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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 03 2004 : 09:18:45 AM
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First, did Gibson hear all the communication between Custer and Benteen? If he did, that they were to go till they hit the LBH and Gibson could get a gander, how do you meld that with the next two couriers? If Benteen had been told to go just to check the LBH valley southward, why did he have to be told "and the next one...." and the next. Just keep going till he had a view. In any case, this doesn't lend himself to Custer giving Benteen discretion. It's the very definition of a short leash to contradictory purpose. Which is to say, it doesn't suggest cohesive plan or good command, bluntly. Micromanagement to cover up lack of a macroconcept.
There is further confusion about what circumstances were to instigate Benteen sending a courier back. He says if he found Indians, he was to report (and attack himself), and only then. Gray finds this ridiculous, but he doesn't find the two couriers ridiculous. There is a real dissonance here. Further, it's Gibson saying 'go into the LBH valley,' and that could have been his assumption. Go into the valley and do what? And how do you meld that with the "rejoin the command" issuance if the command(er) was not only not in the valley but on the other side of the river on high ground some significant miles away? Unless he meant rejoin Reno.......
I don't think it's constructive to vector in on Benteen's response till you formulate exactly what the oral orders were he was to respond to. Custer's actions do not indicate he had a clear idea what the hell Benteen was to do at this point, just as later the note, failing to meet any standard of instruction, indicate he had no idea what he himself was doing.
I repeat. If Buford at Gettysburg had sent Reynolds a message saying "Reynolds! Come on! Big rebel Army! Bring artillery! Be Quick! Bring artiligupg', Buford would have been hung. Different, and yet....... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - December 03 2004 : 6:44:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Benteens's total incomprehension of five simple words, "Benteen Come on. Big Village." What had been searched so diligently for by the troopers had been found, the prize was now within the grasp of the 7th. Calvary.
First, they weren't searching for the village. The village had been sighted from the Crows Nest. Benteen's was just a hastily-organized side-trip (Custer twice had to fine-tune it with afterthoughts) to see if they were any other Indians in the area. Most likely Custer had in mind fleers from the main village, since at the time he chose to advance against it he assumed he had been discovered, and the purpose in attacking at mid-day was to try to catch them all before they got away.
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Custer intended Benteen's excursion to be brief and was nonplused by his tardiness.
How do you know Custer thought Benteen was tardy? And if he was, how do you know he was nonplussed?
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Remember that the initial message sent to the pack-train by Kanipe was not addressed to Benteen.
Why would it? The pack train and escort were led by McDougall.
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The second message (note) was. Why? Custer assumed that Benteen was late because he had joined the pack train.
Why would he assume this? Especially when such an assumption would have been inaccurate.
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This is a logical assumption when one realizes the overwhelming importance of protecting the ammunition.
This doesn't make sense at all. The pack train was already guarded by McDougall's company. There were no Indians between it and the village to threaten it --- Custer had just seen that for himself. Why would anyone think (and Custer assume) the train would need a further escort of three companies, when there were no Indians near it in sight? Benteen certainly didn't.
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Thus the last demand "bring packs (ammunition)and the subsequent P.S., "bring packs." (again a referrence to the ammunition)
Neither is a reference to the ammunition. Both are a reference to the packs --- without distinction.
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My final point is that Benteen did not comply with the order because he believed it to be impossible to do so.
The demoralization of Reno's Troops and the vast number of warriors were overwhelming factors that he could not ignore. Under the giving circumstances, Benteen's actions were understandable. You and I may have reacted differently, or maybe not. Regardless of the moral implications, the rightness or wrongness of doing so, the last order was not obeyed.
I'm still confused about what you think, precisely, the note was instructing Benteen to do. Go to the village and attack? Search for Custer to receive further orders? Bring ammo but not other packs (something not mentioned in the note)? And if bring ammo, how? Drag the mules along, or should each soldier have just taken in hand what he could ("come quick")? Etc....... Precisely. You're accusing Benteen of disobeying it, so you owe him that.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 03 2004 6:50:33 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 04 2004 : 8:40:05 PM
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"First, they weren't searching for the village, it had been sighted from the Crow's Nest."
