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| I just noticed myself. On Gray's timeline, p. 310. The first two ammo mules arrive with tools. Tool mules arrive with ammo. Of course, if the Army didn't have all those graveyard shovels on hand from the Civil War, and then tried to save a buck by just shortening the handle for cavalry use, they could have bought the Christman-Feldweir LiteWeight Intrenching Tool Model AC4x!! Made in Ireland, but still. With those babies, battlements ten feet high and as thick could have been completed by 1900 hours completely surrounding Reno Hill, and then they folded into grenade launchers or (with the AC4d-see order form) martini pitchers when done. Yeah, tell me that wouldn't have made a difference. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2005 : 8:09:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I just noticed myself. On Gray's timeline, p. 310. The first two ammo mules arrive with tools. Tool mules arrive with ammo. Of course, if the Army didn't have all those graveyard shovels on hand from the Civil War, and then tried to save a buck by just shortening the handle for cavalry use, they could have bought the Christman-Feldweir LiteWeight Intrenching Tool Model AC4x!! Made in Ireland, but still. With those babies, battlements ten feet high and as thick could have been completed by 1900 hours completely surrounding Reno Hill, and then they folded into grenade launchers or (with the AC4d-see order form) martini pitchers when done. Yeah, tell me that wouldn't have made a difference.
Actually, it was the trowel-bayonet and the same board which selected the Springfield .45 70 carbine narrowly voted against the adoption of it. I have the Ordnance Report somewhere around here showing the tests which were conducted, fairly extensive also, as well as the various recommendations by Reno & Terry. If you will recall, there was a bitter letter from Reno post-LBH directed towards the infantry officer who voted against the trowel-bayonet because it did not look spiffy.
Next chance I have, I will scan that Ordnance Report...which does remind me, I do need to copy the tests the Breech-Loading Board ran all the weapons through and the results.
Time to take a nap for work tonight...think I will read about the cholera epidemic of 1866 or 1867 so I don't sleep too well 
Billy
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 29 2005 : 10:12:52 AM
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Gee, not long ago you were arguing that Sioux Command and Control had tracked them from the Yellowstone.
Silly facile point DC.What the Indians knew was irrelevant.You can only judge Custers actions based on what he knew.
Custer was not discovered until he left the Rosebud in contravention of Terry's wishes.That discovery then set in motion a train of events which brought about his destruction.
Prolar. From Memory.Benteen was 20 minutes ahead of the 2 ammo mules at the morass.He arrived at Reno's position 60 minutes ahead of them.
By my reckoning he made up 40 minutes on them.Don't see your point |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 29 2005 : 3:08:57 PM
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| Wild I, according to Gray's timeline you are right. But by the same timeline, Benteen plodded along at the 3mph packtrain pace until Martin's message and the sound of firing from Reno's fight finally caused him to get a move on. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 29 2005 : 4:13:44 PM
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Again, till the bog, Benteen's horses hadn't been watered for what, seventeen hours on tough ground on a ninety five degree day? The insistence on his obligation to race ahead is demonstrably unfair. His job was to make as good time as possible and arrive with stock ready to charge and/or fight. Something Custer, by the way, apparently didn't do, given Martin's exhausted horse, plus the few that collapsed. If they are in any way indicative of the state of Custer's horses, he couldn't have made much of an attack had he gotten around to it anyway.
Having been told by Kanipe that the attack was being made and things going well (which became more detailed only in 1903 to include pleas for speed), there was no point for Benteen doing more than he did, which was responsible and, as it turned out, correct. Nobody thought there was trouble, and Benteen's concerns were more towards restraining the hotheads. When he heard firing, he ran towards it - something, we need to recall, Custer didn't do - and not past it. The gracious promenade along the bluffs, the leisurely wave, stopping to tighten the saddles, and an hour after Reno charged, doing something or other that failed on MTC and starting a process that got him wiped out to no purpose, if he was at the helm.
Nobody would not relish getting to rescue the commander, especially that commander, and Benteen especially would think this, so the whole case against Benteen makes no sense. Saving Custer would satisfy his ego, their alleged feud, elevate him within and without the command. There was and is no upside to the opposite, except it gets conversation started about Benteen rather than how Custer screwed up. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 29 2005 4:18:12 PM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 29 2005 : 8:04:07 PM
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| Dark Cloud, I suppose Benteen's horses were no more thirsty than Custer's and Reno's. Kanipe's horse made the trip to Weir Point and back with no problem that I know of. Martin's horse had been shot. Still he rode back to the packtrain for another and caught Benteen. Boston Custer overtook and passed Benteen. No one including the pack mules had any trouble keeping up with Benteen until he finally "took the gallop". |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - April 29 2005 : 9:58:45 PM
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Politics, Religion, and the Battle of the Little Big Horn. I can think of no other topic that will produce more rancor, ill-will, or threats of bodily harm as these three;as evident by the responses on this forum.
