| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 09 2004 : 09:34:01 AM
|
| You make it sound like Benteen had an option of not going under Reno, who'd requested his presence. The people who were actually there take the opposite of your view: Benteen did a lot. You find the need to richochet between the initial arrival of Reno's men to the hilltop and meeting Benteen and the train with the later fight to imply the confusion of the former to the execution of the latter, and that doesn't fly, Wild. The combined command was not defeated, which, given the events leading to its formation, shows leadership (widely accepted) of Benteen (widely acknowledged)who manuevered between a commander in shock and functioning poorly and the other officers and men. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
  |
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 1:57:37 PM
|
You make it sound like Benteen had an option of not going under Reno,
Of course.Benteen had no authority to relinquish his command.Particularly as he had an order from Custer.
Reno for all practical purposes was a casualty and in no fit state to command.
Benteen had a choice,halt and assist Reno or go on and try to find Custer.I don't fault him for halting what I fault him for is his total lack of leadership over the next two hours.
The combined command was not defeated, which, given the events leading to its formation, shows leadership (widely accepted) of Benteen
The combined command could not and should not have attempted to manoeuver in close proximity to overwhelming opposition.But Benteen allowed this to happen in the most foolhardy and incompetent manner.
Saying that Reno was in command is no defense and your attempt to depict Benteen as some sort of mediator between crazy Reno and excited officers makes the 7th sound like a real basket case.
The move to Weir Point was no more that a CYA exercise. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 2:38:22 PM
|
That's ludicrous, Wild. He had no order to join Custer. You can fault him for failure to exert leadership not his anyway, but that's pretty contrived. Further, it's not like Reno was the only one out of sorts.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. Everyone would have been a hero if only they had known something or other. Benteen, as Edgerly, was under the impression that Reno had given Weir permission to go, and he followed in order. What happened next was Reno, the impedimenta, and momentum; Benteen had zero to do with it. If he'd stayed and kept everyone there at gunpoint, you'd be on him for failure to save Custer. Saying Reno was in command, which he was, is absolute defense, especially against such a baseless charge. What transpired at Reno Hill can be found in any battle of duration and it's ludicrous to pretend otherwise. It was confusing and disorganized (a battle, after all)and people hated to recall their actual actions truthfully.
Reno Hill started out a fiasco and ended with the command structure intact and a fleeing enemy. And a bunch of people notably silent or unimpressive during the battle itself over the years suddenly discovered their key participation and that Reno was the stumbling block to Sitting Bull's scalp. Nobody remembers anyone bitching about the retreat that day or the next. Only later. The one constant, year after year, is everyone was pretty damned glad for Benteen being there. Including Reno. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 09 2004 2:40:38 PM |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 9:31:45 PM
|
| Dark Cloud:By most or all accounts Benteen's leadership after the retreat from Weir Point was outstanding.Before that it wasn't. I don't see how you can claim he had no order to join Custer. Relying on memory again, I believe that Benteen said that he ignored Reno's attempts to recall the advance to Weir Point. After Benteen did decide to return to Reno Hill, he assigned French and M Co as rear guard. Seems strange that he chose a company clearly not under his command that had just survived the Valley fight.Godfrey and his company provided the only effective rear guard, and Godfrey did it without orders. |
|
|
|
benteens brother
Corporal
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 10:26:54 PM
|
| Weir should never have gone off half-cocked anyway. The decision to stay put may or may not have been the right one but they should have stuck together under the circumstances. Given the fiasco of the Weir point expedition it may only have then become apparent to Benteen that someone needed to take control. He stood up when he needed to and that's what counts. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 10:31:10 PM
|
Benteen says his orders were, at the time he left Custer's side, when all was said and done to 'return to the command', although he is the only source. The subsequent note was even less helpful.
Recall, that much had transpired in those hours since he left Custer. He's found an unexpected mess at Reno Hill, conflicting with the oral messages of the couriers who'd led him and his men to believe that Custer thought all was proceeding well. This might take some digestion. Custer is somewhere north, some think in the village itself, others don't. Clearly Reno needs help and isn't performing well. Custer is nowhere to be seen, but would know where Reno was. Benteen himself is not in command. What are his options?
First, what has happened, what is happening? How big the village? Benteen doesn't know the story yet. If people told him everything then, which is somewhat doubtful, he has to interpret. Meanwhile, all this other stuff.
He can force Reno to turn over command, somehow, but based on what? At that point, Reno may be in better shape. Benteen would not know what proportion of the officers will back him or, out of procedure, side with Reno. Any controversy on that point is a no go, and once started would have to be seen through. However, there are wounded and defeated men to deal with.
He can calm everyone down and take advantage of circumstance to bring cohesion and order to this section of the 7th. Everyone - everyone - thought that if Custer had been in a fight and stymied, he'd run north to Terry. That nobody thought otherwise (and, by the way, what does this say about Custer?) demonstrates the prevailing mind set of those on Weir Point looking north. They'd missed a big battle and Custer would be annoyed with them. From Weir Point on, Benteen brought order and a successful defense to the 7th.