Larsen, your self admitted confusion about "what I'm trying to say" may be the result of your supercilious desire to be forever right and, the rest of the world eternally wrong.
A cursory review of the events that occurred at the Crow's Nest will reveal that your above listed conclusion is patently incorrect. It is so because you either omitted important information that you were unaware of, or you left out information that you were aware of. Either way your conclusion is based upon faulty data.
Before dawn on the morning of the 25th., the Indian scouts alleged that from the Crow's Nest they observed smoke from many camp fires some distance away. Intervening bluffs cut off a full view of the village, but the flats were white with lodges.
The scouts immediately aroused the sleeping Lt. Varnum and urged him to look in the direction they pointed towards. Varnum could see no signs of a village. Understandably frustrated, the scouts continued to urge the lieutenant to try again by saying, "Look for worms crawling in the grass." Of course they were referring to the immense herd of Indian ponies. Again, Lt. Varnum saw nothing of importance.
Varnum then dispatched a message to Custer reporting what the Indian scouts claimed and nothing more. Needlessly to say, Custer responded immediately. He too peered into the direction indicated but, could not ascertain the location of the village.
"Custer listened to Bouyer while he gazed long and hard at the valley. He then said: I've got about as good eyes as anybody and I can't see a village, Indians, or anything else."
Ergo Larsen, the "sight" of the village, as you say, did not ascertain sufficient information to resolve the exact location of the camp. In combat situations, the more precise the intelligence, the better the odds of victory. Thus, the General attempted to gather that vital intelligence by utilizing a Surveillance-in-Force; iIndividual commands working in concert, capable of sustained, intelligence gathering while retaining the capability of each unit to defend itself.
Obviously, Custer had a vague notion of the location of the village. Precise information, however, was imperative to hope for victory. Thus the search continued.
Regarding your inquiry: "How do you know that Custer was nonplused?" we may safely say that a commander's lost of a significant portion of his battle force would arouse a litany of emotions ranging from being morose to being all a twitter with glee. I chose to compromise.
Tom Custer's message, via Sgt. Kanipe, was not addressed to Benteen as the General believed that he was still performing his "scout." Sufficient time had elapsed by the time of the Martini message for Custer to assume that Benteen's failure to quickly report his findings(a fast courier could have done wonders)was a result of his joining the slow moving pack train.
As for your unrealistic, unwavering, and relentless demand that I "explain" exactly what Benteen should have done I reply: I don't have the foggiest Idea! I never claimed to own a crystal ball. I have merely presupposed an acdemic conjecture that has enabled you the opportunity to nit-pick, in the words of the stalwart Benteen, Ad Infinitum!
Last but not least, Custer did not write the note: Cooke did. Why do you think he repeated the request for "packs" in his post script. Is it possible that in his understandable excitement, he omitted the critical word "ammunition", attempted to correct his error but, failed to do so again? |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 04 2004 8:47:12 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 05 2004 : 09:40:12 AM
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Wiggs just to intrude.
Is it possible that in his understandable excitement, he omitted the critical word "ammunition",
It is possible that he never intended to write "ammunition".
To have done so would have divided the pack train into 3.The ammo,the remainder ,and the escort.Just calling for the packs ment he not only got the reserve ammo but another 100 troops as well.