The difficulty in taking the stance that I have chosen to do is exemplified by, what I believe to be,an erroneous perception that I am proffering the theory that the Major was the antithesis of Custer. Where Custer was brave, Benteen was craven, while Custer was a hero/savior, Benteen was his "Judas", while Custer was a "Beau Geste", Benteen was a country bumpkin and, finally, Custer would have won the battle had his subordinate followed orders.
I do not believe the above statements, have never believed them, and never will. However, I do believe that Benteen disobeyed a direct order. This disobedience has nothing to do with morality, courage, cowardice or Satanism. It simple is. The evidence to confirm or dis-affirm my position can not be based upon Custer's previous actions prior to issuing the order. Such actions, be they imbecilic, bizarre, or disturbingly stupid are irrelevant when discussing the legality of an issued order. Custer may or may not have dis-obeyed his orders, he may or may not have pursued the Indians to quickly, he may or may not have been a glory seeker to attack the village as he did. Again, these factors have nothing to do with his confirmed authority to issue a legal order to a subordinate!
Finally, I do not wish to infer, and I apologize if I have, that Benteen was anything less that a stalwart soldier. His courage in combat has been well documented and never disputed by me. He was as brave a soldier as his era could muster. Much has been made of my statement in which I affirmed that he decided to conjoin with Reno after seeing twelve or so soldiers being slaughtered by (Benteen's own count) 900 warriors. This was a statement of fact, not a condemnation of an action. It happened. The men died while their was an opportunity to prevent their deaths. Perhaps it was wise that no attempt was made, that's another issue, we will never know because no attempt was made! I did not create this action for the sole purpose of damning Reno.
Finally, I would like to present two reasons why I believe my position has merit:
Firstly, I am convinced that Benteen did not fully comprehend the order when he initially received them. This, I feel, was attributed to an significant error by the actual writer of the note, Lt. Cook. In his haste/excitement, Lt. Cook forgot to specify ammunition packs. At a critical moment he realized this and attempted to add a post script but, repeated the same mistake; "bring pac's." Benteen having no idea or way of knowing what Custer was facing, rightfully assumed that the General meant the "packs" in general, the pack train that is. To go back on the trail to rush the train forward would be counter productive to the command,"hurry." Remember, Benteen showed the note to Weir who made no comment. Weir, an ardent member of the Custer conclave, would have surely have protested, vehemently, if he thought something was amiss. The fact that he did not verifies that neither of them understood the message as intended.
When Benteen, later, observed the might of the hostiles arrayed against him, he decided not to cross the river but, instead turned his battalion to the right and rode towards the bluffs. To discuss his rationale for doing so I now turn to Edgar I. Stewart for further edification: P.389
"For this decision Benteen later gave conflicting explanations. In 1879 he simply stated that he believed that the entire command had been thrashed and that it was not a good place to cross, but earlier, in his REPORT, he had written that his decision was due to the fact that he felt that, with the great number of recruits, his battalion would stand absolutely no chance as mounted men against the nine hundred or so VETERAN warriors he estimated were in the valley."
Lastly, Benteen's decision to do what he did is the subject of another post. He may have thought that Custer, with his five troops, was in no worst a position then he and Reno. He may have felt that Custer may have left the field without insuring the whereabouts of the rest of his command, he may have thought a great many things, who knows? Personally, I understand his rationale. Under the same set of circumstances I probably would have made the same decision. If I did however, and mitigating circumstances aside, I too would have been guilty of disobeying a "Direct Order." |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on April 29 2005 10:15:35 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 30 2005 : 01:23:56 AM
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Guys, please read Godfrey's account (link on the research page) where he says that after leaving the morass and heading towards the river, they ended up in a gallop thinking the Indians coming towards them were hostile...turns out they were scouts.
Perhaps I don't have it exactly correct but I remember Godfrey stating that they a)galloped towareds what they thought were hostiles and b) then headed towards what became known as Reno Hill.
The horses, from my understanding, had not been watered fully all day.
Billy
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 30 2005 : 12:09:53 PM
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Benteen and others say they hadn't been able to water the horses since 8 the night previous, and that at an alkaline stream, which some couldn't drink at all. Nobody in the command disagreed with this through the years.
Reno and Custer followed a stream bed down to the LBH. Benteen did not for a major portion of ground that looks more troubling. On the map, Benteen may have travelled not much more distance than Custer, but in reality the up and down added much, and Benteen and his officers all noted that. Would Custerphiles do the same.
