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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 09 2004 : 10:50:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
My guess is that by the time he got to Medicine Tail he was aware that Reno had been repulsed, and unless he was loony, I suspect at that point he gave up all idea of victory.
Sounds like the most logical argument I've heard yet for Custer's moves. I have to admit, the more I read about the battle the more confused I get. What really bugs me is that after promising to support Reno, and with action apparently imminent, Custer seems to go missing, and then seemingly fails to mount a major attack at the MTC.
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I don't think the move north has any logic whatever unless Custer had defense on his mind, and distrusted the ground he had just passed over from Reno Hill. He then was advancing north on the hope, or gamble, that better ground might be available in that direction. Really risky no matter how you look at it, and a bad move in hindsight --- it may have even seemed a real bad move then --- but that's my best stab on what was going through Custer's head.
Hmmm, I can only go by the maps and pictures of the battlefield I've seen on various websites. I realise that pictures can be deceptive, but surely Custer could have seen Battle Ridge and its environs from the point where Varnum saw him on the ridge, and realised that they weren't defensible?
The way I see it, Reno Hill is the highest prominance near the river, and therefore the most easily defensible. Its also on the route back to the rest, over ground which they've presumably just covered. Why seek the dubious shelter of the bluffs north of the MTC which are of much lower relief, and if they were on the run, why not head on a course further east?
When I was looking at El Crab's photos it appeared to me the the LSH would have been clearly visible from a least some portion of the village. If I am correct in saying this, why would you flee along an exposed ridge where your every move would be telegraphed to any watching Indian.
quote:
I don't have much sympathy for the new orthodoxy that Custer went up to Battle Ridge while "on the offensive". It's a retreat. You're going away from the Indians.
Interesting, I had you pegged down as a Scott disciple for some reason. My views are closer to Scott's, although in my opinion Custer wasn't precisely on the offensive. I think going north was a last desperate roll of the dice to salvage something from the debacle. So women, children, pony herds - whatever target of oportunity presented itself. Well its that, or he had been already been so comprehensively outflanked by the Indians, that retreat towards Reno/Benteen or the Pack train was out of the question. |
Edited by - dave on December 09 2004 10:56:03 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 12:58:49 PM
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Dave,
Why is high ground preferable if there's nothing to hide behind? You're visible to the enemy and an easy target. With all the dust around, and the quality of the soldiers, there's no long range shooting advantage. Weir Point is the highest ground in the neighborhood, and that was rejected by everyone as a good place from which to fight. Reno and Benteen both saw the depression atop Reno Hill (right and well under Sharpshooter Hill)as the best spot; they were probably correct, helped by the packs and trenches.
I still don't see why Custer couldn't ride back south to unite the command, even under fire. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 3:20:09 PM
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Larsen: I will not make a practice of doing research to to disprove your demands,so consider this a bonus.
Reno statement at COI pg 147 Grahams Story of the Little Bighorn:"At the time I left the timber I did not see Benteen's column nor had I the remotest reason to expect him to unite with me.
Custer had every reason to expect Benteen to join him because he had ordered him to do so and they were soldiers, not lawyers.
If there was any reason for your convoluted theory that Benteen was coming to Reno or the village, why would he be looking for them on the bluffs?
Uniting with Benteen would have given Custer a large enough force for offensive action and avoided being defeated in detail. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2004 : 11:59:23 PM
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Prolar,
You're correct, they're soldiers not attorneys, and one of those soldiers had previously been convicted of deserting men in the field in Indian country (And surprise, they died.) and going AWOL himself and lying about it, ironic since he was also found guilty of allowing men of his command to be shot by other men of his command at his order for the same thing. See, a lawyer could explain to him that in the civilian world, he'd have hung for comparable crime, because it's called murder. Apparently the military didn't find circumstances to relieve him of those charges and verdict, although in admiration of his past service, his sentences were light.
Those who spend time going over an inquest of Reno with fine tooth combs ought to spend more time reading the trial of Custer. But once the Custer Crush is in place, you want to hear or read no fact that reflects the very real ethical deficiencies of GAC, much less military ones. Everyone gets all upset that the Reno Inquest was a whitewash. The Reno Inquest was a smear campaign compared to the Custer trial, which is the very definition of whitewash. Again: killing, desertion, and lying about it, and what happened to him again? Nothing, all told.
You leave off quotation marks to close Reno's quote, but I assume it ends with "...unite with me."