I think we have ignored the escort in our discussions.That unit was ammo and reinforcements which could have been directed to support any of the 3 battalions. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 05 2004 : 12:03:27 PM
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| Actually no, we've discussed the two companies plus of men that were with the train (a company in whole plus those assigned from each company to their own packs). If the order was for "ammo" it's safe to think he'd say and write "ammo". But so near the village, and such a huge village, you'd want everything together under protection: food, grain, medicine and Custer's horse. Unite the command. Kanipe was told ammo, but Martin was told packs, meaning all of it. Custer wasn't under fire when he sent these messages, allegedly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 05 2004 : 12:33:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Ergo Larsen, the "sight" of the village, as you say, did not ascertain sufficient information to resolve the exact location of the camp. In combat situations, the more precise the intelligence, the better the odds of victory. Thus, the General attempted to gather that vital intelligence by utilizing a Surveillance-in-Force; iIndividual commands working in concert, capable of sustained, intelligence gathering while retaining the capability of each unit to defend itself.
I don't claim they knew exact details about the camp; what fords there were and where were they, what kind of terrain was at hand, how many lodges there were and for how wide an area some of them may have been scattered over. You wouldn't learn that stuff until you got there. But they knew where they had to go, the trail was fresh, and though Custer nor Varnum with his bleary eyes could make it out, the other scouts (including Reynolds and Bouyer) had, and Custer acted on what they reported. Varnum's party had sighted from the Crows Nest several Sioux Indians riding around in the area, and Curtiss encountered more, so the decision wasn't that hard. I don't agree with your characterization of Custer's advance as a "search" for the village. Its purpose was just to attack, and Custer would finesse the details once he got there.
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Regarding your inquiry: "How do you know that Custer was nonplused?" we may safely say that a commander's lost of a significant portion of his battle force would arouse a litany of emotions ranging from being morose to being all a twitter with glee. I chose to compromise.
In other words, you don't know and made something up.
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Tom Custer's message, via Sgt. Kanipe, was not addressed to Benteen as the General believed that he was still performing his "scout."
How do you know what the general believed? And since the message was an instruction to the pack train, why would the message be directed to anybody but the guy in charge of the train?
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Sufficient time had elapsed by the time of the Martini message for Custer to assume that Benteen's failure to quickly report his findings(a fast courier could have done wonders)was a result of his joining the slow moving pack train.
Why would Custer assume that? If Custer really thought Benteen was tardy, wouldn't it have been more reasonable to assume that he had just encountered more difficult terrain than expected, instead of concluding (out of thin air) that Benteen had joined the packs without orders and for no reason?
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As for your unrealistic, unwavering, and relentless demand that I "explain" exactly what Benteen should have done I reply: I don't have the foggiest Idea! I never claimed to own a crystal ball. I have merely presupposed an acdemic conjecture that has enabled you the opportunity to nit-pick, in the words of the stalwart Benteen, Ad Infinitum!
I just asked you what Benteen was being precisely ordered to do. Since you presume to claim that he disobeyed orders by not doing whatever that was, you apparently know. I'm in the dark, so I asked for help.
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Last but not least, Custer did not write the note: Cooke did. Why do you think he repeated the request for "packs" in his post script. Is it possible that in his understandable excitement, he omitted the critical word "ammunition", attempted to correct his error but, failed to do so again?
Makes no sense. Your argument is that realizing that he hadn't written ammo the first time, Cooke was writing the postscript with the intention to specifically indicate ammo --- yet did not. That's ridiculous, unless you believe that Cooke was mentally retarded, and is neither here nor there so far as it applies to Benteen.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 4:29:35 PM
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I agree Warlord, the ciucumstances under which the note was created were twofold:
1.) the need for the expedited arival of additional ammunition and troops;
2.) the continued protection of the pack train from hostile forces.
For the first time since the mission began, General Custer truly understood the magnitude of his undertaking. Unconvinced by previous scouting reports, or an unwillingness to put complete faith in them, he now knew for a certainty that he was facing the greatest conglomeration of Indians tribes in the history of Indian warfare. An observation he personally made, possibly, from Sharpshooter's Ridge.
