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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 08 2004 : 10:17:02 AM
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| Larsen: The above was my reply to you. Somehow I became annonymous |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 10:18:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster5771
Benteen didn't know that Custer and Benteen had seperated. If Benteen was to join Reno it would be well for him to at least know that Reno was across the river. That does not apply to Custer, first because he didn't cross the river, and second because the two messengers knew where Custer was or least where they left him.
So you think Custer was just going to wait on the east bank for Benteen to link up with him before starting his attack? Even while Reno was being shot to bits in the timber? Like I said, your claim that the lack of mention of "crossing the river" means that Reno was not a choice for Benteen doesn't make sense to me. If that was Custer's plan, to hold off until Benteen linked up who knows when, then he deserved to lose.
R. Larsen
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 10:21:37 AM
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Because he thought he would need ammunition and reinforcements to hold off an Indian attempt to recapture the village?
The Indians weren't going to give up their village without struggle, not with all the food and equipment they would have had stored there. However they might stage a retreat, and then try counter attacking after they had re-marshalled their forces. Didn't this happen elsewhere - Slim Buttes for instance? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 10:40:07 AM
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This all comes down to assembling all we know about Custer and saying, with a straight face, that this dynamo actually thought/said: "Having revealed ourselves, let's pull back a mile to the east and wait for help on ground that can politely be called an atrocious defensive position. Further, I state for history this is a better decision that riding back to unit the command. Stopped cavalry with horse holders under fire: that's the ticket."
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 11:09:02 AM
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Dark Cloud: You are right of course about Benteen knowing of the seperation. I'm ashamed,I should have stayed annonymous.
Maybe Custer thought that a limited supply of personal ammo was all he needed, since he intended to hit what he shot at. There's that Custer crush again. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 11:10:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
This all comes down to assembling all we know about Custer and saying, with a straight face, that this dynamo actually thought/said: "Having revealed ourselves, let's pull back a mile to the east and wait for help on ground that can politely be called an atrocious defensive position. Further, I state for history this is a better decision that riding back to unit the command. Stopped cavalry with horse holders under fire: that's the ticket."
My guess is that by the time he got to Medicine Tail he was aware that Reno had been repulsed, and unless he was loony, I suspect at that point he gave up all idea of victory. Name one time an entire wing of an attack on a village was broken off and the troops still came out with a meaningful victory. Basically, as I think Godfrey (?)once said, you had one shot at beating the Indians and that was catching them by surprise and burning down their village and catching their horse herd before they could react and hit you back. Even if Reno was somehow able to reorganize and get back in attack shape, that still would have given the tribes plenty of time to pack up and leave, and with wounded on their hands, the soldiers weren't in any condition to pursue.
So when Custer saw that happen, I think he probably gave up any idea of capturing the village. He chose to pull back. He could have gone south and tried to rejoin the rest of the regiment, but my hunch is that having passed over all that ground between Reno Hill and Medicine Tail, none of it really adequate for defense, he dreaded being caught in that area, especially considering that there were now Indians between him and Reno, and the likelihood that they might reach him before he reached Reno probably seemed high. So, I think he wrote off Reno at this point, counting that with Benteen on his way he could succor him.
I don't think the move north has any logic whatever unless Custer had defense on his mind, and distrusted the ground he had just passed over from Reno Hill. He then was advancing north on the hope, or gamble, that better ground might be available in that direction. Really risky no matter how you look at it, and a bad move in hindsight --- it may have even seemed a real bad move then --- but that's my best stab on what was going through Custer's head. I don't have much sympathy for the new orthodoxy that Custer went up to Battle Ridge while "on the offensive". It's a retreat. You're going away from the Indians. Nobody ever gave a beating to the Indians by fighting them soldier to warrior on open ground. The only time an encounter with the Indians ever accomplished something was if you messed up their villages. By going up to Battle Ridge, Custer had forfeited that chance, though in reality it had already been taken from him as soon as the Indians sent Reno back across the river.
R. Larsen |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 11:12:52 AM
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And all of this happening after he actually suprised the Village. Talk about squandering an advantage----
Oh what a little coordination might have accomplished.