If so, I have trouble in the following sentence with the pronoun "he", which I guess means Benteen. Benteen wasn't looking for anyone on the bluffs, he heard and rode to the sound of firing. He saw men in front of him on the bluffs as well as climbing the bluffs and people in the valley.
How in the world do you know Benteen's arrival at Custer's location with the train (which, if you believe that note to be a real order, has to be included) would suddenly allow Custer to take offensive action? Once Custer stopped to wait for Benteen (which I have trouble even saying. Custer?) and dismounted, he lost men and horses. Once cavalry stops under fire, it's a dead letter for the most part.
Besides, if you're going to gather men for an attack with cavalry, wouldn't it make sense to do so where cavalry could organize and fight as such, like on the west bank where, coincidently, the enemy village (Remember Alice? This is a song about Alice....)was and could be destroyed? To assemble for an attack from battle ridge strikes me as passing strange. If Custer was going to go on the attack, he ought to have united the command south and force the enemy north, being the plan and all. If he attacks from the north with the majority of his forces, best case scenario is the majority rush past Reno and escape. If Reno's lucky.
Yes, I know. The captive women and children. 'Capturing them would immobilize the entire village as Custer holds them hostage.' Would that work? For example, Custer had virtually all the Cheyenne women and children captive at the Wa****a, yet he was still afraid of being attacked by warriors from villages not composed of the same tribe (just like here), and feinted an attack of his own, apparently at Ben Clark's suggestion. Gathering all the Cheyenne hostages would be unlikely to stop the Hunkpapas in high summer with recent dead from cavalry attack by Reno any more than it stopped the Kiowa in deep winter. At least, apparently Custer didn't think it would.
Look how long it took the train to get to Reno Hill. Even being beaten with belts, Benteen hauling the train could not have arrived at Custer for a while. And they'd have to fight their way in. It's reasonable to assume that mules would have been shot and stampeded as well as horses, and Sioux understood what was on the mules.
And all this is assuming that there were enough soldiers to deal with the enemy anyway. I'm not convinced actual elites could have done the job. And the 7th, as a unit, couldn't hit anything. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 11:53:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dave
Sounds like the most logical argument I've heard yet for Custer's moves. I have to admit, the more I read about the battle the more confused I get. What really bugs me is that after promising to support Reno, and with action apparently imminent, Custer seems to go missing, and then seemingly fails to mount a major attack at the MTC.
The result of working out a plan of attack on the fly. Reno says he expected Custer to support him from behind, with the 7th apparently making a full-out assault on one end of the village. I think it's very possible that what Reno says is accurate and Custer did invision such an attack at some point, though he changed his mind. I don't think Custer expected it would take so long to find a suitable crossing on the village's flank. He didn't know the ground and was attacking blindly. By bad luck the chances he took just went against him.
quote:
Hmmm, I can only go by the maps and pictures of the battlefield I've seen on various websites. I realise that pictures can be deceptive, but surely Custer could have seen Battle Ridge and its environs from the point where Varnum saw him on the ridge, and realised that they weren't defensible?
The way I see it, Reno Hill is the highest prominance near the river, and therefore the most easily defensible. Its also on the route back to the rest, over ground which they've presumably just covered. Why seek the dubious shelter of the bluffs north of the MTC which are of much lower relief, and if they were on the run, why not head on a course further east?
When I was looking at El Crab's photos it appeared to me the the LSH would have been clearly visible from a least some portion of the village. If I am correct in saying this, why would you flee along an exposed ridge where your every move would be telegraphed to any watching Indian.
He should have gone south to Reno Hill --- once an attack crumbles I think a commander's first instinct ought to be to unite the command --- and the only reason I can think of for why he didn't is that he feared getting caught in that terrain between MTC and Reno Hill by the Indians who had chased Reno. The same thing happened to Weir, Benteen, and Reno when they tried to reach Custer, and when they saw the Indians approaching them they looked at the ground around them at Weir and beat a hasty retreat. In that they at least had the advantage of not having to cut through anybody to get there. If Custer did try to backtrack and was intercepted by Indians, he'd have to battle through them to get to the other units, on unfavorable ground to boot, and I think that must have been what dissuaded him from taking that course.