By directing Benteen to "Come Quick", Custer gains (now critically needed)extra ammunition and troops at once while, simultaneously, ensuring that the remainder of the pack train would still be protected by the originally, assigned guards. Remember, the Benteen conclave were never assigned to the packtrain by Custer thus, his departure would not have reduced the status of safety accorded it by the General. Only in hindsight, after the tragic extermination of Custer's battalion, did the conviction arise that Benteen had no choice but to stay with Reno.
Any speculation as to what may have happened to Benteen had Custer defeated the warriors with his five troops?
Of course,none of us will never know what really happened.
To Larsen: The culmination of research, common-sense, desire, love for the subject matter, and a commitment to truth gives each and everyone of us a right to speculate about what "could" have happened. This would include you also as evident by your posts. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 06 2004 4:34:28 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 5:16:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
he now knew for a certainty that he was facing the greatest conglomeration of Indians tribes in the history of Indian warfare.
Unknowable.
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By directing Benteen to "Come Quick", Custer gains (now critically needed)extra ammunition and troops at once while, simultaneously, ensuring that the remainder of the pack train would still be protected by the originally, assigned guards.
Everything except Benteen coming "quick" --- not going to happen if he's supposed to escort the pack train (or portion of it) against no known threat. Custer had just passed over the same ground, and knew there to be nothing at hand that would put the train at risk, at least until it got to within sniffing range of the village.
Why do you assume that all this stuff was supposed to go to Custer? The packs and ammo belong to the regiment. Why should it all go to Custer, and not to Reno? And why should Benteen's three companies and McDougall's escort go to him too? Doesn't Reno --- the only one actually in action --- need support (and ammo) a little more?
And why do you assume that Benteen was supposed to detach the ammo and leave "the remainder"? He was not ordered to split the packs up.
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Remember, the Benteen conclave were never assigned to the packtrain by Custer thus, his departure would not have reduced the status of safety accorded it by the General.
I don't understand what you're saying. What is the "status of safety"? And how does one accord it?
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Only in hindsight, after the tragic extermination of Custer's battalion, did the conviction arise that Benteen had no choice but to stay with Reno.
But Benteen did decide to stay with Reno. Before he had time for hindsight. He felt he had to, seeing as how Reno's command was a wreck, and all. How do you figure that this conviction comes from after-the-fact thinking?
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To Larsen: The culmination of research, common-sense, desire, love for the subject matter, and a commitment to truth gives each and everyone of us a right to speculate about what "could" have happened. This would include you also as evident by your posts.
I agree, but it needs to be presented as speculation, not anything else. It's also fair to discuss how reasonable each bit of speculation is.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 07:40:48 AM
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*grumble* I still believe Custer or Cooke forgot that Benteen was not in charge of the pack train that day due to McDougal's company being prepared to move last...but, just opinion.
Perhaps relevant to the "come quick, bring paks" discussion is how were the mules loaded. By that, was boxes of ammo kept segregated or mixed in with boxes of hardtack, coffee and bacon? If not segregated it seems like would have taken some time to separate ammo from beans, then reload the mules.
Just a thought...
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 11:09:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
*grumble* I still believe Custer or Cooke forgot that Benteen was not in charge of the pack train that day due to McDougal's company being prepared to move last...but, just opinion.
Might well be. The instruction to Benteen about the packs doesn't make much sense based on what we currently know, and this explains it about as well as anything else we've got.
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Perhaps relevant to the "come quick, bring paks" discussion is how were the mules loaded. By that, was boxes of ammo kept segregated or mixed in with boxes of hardtack, coffee and bacon? If not segregated it seems like would have taken some time to separate ammo from beans, then reload the mules.
I'm not sure. I don't think it would have been wise to mix things up like that, just because of what you say --- it would have taken time to sort through things. In Mathey's COI testimony they talk about "ammunition pack mules" (pg. 514), each of which apparently had two boxes and 2,000 rounds total, which implies (though doesn't directly say) that the packs were segregated, and that's all I could find while briefly checking before I have to sign off.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 2:25:20 PM
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This is a setup, Markland, isn't it? You couldn't think that really.