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Edited by - Brent on December 08 2004 11:18:04 AM |
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Anonymous Poster5767
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 11:33:25 AM
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| Larsen: Yes I think he intended to wait for Benteen and apparently he did. Reno was not being shot to pieces in the timber, he had very few casualties before his "charge". To be effective against an overwhelming force, Custer needed all the reenforcement available. He had no way of knowing that Benteen would fail to show. What would you have him do with his 200 men? I believe that Reno stated that he expected no help from Benteen and Benteen had no reason to expect to support Reno. Custer did expect him and sent for him. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 11:43:28 AM
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| I logged on and used my password before writing my message> Where did I go wrong? |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 11:50:07 AM
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Prolar, you might want to go to, if you use Internet Explorer, TOOLS, INTERNET OPTIONS, GENERAL and select Delete Files and Delete Cookies. That will clear out your cache and when you login again, that cookie will be retained.
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 2:39:46 PM
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It's true that Reno had few casualties at the time of his retreat, but at his rate of fire and the numbers about him, it's his job not to get surrounded and wiped out with no ammo, as well as a personal benefit. Why is his proactive move to Reno Hill, however badly done, worse than Custer's reactive one to Battle Ridge? Or, worse, Custer's proactive move there.
Again, what I'm trying to do is have Custer's moves judged by the same values Reno's and Benteen's are, and it remains my contention Custer wasn't functioning well if those choices were his. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 2:53:16 PM
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| Thanks Billy, I believe I have it now. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 2:59:56 PM
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| Whoa DC, I was merely replying to Larsen's contention that Reno's command was being shot to pieces while Custer waited. The wisdom of his glorious charge is a subject for anoyher time. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 5:16:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster5767
Larsen: Yes I think he intended to wait for Benteen and apparently he did. Reno was not being shot to pieces in the timber, he had very few casualties before his "charge". To be effective against an overwhelming force, Custer needed all the reenforcement available. He had no way of knowing that Benteen would fail to show. What would you have him do with his 200 men? I believe that Reno stated that he expected no help from Benteen and Benteen had no reason to expect to support Reno. Custer did expect him and sent for him.
I don't believe that AT ALL. Why on earth would Custer hold back? And what evidence do you have that he did? Forget Custer. For Reno to be effective against an overwhelming force, what exactly do you think he'd need?
As for who expected help from who, I don't know where Reno said he didn't expect help from Benteen, but I do know that he said he expected help from Custer ---- which never came, at least not in time. You have no real evidence that Custer expected Benteen to join him and not anybody else, and the scenario you described (three companies fighting the whole village, while five companies wait patiently on the other side of the river for three more to join them before daintily making a crossing and deigning to fight the Indians) makes no tactical sense whatever. You're making the argument that Custer wanted to fight the Indians in detail.
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 08 2004 5:24:00 PM |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 6:41:57 PM
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Its taking Gac 1.25 min since leaving Reno,to get to medicine Coulee,he has to get a move on,he heads down Mc and comes accross sporadic fire,he 's not sure the number of Indians and maybe thinks its trap,gives the charge,halfway accross he,s shot.as witnessed by 3 crow scouts,they decide to scarper knowing all is lost.
At the same time hundreds of Indians are pouring down from the Reno fight.Boyer steadies him on his horse @ Captain yates[f] takes over with Lt Smith[e] they head n/e.
The remaining troop head for Calhoun Hill,and from there after a resistance its panic all the way towards CH,then they join up with Yates on last stand hill totally surrounded,some escape to the south west as the last shots are being fired on LSH,and the they two gunned down.
One of my scenario's is that Custer would not have left Calhoun to die for him to make escape,not GAC style.
Just a thought guys,FIRE AWAY ! |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 7:03:37 PM
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But.....that's MY theory. Not original, of course. Don't recall Crows saying he was shot, but others said someone who could have been him was shot at MTC and the column pulled up short.
Either way, I think he was wounded (and conscious) because the ride north and east by the first two companies makes bad sense and unCuster and seems like a thoughtless reaction rather than tactic. The sort of thing you'd do to allow your brother/uncle medical help away from the village. The back three provide covering fire against those Indians following, mandating the three move north as well, unsure what is happening. And who'd take over from a merely wounded Custer? Not planned, just how it happens. I think.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 8:59:20 PM
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| Dark Cloud: But there is all ways those pesky brass casings from his Remington rifle beneath his body. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 9:44:29 PM
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| Well, even if true I only think he was wounded, possibly capable of firing some rounds. I doubt the posture of his found body, which too closely resembles that of the classic pieta painting, is actually true. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 02:07:29 AM
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Sorry DC didn't know that was your theory[new member]
"No Indian,crow,Sioux or Cheyenne,could say whether he died at once or later,after his men carried him up the ridge from the river.The wound in any case was mortal.