I believe you're correct, and everyone ignored the bugle to return, and later Reno came forward and everyone followed. It was a mess. But battles often are, and those who think Benteen should have officially usurped a functioning officer under those circumstances I think are very wrong. In reality, if Reno had been bound and gagged, what could Benteen or Weir or anyone do different and better than what happened? What could they do? There were enough Indians visually to start an immediate retreat back to Reno Hill when they moved south.
Weir flinched when he saw the Indians making for him and retreated and his rah-rah heroism and devotion to Custer vanishes from history and from further mention in the Reno Hill battle; vanishes from memory of events. Many did.
Look, lots of guys threw fits and behaved badly when the battle went against them: Sheridan and Hood, among many others. Patton supposedly fired a pistol at an airplane. Physical fits, tears, throwing things. Screaming. Tantrums. They weren't involved with the recovery or retreat, or doing anything constructive. But they were forgiven and allowed to continue because they behaved, in the main, damned well and often won and nobody demanded they turn over command. This isn't totally syllogistic to Reno, but he had performed well before and Benteen knew his record and throughout gave him the benefit of the doubt till his death.
I suspect most people did until it was revealed that Custer had been killed, there had to be a scapegoat, and suddenly it was all so clear. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 10 2004 : 03:54:49 AM
|
That's ludicrous, Wild. He had no order to join Custer. He had an order which could have been interpreted that way.
You can fault him for failure to exert leadership not his anyway,
He had command of 3 troops.That command was given to him by Custer, and Reno had no authority to take command of or redirect any of the other subunits of the 7th without Custer's knowledge.Therefore Benteen by relinquishing control broke the chain of command.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. Everyone would have been a hero if only they had known something or other.
That is why there is a system.That is why Benteen was in error.
Benteen, as Edgerly, was under the impression that Reno had given Weir permission to go, and he followed in order.
So you have Beenteen acting on pleas and impressions.It's no wonder that the excurshion to Weir Point was such a shambles.Really DC a bunch of old women on a shopping expedition would be better organised.
Reno Hill started out a fiasco and ended with the command structure intact and a fleeing enemy. Weir Point was a waste of precious time.Having decided to halt and give assistance to Reno,Benteen should have put his command including McDougal's troop on the defensive.The time wasted on Weir Point could have been put to good use fortifying the position.How many casualties did they suffer because their rifle pits were at the best rudimenary?And as for the fleeing enemy,I thought the whole purpose of the expedition was to prevent just that. |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 10 2004 : 05:15:28 AM
|
He's found an unexpected mess at Reno Hill, Not unexpected DC as he says about his scout, he terminated it because he expected to find work back on the main trail.
conflicting with the oral messages of the couriers who'd led him and his men to believe that Custer thought all was proceeding well.
Great verbiage DC but are you telling us he based his actions on an impression from troopers who had the impression that Custer thought all was preceeding well. ???
He can force Reno to turn over command,
Nonsense.
He can calm everyone down and take advantage of circumstance to bring cohesion and order to this section of the 7th.
Spot on but he didn't.
From Weir Point on, Benteen brought order and a successful defense to the 7th.
From the return to Reno Hill on
and those who think Benteen should have officially usurped a functioning officer
Never any need to,remember it was Reno who was looking for assistance and not to take over command.All that was required was cooperation.
if Reno had been bound and gagged, what could Benteen or Weir or anyone do different and better than what happened
Not move to Weir Point
They weren't involved with the recovery or retreat, or doing anything constructive. But they were forgiven and allowed to continue because they behaved, in the main, damned well and often won and nobody demanded they turn over command
Agreed.Stonewall was a desaster in the penninsular campaign but went on to great things.However if you have an interest in military history you are going to examine the strenghts and weaknesses of commanders , boards such as this are an interesting and entertaining way of testing opinions.
[
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 10 2004 : 09:32:12 AM
|
Just noticed you had a previous post, so inserting this reply to your first post...first, I guess.
1. Coulda. But in the presence of Reno's request, over. In any case, here he was by the village with the train coming. Mission accomplished, now deal with Reno's issues.
2. Wrong, Wild. Reno or any superior rank to Benteen had such authority, and Custer's 'orders' if such vague stuff should be dignified with the term, had been met. He'd "come on". He was bringing the packs. He was at the big village. Now what? Was he supposed to rush with the train into the middle of the village and stop? He'd fullfilled his orders from Custer, if such they can be called.
3. Benteen was not in error by the system or common sense. Further, the system is designed to prevent such revisions from happening. Supposedly.
4. Yes. In battle conditions actions are often taken on such if two thousand years of testimony is any suggestion. You had to have faith in your brother officers; it was misplaced in Weir, but it happened. You can't rush around double checking everything and getting the paperwork, for heaven's sake. Get real.