If both Custer and Cooke "forgot" that Benteen wasn't in charge of the train, having sent him and three companies south away from the train and all else, then all mystery about the day and Custer's fate can be summed up here. Simply put, Custer and Cooke must have had, in aggregate, the command ability of me. On a bad day. Again: the competence of "Headquarters" is questioned.
There is periodic reference to ammunition mules, so apparently there were some at least devoted to this task. However, generic ammo mules wouldn't brink Custer ammo for his guns, neither of which would be of the same caliber, which would be with his stuff, wouldn't it? Which is another lesser reason I think the second order - the one we know Custer sent - was for 'packs' not the oral 'ammo packs' of Kanipe.
It's just a crappy message from any point of view, totally at odds with how orders were to be. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 7:37:20 PM
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| Warlord, I couln't have said it better (both threads) so I won't try! |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 8:18:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Well,the message's will not stand out in history for their clarity. Neverthless there is not much doubt pragmatically, the Custer command had to be greatly concerned about their ammo supply primarily due to discovering the great number of indians they were facing. Food can wait a week. Water can wait a day or two. Ammunition like air, to survive must be instantly available.
To think that the bullets were mixed in with the beans would be naive indeed. Such a situation would be unlikely to ever happen unless some emergency or extenuating circumstance would force it upon the command.
Billy was just trying to speculate on why the message asked for "packs," not ammo. If Custer's concern for ammo was that great he could have asked for it separately. He did not.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 8:25:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
And how could Custer or Cooke forget that Benteen was not in command of the pack train when Custer was sending written communications to Benteen earlier in the day knowing he was making a large sortie to the left. That does not make sense. Opinion's should contain some logical possible support, such as maybe Custer wanted Benteen to take command of the pack train. However, that would not make any sense if the Custer Command wished Benteen to rush to support them.
The Cooke note doesn't really make sense at all. Like I've said before, it's like messages to two different people somehow got slurred together in the transcription. Something's missing anyway; no reconstruction of what Custer "really intended" fails to add something to what is actually in the note. Sending a message about the pack train to Benteen is strange in the first place --- and was thought so from the start. Benteen couldn't understand it, and was not alone.
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We can extrapolate from the likely concern about ammunition, references to ammunition mules being brought up and Kanipe's reference to these messages being about ammunition, I don't think it's a huge jump to realize the real emphasis here is a concern for ammunition and troops.
I doubt Kanipe remembered accurately what his orders were. As Dark Cloud seems to have been the first to realize, if Kanipe's orders were to grab the ammo packs and race them cross-country, McDougall did not do this and no one seems to have ever complained. To my knowledge, the earliest reference to Kanipe's ride comes from Benteen, in a report a few days after the battle, and Benteen says simply that Kanipe's message was to move the train along with "as great rapidity as was possible" (I quote from memory, but I think accurately). Nobody bothered to interview Kanipe until after 30 years had passed, and the potential for misremembering things under such conditions was high (the same, by the way, goes for all the Camp interview material).
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How much more difficult could it have been to write, "Captain Benteen immediatly move forward at all possible speed to support my battalion. Have pack train move at all possible speed to support us with ammunition mules forward!"
Of course, monday morning quarterbacking is a lot easier than being there and actually doing it.
That would have been a very clear message. But look at the stuff you have to add to Cooke's message in order to make it coherent. Benteen is supposed to move forward to my battalion, not Reno's, or to the village. Have pack train move at all possible speed even as Benteen moves separately with all possible speed too; evidently, Benteen is not supposed to literally "bring packs". Move ammunition mules forward --- also something not actually in Cooke's note.
It's a terrible communication.
R. Larsen |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 9:14:02 PM
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Camp interviewed Sgt Hanley in 1910. He was with the pack train and remembered the ammo being 0n a different type of pack saddle, two boxes per mule and 1000 cartridges to a box.