I freely admit I don't know what Custer knew of the land to the north. I'm not sure if a good perspective of it can be made from MTC, though you can see it from Weir Point, and Custer had been there during his advance and should have scouted it out. From what Curley says about the survey though, it seems Custer was most interested in the village, and paid scant attention to the surrounding country. At the time he went north he may have had only a vague idea of what was up there; or, his intention all along may have been to try to make it to Terry, as Reno suspected; or, he just hoped something would present itself---- I cannot say. Going north was the nail in the coffin for him, and it's easier to say why he didn't do something else than why he did that. Things were so half-assed that day (the multiple orders modifying Benteen's scout, the mixed messages to Reno, the wing & a prayer decision to flank the Indians from a ford Custer had no idea where to expect, the muffled coherence of the Cooke note) that it wouldn't surprise me that north only seemed a better option than south due to hasty and sloppy observation, and the need to make a quick decision. I'm trying to explain something I don't really understand, so I welcome better reasoning, if anybody has it.
quote:
Interesting, I had you pegged down as a Scott disciple for some reason. My views are closer to Scott's, although in my opinion Custer wasn't precisely on the offensive. I think going north was a last desperate roll of the dice to salvage something from the debacle. So women, children, pony herds - whatever target of oportunity presented itself. Well its that, or he had been already been so comprehensively outflanked by the Indians, that retreat towards Reno/Benteen or the Pack train was out of the question.
But women and children (or pony herds) aren't going to present themselves on the ridges east of the river. Or teepees for you to burn. Hitting that stuff is the only way you're going to strike a blow at the Indians that might be enough to force them back to the reservation. When Custer backed off and gave up on those things he had already lost. All that remained to be settled was how badly.
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 10 2004 12:31:15 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 12:09:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen: I will not make a practice of doing research to to disprove your demands,so consider this a bonus.
Reno statement at COI pg 147 Grahams Story of the Little Bighorn:"At the time I left the timber I did not see Benteen's column nor had I the remotest reason to expect him to unite with me.
Okay, but I don't know what demand of mine is disproved. He expected Custer to help him, yet your argument is that Custer's plan was to wait for Benteen to join him (with the packs!) before making his attack ......... after he had already ordered Reno to cross the river and attack. I don't believe it whatsoever, and you've given nobody any reason to.
quote:
Custer had every reason to expect Benteen to join him because he had ordered him to do so and they were soldiers, not lawyers.
The note just tells Benteen to come to the vicinity of the village. Any detail people want to add to that is just adding something that is not actually present in the note itself. It may have been in Custer's mind for all I know, but the note Cooke wrote did not really convey that, as is shown by all the conflicting interpretations made of the note since. Your argument is that Benteen knew he wasn't supposed to go to Reno because the note said nothing about crossing the river and he also knew Custer had not and would not cross the river until Benteen joined him ... with the packs. If this is soldier's logic give me a pint too.
quote:
If there was any reason for your convoluted theory that Benteen was coming to Reno or the village, why would he be looking for them on the bluffs?
I don't understand this question.
quote:
Uniting with Benteen would have given Custer a large enough force for offensive action and avoided being defeated in detail.
He was being defeated in detail if it was his "plan" to let Reno take the full brunt of the Indian attack while he patiently cooled his heels at MTC.
R. Larsen
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 1:48:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
I freely admit I don't know what Custer knew of the land to the north.... At the time he went north he may have had only a vague idea of what was up there; or, his intention all along may have been to try to make it to Terry, as Reno suspected; or, he just hoped something would present itself---- I cannot say.
[quote]
All valid points Larsen, but to your point above I disagree. Custer was not moving blindly north. He had Bouyer with him, and Bouyer knew that country. He could have easily pointed Custer to the next best ford.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on December 10 2004 1:50:49 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 2:06:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
All valid points Larsen, but to your point above I disagree. Custer was not moving blindly north. He had Bouyer with him, and Bouyer knew that country. He could have easily pointed Custer to the next best ford.
Then I'd have to wonder if Bouyer gave Custer false assurances. Scouts weren't perfect; IIRC, Reynolds misidentified one creek on the march which caused a great deal of inconvenience. Using Gray's conclusions, Reno had crossed the river and begun his charge shortly after 3 p.m. Custer did not reach Ford B until another hour and 20 minutes had passed. If Bouyer had told Custer it'd take that long to reach the next best ford, would Custer have done it? I'm skeptical.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 2:46:22 PM
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Concurrent with the new theories is the thought that the village ended south of MTC. There were few to defend it, it has been said, since the warriors were dealing with Reno. If he was going to get the hostages, MTC is the straight shot rather than retreat and parade in view north. The "feint" scenario is too problematic, given there didn't seem to be a payoff for the cavalry visible then or now.