Later, much is made of the time spent at the morass. Custerphiles hysterically make a big deal about the time spent, although they 1.)don't know the exact location or 2.)the exact size or 3.)how many horses could water at a time without it getting churned to where those that followed couldn't drink enough. Except for those excited about a fight soon, nobody thought this wrong, at least till later when suddenly they recalled urging Benteen forward or expressing anxiety. When the packs arrived in their usual uncontrolled state, the first mules ran and mucked it all up, so it's a mess getting the mules watered in order and moved out. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 30 2005 : 2:15:52 PM
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| I don't have all these feelings of rancor, anger, and disgust that Wiggs mentioned. I don't think Benteen was a coward, he certainly proved otherwise. I think he hated and resented Custer and took every opportunity short of outright insubordination to show it.I don't condemn him for stopping to water his horses, stopping to help Reno, or for not crossing the river. I think he understood what he was to do on his scout and lied about it afterward. I'm sure that watering the pack train was a mess, but it took Benteen as long as the packtrain if Gray is right. His batallion did gallop at the very end once they heard firing. Before this he maintained a pack mule pace. I have never heard that troopers went without sleep for three nights. I'm sure they were hot, tired, and thirsty, but my most accounts were in good spirits. Both Reno's and Custer's troops were described as cheering at different times. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 30 2005 : 2:21:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Billy: Do you have citations to prove the opposite of what you are saying you forgot to post? Please place them along with your original post so we can all laugh at once.
Sure Paulie, go look in the Research thread where I posted the link to Godfrey's Century magaine article.
Enjoy the laugh.
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 30 2005 : 2:33:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Billy: Do you have citations to prove the opposite of what you are saying you forgot to post? Please place them along with your original post so we can all laugh at once.
I have been known to take pity upon the mentally handicapped of the world, so in that vein Paulie, I will give you the link and even the page number.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABP2287-0043-105
Don't tell anyone, but it is on page 372 in the column on the right, second paragraph. You might even read the fourth sentence in that paragraph. Or should I read it for you?
Later,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 01 2005 : 09:19:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Billieboy: I don't read liars citations anymore! Sorry about that!
Considering your latest postings, it is wise you have pity for the mentally handicaped and the liars of the world!!!
Who are you trying to BS today Billie Boy, Billie Boy???
Obfuscate: to make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand.
Ahh, you will not read this will you? What a shame. 
Billy
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 01 2005 : 12:17:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
I don't have all these feelings of rancor, anger, and disgust that Wiggs mentioned. I don't think Benteen was a coward, he certainly proved otherwise. I think he hated and resented Custer and took every opportunity short of outright insubordination to show it.I don't condemn him for stopping to water his horses, stopping to help Reno, or for not crossing the river. I think he understood what he was to do on his scout and lied about it afterward. I'm sure that watering the pack train was a mess, but it took Ben teen as long as the packtrain if Gray is right. His batallion did gallop at the very end once they heard firing. Before this he maintained a pack mule pace. I have never heard that troopers went without sleep for three nights. I'm sure they were hot, tired, and thirsty, but my most accounts were in good spirits. Both Reno's and Custer's troops were described as cheering at different times.
Prolar, your post substantiates a fair minded analysis of the specific items you addressed. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 01 2005 : 12:30:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Joe: Nice analysis of some of the circumstances surrounding the debacle.
The hypothesis Cooke forgot to put ammunition on the note is easy to see it would be possible to do.
Regarding the matter of speed. Custer had kept everyone up for three nights straight. Everyone was dog tired including the horses. Had they been pushed to a gallop many more would have given out.
Given the huge number of Indians Benteen saw across the river his decision to turn toward the bluffs was the only prudent one an Officer could make under the circumstances.
Thanks Paul, your comments are encouraging. Guilty of redundancy, the question I proposed regarding Benteen's actions were never intended to single him out as responsible for the outcome of the battle. No single individual should be forced to wear an albatross of total culpability for this fiasco; including Custer. Inappropriate decisions were concluded,and acted upon, by various members of the military, from the top of the hierarchy to the bottom. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 01 2005 : 4:06:42 PM
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| Billy, I've just down loaded Godfrey's narrative. I was aware of it but, never had a chance to see it in it's entirety. Thanks a lot! |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - May 01 2005 : 11:21:48 PM
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| Warlord,The reason for using cavalry is obvious. They could move fast enough to have some chance of catching mounted Indians. How do you pursue a mobile Indian village across streams,canyons, and rough country with wagons and artillery? I can see that infantry could dig in and have some advantage if attacked. But why would Indians attack a force they could easily elude? Do you know of any Indian fight where Gatling guns played a part? I'm not saying it never happened, just that I don't know of it. |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
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Benteen's order
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