I agree the message wasn't clear, but I can't see how a message from your commanding officer to come on, be quick means to come anywhere except to him. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 10:35:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
I agree the message wasn't clear, but I can't see how a message from your commanding officer to come on, be quick means to come anywhere except to him.
Because it's not the most natural way to read it. The message is vague, but I think it's most easily read as an instruction to get moving as quick as you can to the village. "Come on. Big village. Be quick". The idea that Benteen was supposed to bypass Reno's struggle in the timber and amble along the bluffs in search of Custer seems odd to me; Custer hadn't even been engaged yet, had lost no ammo, while Reno had already been fighting for a while.
R. Larsen
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 10:54:21 PM
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| I can see your point, but don't agree. If Reno had still been in the timber, Benteen being on the bluff above the village would have been no help to him whatever. If he was to join Reno surely there would have been some mention of crossing the river. I am not saying that his joining Reno was wrong, just that it wasn't the plan. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 06:20:48 AM
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"The plan"--there's the rub. The master plan wasn't clear to anyone, it seems. It isn't clear to any of us in these times, so no wonder there was confusion at the time.
I still wonder what Custer had intended for Benteen IF Reno's charge had actually worked and if Benteen had returned to "rejoin the Command" double-quick??
Of possible interest, I was discussing this Benteen matter with my wife the other day (she has no real interest, of course, but politely listens as I tell her my theories). After I was finished explaing the splitting of the command, Benteen's scout, the note/order,etc she said: "So-- he (Custer) really didn't know exactly where all the Indians were, how many there were, or what the land (terrain) was really like??? Sounds he tried to get fancy when the circumstances suggested something more simple".
Not a bad analysis, come to think of it----. |
Edited by - Brent on December 08 2004 06:23:47 AM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 06:58:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
I can see your point, but don't agree. If Reno had still been in the timber, Benteen being on the bluff above the village would have been no help to him whatever. If he was to join Reno surely there would have been some mention of crossing the river. I am not saying that his joining Reno was wrong, just that it wasn't the plan.
Your objection about no mention of "crossing the river" doesn't make sense to me, since Custer himself would have surely crossed the river well before Benteen ever came along (assuming Reno had held), if your idea is that Benteen was supposed to join him. And really, if the intention was for Benteen to join Custer, then can't it just as easily be said that there should have been mention of following Custer's trail, not Reno's, once they diverged, or that there should have been mention of keeping to the bluffs for several miles?
As Brent pointed out, we really don't know what "the plan" was. Like all of us, I have my own ideas as to what's most likely, but Cooke's note being so vaguely written reduces all readings to speculation and guesswork.
R. Larsen
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 07:19:47 AM
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Sorry about the delay in responding, had to nursemaid the wife through a crisis; the new kitchen sink's enamel lining had cracked on a corner and was still installed. And also another more important crisis, my bloody coffeemaker died on me!
OK, WL caught me: "Opinion's should contain some logical possible support,...". Actually, I should have used the word "speculation" rather than "opinion"
I need to put all this in an orderly form with sources, etc. but looking at the whole picture of what happened at LBH on June 25, 1876, there is something missing. There is some, for lack of a better word, pattern, known to the participants that we don't know. The fact that Benteen was sent the note to bring packs when he should have been, and was, past the pack train after finishing his "valley hunting" has me curious.
As far as packs being mixed up or not, logically I would figure that they would be separate because of weight and the need to be able to get to the ammunition quickly. However, something kept reminding me of the troopers' spare ammunition supplies stampeded with their horses and caused me to wonder. Anyway, I noticed a pile of books which had not been put up from the foundation work and in the pile was Camp's Custer In '76. Fortuitously, the very first page I turned to was the Richard Hanley interview of 10/4/1910, page 127. It states:
"Said the ammunition was packed in appareros [aparejos: pack saddles]and not on sawbucks, like the hardtack and other supplies. Each mule carried two boxes of cartridges containing 1000 cartridges to the box."