And "knew the country" (I've used it too) is one of those western phrases that crop up as if it meant or could mean that the entire diorama of land the size of France was implanted in someone's mind after a few crusty eyed glances years back. Nobody told Custer there was no easy crossing to support Reno in time to qualify as support rather than a separate action, but it's likely because he didn't ask. What gets me is that from the point Custer headed north parallel to Reno, there is nothing whatever to suggest there would be a crossing for quite a while: he's heading uphill a hundred feet and more above the river.
And he ain't hauling his iron butt either. This steams me when people complain about Benteen's less than Secretariat time that they never, ever, complain about Custer's putter to "support" Reno. Same criteria to all, please. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 3:06:51 PM
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| When I stated Bouyer would be able to advise Custer the location of the next ford, I didn't mean that literally, but figuratively. When statements are made that Custer was moving blindly, or that Custer was moving north to search for a crossing place, I think it's important to remind them that the argument is not valid. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 3:27:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
When I stated Bouyer would be able to advise Custer the location of the next ford, I didn't mean that literally, but figuratively. When statements are made that Custer was moving blindly, or that Custer was moving north to search for a crossing place, I think it's important to remind them that the argument is not valid.
All right. Since I want to be sure I understand what you're saying, answer me this. Reno has just crossed the river, and is readying his charge. Custer turns to Bouyer and says, "I'd like to make a flank attack, if possible. How soon do you think I can make it to the next ford?" And Bouyer then answers ..... ?
A. "Figuratively speaking, just a few minutes. We'll be killing so many Indians we'll probably shoot McIntosh."
B. "Literally speaking, an hour and twenty minutes. I expect to die shortly, alone and isolated."
C. "Damned if I know."
R. Larsen
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 5:12:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
quote:
Originally posted by bhist
When I stated Bouyer would be able to advise Custer the location of the next ford, I didn't mean that literally, but figuratively. When statements are made that Custer was moving blindly, or that Custer was moving north to search for a crossing place, I think it's important to remind them that the argument is not valid.
All right. Since I want to be sure I understand what you're saying, answer me this. Reno has just crossed the river, and is readying his charge. Custer turns to Bouyer and says, "I'd like to make a flank attack, if possible. How soon do you think I can make it to the next ford?" And Bouyer then answers ..... ?
A. "Figuratively speaking, just a few minutes. We'll be killing so many Indians we'll probably shoot McIntosh."
B. "Literally speaking, an hour and twenty minutes. I expect to die shortly, alone and isolated."
C. "Damned if I know."
R. Larsen
C., because I have no idea if such a conversation took place.
However, to try and make this clear as mud for you, Larsen, I'll add...
D. In an automobile, about 3.6 minutes. Well, if it's a Corvette, then 2.8 minutes. If an old Ford LTD, well, forget it.
On foot, about 20 minutes.
On a good horse about 15, or at a gallop 10.
On a worn out horse, who has just gone through 15 miles of cut ravines and coulees, and 90+ temps, with no shade and to top it off, a late night march...Well, forget it. We’re all dead anyway. And, I told you that earlier today, but you never listen to me. So, what the heck are you asking me for now anyway?!
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 5:25:20 PM
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Dark Cloud: My point was that soldiers are trained to obey orders, lawyers to look for loopholes. Benteen never claimed to understand that he was to come to the village or to Reno or anywhere except to Custer.That is a Larsen invention.
You will have to take your problem with military justice to someone else. I have been a civilian most of my life. At the time I came of age, all able bodied males had a military obligation. I fullfilled mine and am proud of it. I don't have your problem with the military. My thought is the CM board had a better understanding of the circumstances of Custer's action than you or I.
I don't claim to know what action Custer would have taken, if Benteen had shown up. Taking hostages is a very good possibility. It worked at Wa****a, despite what you say.
The west side of the river might have been ground for a staging area, but there were a few hundred hostiles to dispute his use of it. Do you suppose that is why he sent for Benteen? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 6:38:18 PM
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I have no problem with the military, other than it's a bureaucracy like any other in how it protects itself and acts. That I don't believe everything it says or automatically kneel before it is justified by its history in this nation, as valid and true as its heroic efforts in our protection. I'm grateful for your service and happy you're proud of it, but it isn't relevant to our discussion, and I don't grant anyone greater insight simply by reason of service and am puzzled why you feel the need to point your service out?
If you think the CM board had a better understanding of the situation than either of us, I would agree and can only so hope. I assume you would feel the same about the Reno Inquiry, also a military tribunal? If not, why not?