The three crow scouts on the bluff did not wait to see more with GAC down,the fight was already over.Jumping on there ponies,White-man-Runs-Him and Goes ahead joined Hairy Moccasin,now well out in front in a pell mell-dash for safety back the way they come"
P128 Custer's Fall-David Humphreys Miller.
Prolar just a thought,maybe someone else used his rifle and ammo especially if ammo was short ? |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 05:01:42 AM
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I find it hard to accept that Custer was the one who was shot at the ford. Going back to the Reno engagement, a shot rang out and the commanding officer was within inches of having his own head blown off while the command was intact, in effect causing the retreat which turned into a rout. Are we to believe another Dead-Eye Dick caused the exact same set of circumstances at MTC ford, only this time hitting the commanding officer rather than the man next to him? For those who believe it was not a rout, then at least a forced change in plan.
Not saying its impossible, but its too coincidental for me. |
Edited by - Smcf on December 09 2004 05:06:50 AM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 06:16:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hunkpapa7
The three crow scouts on the bluff did not wait to see more with GAC down,the fight was already over.Jumping on there ponies,White-man-Runs-Him and Goes ahead joined Hairy Moccasin,now well out in front in a pell mell-dash for safety back the way they come"
P128 Custer's Fall-David Humphreys Miller.
Prolar just a thought,maybe someone else used his rifle and ammo especially if ammo was short ?
Miller is just making it up. If a single one of these Crow scouts ever left such an account describing this, feel free to show it.
R. Larsen
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 07:05:06 AM
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Larsen,no way of showing Crows evidence,but they would have been the only NA who knew who GAC was,but as you say its a story he's relaying.
As I say just a thought.
It is possible GAC could have been wounded,but doubtful if killed.
Was GAC the only one wearing buckskin ? and from a distance mistaken Identity ? |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 08:11:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hunkpapa7
Larsen,no way of showing Crows evidence,but they would have been the only NA who knew who GAC was,but as you say its a story he's relaying.
I don't think those three Crows ever claimed to have even seen a shot fired while they rode with Custer's battalion. I think the funniest part of all is that little detail Miller includes of Hairy Moccasin "well out in front" of the others during their "pell mell dash to safety". I'm glad you know it, David Humphreys, because you're the only man in history!
quote:
As I say just a thought.
It is possible GAC could have been wounded,but doubtful if killed.
Was GAC the only one wearing buckskin ? and from a distance mistaken Identity ?
No, Custer was not the only one wearing buckskin, and there's no issue of mistaken identity since no Indian I know of who was not clothed in David Humphreys Miller's pen ever claimed to have seen Custer, or anybody similar, shot in the river. I don't think Miller's book was ever much taken seriously, and Michno has done an effective (and easily acquired) job of raking it over the coals in "Lakota Noon." I suggest you read what Michno has on it before making much use of it as a source. Even if Miller was on the up & up (something not suggested by the way he handled the Crows) he was writing 70 plus years after the battle from alleged sources who must have all been senile by then, and whose accounts could not have much worth or accuracy.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 10:14:16 AM
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Hunkpapa7, was spoofing you. "My" theory is very old and worn.
I don't put much credence in the Indian stories, not because they're Indian but because they go through "translators" and years and everything else and always remarkable how they end up saying what the white interpretor wanted to hear in great detail, often using white man's nomenclature. Never do you find "Surprisingly, Eagle Eye said 'Gimme a break! It was forty years ago on some river I haven't seen since that looks a lot like every other river round here. We were with other tribes that I didn't know, I was exhausted from the dance all night and terrified. I have not clue one what I wore. I only remember being scared and hoping I didn't embarrass myself or anyone.'" I'd believe what that hypothetical soul said if he did recall something, but I've never run across him.
I don't necessarily think Custer was hit leading the charge across, but I do think, since some (Curley?) have described him as taking shots with his rifle at the Indians, that he could easily have attracted some counterfire himself in and around MTC. Mostly, I base this on the fact that heading north and east away from both target and support is not Custer in history or by inclination. A wounded Custer is the worst for his men, because he might still be giving orders, he has family (two brothers, a nephew, brother in law, close nepotistic friends) to protect him, and it's quite possible Keogh had no clue he was in charge at any point, and his men just parallelled Custer's north to provide covering fire till they met. Zero proof. Just a simple theory that covers what happened. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Benteen's order
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