The above statement regarding the ammunition quantity per mule is corroborated by Hare's interview notes (p. 68), "Hare says had plenty of ammunition. Each troop had a mule packed with (2 boxes) 2000 rounds and headquarters had another, making 13 mules and 26 boxes or 26000 rounds besides what the men carried in belts and saddles, which was 100 rounds each."
Prolar, I just noticed your input from earlier yesterday about Handley's interview. Thanks!
Merry Christmas,
Billy |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 08:36:55 AM
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What I'm curious about is the "Big Village" reference in the note, unless the note meant "come on to the Big Village". They all knew about the village didn't they? with Benteen sent off left to scout Indians upstream from it. An implicit "come to me" would presume joining a static force, which it wasn't. Of course, just speculating, Custer may have intended to wait but events overtook him.
On the other hand, if Custer split his forces into wings and gone on the offensive without Benteen's 3 troops, what was Benteen supposed to do when he got to the field - follow the trail down MTC or continue north?
I'm generally not one for conspiracy theories, but one might be forgiven for allowing it to cross the mind (as it has crossed the minds of some) that Custer acted deliberately in keeping Benteen away from any decisive role in the conflict. Circumstantial as it is, the note's emphasis on the packs could be construed as an effort to slow his progress to the village, overriding the "be quick" pretext. Coupled with the scouting episode, it makes sense if it could be belived that Custer intended to do the job with his immediate command, while evincing a feigned desire to include the whole command in the upcoming victory. |
Edited by - Smcf on December 08 2004 09:32:59 AM |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 09:03:40 AM
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| Or the other possibility was that Custer intended to be in command of the village by the time Benteen arrived. So there was no need to for Custer explicitly state whether Benteen was to join his command or go to the village. |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 09:37:40 AM
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| Yes Dave, but then why send the note at all in that case? |
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Anonymous Poster5771
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 09:52:42 AM
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| Benteen didn't know that Custer and Benteen had seperated. If Benteen was to join Reno it would be well for him to at least know that Reno was across the river. That does not apply to Custer, first because he didn't cross the river, and second because the two messengers knew where Custer was or least where they left him.I'll say again that being on the bluff above the village was not at the village. To "come on" to the village, Benteen would have to follow either Reno's or Custer's trail. With two messages from Custer and no indication of where Reno was, it is no great leap to assume that he was to come to Custer. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2004 : 10:13:51 AM
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Okay: I thought we had to register to participate. I was, among other numbers, Anon.Poster 2331 (I think) at the time we were told to register. I don't care, but I'm still annoyed I didn't think of what Larsen did and continue the same way. It's just the rules were told us and now they're changed without notice, and we have AP 5771 (hello, by the way).
In any case, Benteen did know that Reno and Custer had separated by the two messengers. Everyone from Benteen on down has insisted on calling this note an "order" but really? I think it was no more than an "oh, boy, it's happening over here, everybody hustle this way" encouragement. Custer would want access to the packs, not to be burdened with them, I'd think. And clearly, with the size of the village, he'd need everything there.
The note contrasts in every way with C's micromanagement of Benteen's scout, which I still find weird. Every explanation about for scout I've heard is flummoxed by how Custer actually handled it. A single scout could have obtained all faster. A Recon in Force doesn't make sense: they headed downhill towards the valley and a village or any large numbers moving kick up dust, utterly visible but, if it was a recon, why the two couriers?
I'm assuming my remark about Custer wanting ammo for his own guns, requiring the Headquarter mules, is remarkably stupid since I've used it twice and stepped back for applause and heard nothing, zero. It would explain why bringing ammo mules wasn't all that great for himself. One of the lesser reasons for changing Kanipe's 'ammo' to Martin's 'packs.' This assuming Kanipe recalled correctly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Benteen's order
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