Soldiers are also trained to give orders, but you wouldn't know it by Cooke's note. Lawyers are trained to protect their client and to elicit the truth in testimony and, like the miltary, take an oath to do their duty. Benteen was more sophisticated than many in the Army, realized there were arguments you could not win with the press once begun, and tried to keep the arguments related to what happened and, yes, not to search for a scapegoat. He disliked Reno, but he clearly protected him in public and private correspondence at some risk to himself. And some benefit to himself.
Benteen's orders were allegedly to 'rejoin the command' but circumstances forced an alternative duty upon him as, let's be blunt, they had on Custer. Rescuing Custer would have been a big slap at Custer's rep and an undeniable elevation to Benteen's as well as intensely satisfying, and I don't think he'd hesitate if it thought that was the issue and possible. Then Custer would be forced to explain why he refused Brisbin's cavalry, attacked when he did, couldn't find a crossing, didn't support Reno (pooooor Reno in the press, left to die)and retreated east and had to be bailed out by that pro-active no nonsense up and comer Lt. Colonel Fred Benteen (a southerner who fought for the north - a poster boy for the reunification image) elevated recently on the field by Terry. Contrary to the baseless stories, Benteen would have lusted for that opportunity. Anyone would.
But Custer's record had pretty much convinced all the officers including those in his clique that he'd had a fight and continued north and left them as he had left others in the past. Again, the scuttlebutt was that Custer was going to roast Reno when he got back for not being in on the kill or failing to continue - nobody on the 25th seems to have thought Custer was in extremis. Weir wanted to share in the glory, is all. Only later did the stories get patted into shape with the reality.
But Prolar, if taking hostages "worked" at the Wa****a, why was Custer concerned about the gathering hostiles, and why did he feel the need to fool them back to their lodge with march and band? He said and obviously thought that he was at risk from the other tribes down the river. At the LBH, with Cheyenne women and children, would Gall give a hoot? His wife and kids had been killed. He wanted revenge and didn't appear to be in the mood for reasoned risk assessment.
There were Indians everywhere, Prolar, but at least on level ground you could form and exert yourself as cavalry and give them a fight. Where they were, further away from where they had been, Custer had to dismount, have horseholders, couldn't use cavalry effectively given the ground, and because I do not think Custer incompetent or dense I cannot imagine him willingly choosing the ground he died on OR thinking reinforcements on the same ground would change everything. Reinforcements could only arrive following the ridgeback making them easy targets or messily through the coulees and virtual ditches making them easier targets. And, once there, facing the same joys of terrain Custer did.
It's every bit as possible that any yearning glances Custer made south during the Last Stand were with the hope Benteen and Reno would stay and save the regiment, because his group was cooked. I don't actually think that, but Custer was a soldier, and experienced soldiers must have a preponderence of realists among them or they wouldn't have lasted too long. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 7:43:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
C., because I have no idea if such a conversation took place.
Okay, but if you don't know then I don't see how you can say that it's “not valid” to think that Custer may have gone on not knowing for sure what was ahead, because he had Bouyer with him. Personally, if Bouyer knew and reported accurately how the country was, I find it hard to believe that Custer would have chosen to break off from Reno and try to attack the village from Ford B. Maybe I’m wrong.
R. Larsen
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 8:04:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
quote:
Originally posted by bhist
C., because I have no idea if such a conversation took place.
Personally, if Bouyer knew and reported accurately how the country was, I find it hard to believe that Custer would have chosen to break off from Reno and try to attack the village from Ford B. Maybe I’m wrong.
R. Larsen
Okay, but how do you know what Custer would have chosen to do or not do? Come on Larsen, get real for a change? You’re the one, not me, that is making claims on what Custer did or didn’t do.
I never said I know what Custer chose to do or not do. All I said was that before someone claims that Custer did this or that to find out what lay ahead he had a scout with him that may have been able to answer some of his questions. I didn't say Custer asked him for any information.
Geez, all I did was make a factual point that should be considered before making some claims as to why Custer moved north.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on December 10 2004 8:11:49 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 8:23:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Dark Cloud: My point was that soldiers are trained to obey orders, lawyers to look for loopholes. Benteen never claimed to understand that he was to come to the village or to Reno or anywhere except to Custer.That is a Larsen invention.
I haven't invented anything. I have, however, felt free to point out the additions you and others make to the Cooke note. It simply doesn't say what you want it to say. It says far less. For one example of invention, look no further than yourself: you've constructed from words which you regard to be purposely omitted a rather eccentric Custer battle-plan which seems to beg for defeat. Enlighten me as to when Benteen claimed to understand that.
When did Benteen ever claim that he had been ordered to join Custer? At the Reno COI he denies ever getting an order "to unite at any time ... with Major Reno nor with anyone else" (421). I'd be surprised if a smart, careful man such as Benteen ever claimed the note to have said something it actually didn't.
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 10 2004 8:50:37 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 8:46:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
Okay, but how do you know what Custer would have chosen to do or not do? Come on Larsen, get real for a change? You’re the one, not me, that is making claims on what Custer did or didn’t do.
I don't think I've ever claimed such a thing. I have, like others, tried to speculate what was going on based on the known facts and on what is reasonable/probable, but I've never presented it as anything different. I know not to present as fact something that I can't prove. That's why my posts are liberally sprinkled with qualifiers: because often times you can't know something, and it's useless (and an invitation to a debate mauling) to hitch yourself to a position you can't logically defend.
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I never said I know what Custer chose to do or not do. All I said was that before someone claims that Custer did this or that to find out what lay ahead he had a scout with him that may have been able to answer some of his questions. I didn't say Custer asked him for any information.
I actually think this is a good point to think about. What was Bouyer telling Custer? Curley says they talked. Could Custer have done the things he did because Bouyer gave him an incorrect idea of the lay of the land? If he was acting on the word of a scout he trusted some of his actions would seem less of a gamble. We can't know, of course.
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Geez, all I did was make a factual point that should be considered before making some claims as to why Custer moved north.
Well, so what do you think Bouyer could have told Custer? And if what Bouyer told him was indeed accurate, do you think he would have done some of the things he did? I think this is all very interesting.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 9:16:39 PM
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Rational given for the failure of the Reno/Benteen conclave to respond to Custer's location accompanied by additional explanation.
a.) Reno could not abandon wounded troopers.
There were troopers who had been dismounted and,consequently, abandoned during Reno's "charge" from the valley to the bluffs. Reno's humanitarism appears to have increased after he safely arrived upon the bluffs.
b.) In Indian warfare, a few wounded men could paralyze the entire command as they could not be left behind to be abused by savages.
"In this case, however, the presence of the wounded need not have impeded the operations of Reno's detachment since, as Lt. Hare pointed out, the wounded could have been left with the packs train while the rest of the command moved toward Custer's position. With Capt. Mcdougall's detachment Reno had a force of seven companies, four of which had seen no action. In addition, there were some 35 to 40 men from the companies that were with Custer, men who had been detailed to service with the train. There were also a few packers and scouts. Probably all told, Reno had somewhere between 325 and 350 men. But for some reason he was still reluctant to order an advance." E.I. Stewart
c.) Benteen, after observing 12 to 14 dismounted troopers in skirmish being charged and recharged by warriors, had no choice but to render assistance to Reno's men.
Benteen's Report(several days after battle):
Benteen had written that his decision was due to the fact that he felt that, with the great number of recruits, his battalion would stand no chance against the nine hundred or so veteran warriors he estimated were in the valley. Benteen neglected to advise how he determined the number of Indians in the valley as smoke from fires, and dust kicked up by the hooves of hundreds of mounts pretty much obscured vision; nor did he advise how he knew that no "recruits/young warriors" were fighting with the Indians because many did.
d.)Reno and his men could not move forward as they had depleted much of their ammunition during the valley fight.
When the ammuntion mules were brought up, each mule was carrying four boxes, each box containing two thousand rounds. Lt. Wallace saw only one box opened up by Reno's men.
e.) Reno and Benteen had no clue as to the whereabouts of General Custer and, therefore, could not go to his assistance.
During the Inquiry(several years later), Reno stated that he, "heard a few scattering shots, which he believed came from the direction of the Indian village, but that there were not enough of them(shots) to suggest a general engagement."
In his official report written several days after the battle, he wrote,"We could hear firing in that direction and knew that it could only be Custer."
It is not my intent to judge the players in this drama. Some men, as usual, perform well in battle while others do not. I believed that with the passing of time, the honor of the regiment superseded all other motives and, by the time of the Inquiry, much of what the officers knew was tactfully and quietedly forgotten for the good of the Corps. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 11:14:46 PM
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Wiggs,
This is all straw dog and partial truths. You neglect to say who gave these reasons, and when, and what basis there was for presenting them. I'm not going to bother to verify your quotes and attributions, since you've been known to copy other people's writing as your own (often incorrectly), make things up, and not understand what you've copied, often concluding you'd said something you had not or being one hundred eighty degrees wrong on understanding sentences you've written. Even so....
a. Yes. So? Because he could not rescue those, he should not save these in compensation? Further, what do you think would be the point of stopping to rescue each soldier during the retreat? Might as well have stayed in the timber and run out of ammo down the road.
b. Although so many got ground up in those years. Somehow.
Stewart neglects to inform us how many horses Reno had lost, how many soldiers killed and wounded, how many guns on the horses with their ammo lost to the enemy. Reno did not have the three companies he started with. Of those that had survived, clearly to Reno and Benteen both they were in no shape to push-pull, click click, snap to and charge. These were not all seasoned or well trained soldiers and I'd bet a lot of them had just seen their first action worthy of the name.
c. You lose points by trying to be clever and sarcastic by derivitive means, Wiggs. I don't believe Benteen gives your men in the valley as the reason he felt he should stay with Reno. That's false. He just says he saw them under attack in the valley. I'm glad you no longer accuse him of cowardice and failure to rescue them as you have previously. He was told by a superior officer to stop and help, and he did, in what must have been a sorry mess.
Benteen, having been in much combat, should be believed in his estimates which he was qualified to make. There's always dust and obscured vision. In fact, that's a good indication of the numbers that would be kicking up the dust. I don't know why "recruits/young warriors" is in quotes, but I bet it isn't from Benteen. In any case, most Indians, if we believe their tales, were experienced warriors to greater or lesser extent by their late teens and often younger. So, it's a safe bet. In any case, they had just defeated Reno in combat, so they were not only veterans but successful vets.
d. Lt. Wallace, who supports on the record much of Reno's tale, saw one box opened. Fine, that's not all that surprising since Benteen's men had shared ammo after arrival. And it doesn't mean only one box was used, only that Wallace saw only one. Ryan and others say many of Reno's guys burned through a lot of ammo, while others did not. And, in any case, at what time did Wallace see that box being opened? Was it from the first mule Hare whipped forward? What time was that again?
e. Reno and Benteen had no clue where Custer was other than north somewhere. Several people thought that the firing had come from the village. There is absolutely nothing conflicting in the statements you provide. The Seventh wasn't very good (it's very hard to imagine the 9th or 10th falling apart at all, and it's quite possible either of those hardy and excellent units might have carried the day)and this was now apparent to the senior officers.
In any case, Reno's men did move forward. But even by the time Weir got to his namesake, there wasn't much to do for Custer by anyone. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 12:37:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
quote:
Originally posted by bhist
I never said I know what Custer chose to do or not do. All I said was that before someone claims that Custer did this or that to find out what lay ahead he had a scout with him that may have been able to answer some of his questions. I didn't say Custer asked him for any information.
I actually think this is a good point to think about. What was Bouyer telling Custer? Curley says they talked. Could Custer have done the things he did because Bouyer gave him an incorrect idea of the lay of the land? If he was acting on the word of a scout he trusted some of his actions would seem less of a gamble. We can't know, of course.
Well, so what do you think Bouyer could have told Custer? And if what Bouyer told him was indeed accurate, do you think he would have done some of the things he did? I think this is all very interesting.
R. Larsen
You sure ask loaded questions, Larsen. But, the answers could be fun. However, I'm somewhat reluctant to do that because people might get on my case for suggesting a theory with no evidence to support it, and no reference to a book and page number.
So, I'll preface this by saying that everything that follows is just conjecture -- a lot like Fox's book.
For whatever reason, and there are many possibilities, Custer did not cross into the village at Medicine Tail Ford. And, there are countless guesses why he moved north from there onto the battlefield.
Since Custer chose not to move south and reconnect with the rest of the 7th, he either chose to move north or was forced to. If he was forced to, then there was probably not much time or need to consult with Bouyer at that point.
His need to consult with Bouyer would be for two reasons (that I can think of) -- to find another ford or a good piece of ground to defend. Defend for what reasons, who the heck knows.
Now, to fully understand the next part it is advantageous to have visited the battlefield. If Custer still felt the need to either attack the village or capture the non-combatants, then he would’ve asked Bouyer for another good crossing point other than MTF. That place would have been the ford near where today’s Hwy 212 and I-90 intersect. It so happens that’s the area that the non-combatants gathered west of the river.
One cannot see that ford from MTF, of course, but you also can’t see it from Nye-Cartwright Ridge or Last Stand Hill. This is important because Custer would’ve been completely dependent on Bouyer for the right direction to head north. Everyone here mostly understands the rest of the story, so I won’t go into that.
But, wouldn’t it be more interesting to visualize that Bouyer mistook where that ford actually was? He may have remembered it located in the area of the Deep Ravine and advised Custer of that. (As D.C. or Larsen stated in an earlier post about Bouyer not remembering every detail about all of M.T.) The next best crossing, that Bouyer mistakenly advises Custer of, is not much further down river from MTF. But, they will later discover that it is a very long distance from Deep Ravine to the ford at Hwy 212.
This could make more sense as to why Custer moved north instead of going south from either MTF or Nye-Cartwright. And, once Custer finally saw Deep Ravine and realized it would not work as the crossing place that Bouyer promised, it was too late.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on December 11 2004 12:45:34 AM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 08:45:11 AM
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I've always felt that a large part of the Custer "defeat" stems from having to make plans "on the fly". Unfortunately, since everything was happening in "real" time and at once, Custer didn't have much choice. He has actually suprised the Indians, but thinks otherwise. He dosen't really have the luxury of a full-fledged scout of all the terrain, or 17 staff meetings about which ford to cross to get at the Indians. He could, of course, have done nothing and waited for help. But then the BIg Village would probably have gotten away en mass, leaving Custer to hear the abuse heaped upon his head for being timid and slow.
So he attacks. But that's where his "on the fly" plans break down. With the circumstances as they were, NOT splitting the regiment would have been the best choice. The 7th was a tired and hardly a well-oiled fighting machine, nor were the officers a "band of brothers" (pardon the pun). Splitting a command 3 ways (especially when you don't know how many Indians there are or even precisely where they are) requires plenty of coordination, timing and of course, some luck. It also requires that subordinates know exactly what the "plan" is, and it does require those subordinates to use sound judgement and perform well. It's an extremely risky maneuver even under the best conditions. And as the result we have the Benteen order problem, the support promised to Reno problem, and the why Custer didn't cross the river at MTC problem. Such words as "You'll be supported by the whole outfit" and "rejoin the command" and even the "be qick, bring packs" note were all statements made "on the fly" and subject (then and now) to all sorts of interpretation.
Which brings me back to square one, I guess. These are just my general toughts on things, in context of the Benteen "order". Gosh darn it, if he hadn't sent Benteen off there would have been no need for that damn note in the first place!! And truly--there was no real need to send Benteen off to begin with.
OK--I'm done. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 10:03:53 AM
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Really, the only totally and irrevocable bad decision Custer made that day was ordering Reno to attack.
Once that was done and Reno made contact, things 'had' to be attempted on the fly without knowing what they were doing. There was no need of that order at the time. The Sioux weren't moving, weren't doing much of anything.
Also, I've always wondered about this 'support from the rear' assumption about Custer. If you're going to come to aid from the same direction, wouldn't it rather be more advantageous to hit with the most you have with the most surprise? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 10:17:48 AM
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quote:
d.)Reno and his men could not move forward as they had depleted much of their ammunition during the valley fight.
When the ammuntion mules were brought up, each mule was carrying four boxes, each box containing two thousand rounds. Lt. Wallace saw only one box opened up by Reno's men.
Wiggs, based upon notes from Camp's, Custer in 76, each ammunition mule carried two cases of 1000 cartridges each. There was one ammo mule per company and one for the HQ group for a total of 13. I have the actual sources and pages somewhere up in a previous message.
Merry Christmas,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on December 11 2004 10:18:52 AM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 10:23:12 AM
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Although the Indians weren't moving (I assume because they were suprised and otherwise had no reason to move)) I understand Custer thought that he might have been "discovered" and thought the Indians WOULD move (or, gather) before he could actually get to them. Hence his need to choose between doing nothing, or doing something--on the fly, as he probably felt the need for haste. And once that choice was made, lengthy planning was out the window. Reminds me a bit of the old pick-up football games I used to play. You know, where the quarterback would just tell the one receiver to run deep, the other to run short, and he just tried to get the ball to one of them. No clear pattern-just run and hope for the best.
Makes me wonder tho--if Custer hadn't used the split force tactics at The Wa****a, I wonder if it would have occurred to him to even try it at LBH??
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Benteen's order
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