5. Oh, come on, Wild. Are you condemning the defenders of Rorke's Drift because they didn't meet the goals of the overall campaign, and allowed the Zulu to get away? The campaign was a disaster but Benteen wasn't responsible for that; only for the defense of Reno Hill, which was closer to the village than LSH.
by paragraph your second post
1. No Wild, you're confusing two issues. He returned to the trail because he'd found what he needed to know, and there was no point continuing. He had no reason to expect he'd meet Reno in the condition he did. Quite the opposite.
2. He based nothing on the impression of a Custer success, nor did I say he did. But he and everyone was under that impression and it must have been a shock to find that Martin and Kanipe had not really known what they were talking about. Further, your trying to imply that making a move on such an impression is wrong is not real world or real army. It happens all the time. That's your inner Company Clerk arising in indignation.
3. Not nonsense. The Army had a procedure for it, as I'm sure even the Irish do. E-v-e-n-t-h-e-I-r-i-s-h. So how can you say this is nonsense?
4. But he did, Wild. It's not like he could wave a wand, for God's sake. Just imagine how Benteen was probably inundated with info, stories, complaints, excuses, hysteria, utterly bogus stuff about what Custer was doing and where he is. Plus the wounded. He didn't go off on Reno or anyone and brought order to the fiasco.
5. No, Wild. He met up with Weir and brought him under his wing and organized the defense back and on the Hill. The impedimenta and train didn't get that far when Benteen met with Reno and turned it all around.
6. Yes. Well, he got that, didn't he? And this is quite different from your complaint that Reno was so out of control he was as wounded himself and Benteen was to be damned for subjugating his men to Reno.
7. First, someone had to go to see the whole village and to find out what was going on. It was not, as it turned out, well thought out (a single scout could have done it except no single scout would do it alone and under the circumstances it made some sense)but this sort of stuff happens in battle and your making a big deal of it seems rather unfair. If the command was falling apart and shattered it couldn't have pulled off that - in its way rather impressive - retreat to Reno Hill. It was disciplined and well done with nowhere near enough men. Credit where due. The 7th rallied and it was the presence and stature of Benteen who apparently stiffened the spine.
8. I think you miss the point. All these 'great' commanders were just like Custer: they moved, they attacked with a will. Nelson's brilliance at Trafalgar was to attack in two columns to break up the French/Spanish line and slug it out. That was it. Jackson was insane, start to last, but he made his men move and once he started winning they thought they'd always win. But like Custer, he was heading for a fiasco as well. Does anyone think Jackson would have won on the 3rd Day? He'd have been responsible for greater loss. Lee lost more men than anyone, and Pickett's fiasco was pretty stupid.
You take chances. If you win, history credits you with great insight and audacity. If you lose, you were a fool not to know you'd lose. This is why Custer wasn't stupid, per se, here at LBH. If he'd been able to cross and engage, and Reno was still in the woods, when Benteen came up he maybe could have done a charge up the valley in Reno's area and, who knows, the camp might have panicked and Custer's brilliant plan of staggered attacks would be the source of study and wonder at West Point to this day. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 10 2004 11:30:42 AM |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 06:57:03 AM
|
Dark Cloud:
That last paragraph is interesting--in fact, I was thinking about that very scenario yesterday,as I was on he tractor, mowing my lawn.(Lots of time to think mowing almost 7 acres!!)
Let's say Reno does stay in the Timber instead of the retreat to the bluff. That could mean his men are not in that panic situation, and the Indians aren't in a frenzy and all wound up seeing the cavalry running for it's life.
Then Benteen comes up--instead of finding men crying and Reno "foaming at the mouth" on the bluff, he sees Reno's command on the defensive but at least holding it's own. So he heads for Reno and adds his weight to that "charge".
Or does he???
I wonder--since Reno appears not to have been in dire straits, if Benteen would then ride to Custer as per that note????? His verbal orders seem to have been to "rejoin the command", but that subsequent note wasn't written by Reno and it does indiacte he should join Custer.
What WOULD Benteen have done?? Joining Reno could mean a renewed vigor from that end of the field. But it might also mean TWO commands trapped in the Timber, if Benteen can't get things moving again. |
|
|
|
Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 09:35:12 AM
|
Hi Folks,
I don't think Capt Benteen really did much, if anything wrong. From the note and the verbal assessments passed on to him, no impending danger was implied. He probably was as quick as he could in the circumstances. Having reached the field, he made his own assessment and assisted/took charge of the defence.
It wasn't the first time a written order figured signifcantly in the history of a debacle. Take Lord Raglan's precise order to Lord Lucan before the fateful Charge of the Light Brigade. It may have been precise in Raglan's eyes because he could see what Lucan couldn't and hence, Lucan misunderstood. In Benteen's case, if the note had implied or stated duress rather than excitement, then maybe he'd have a case to answer.
As for Custer being an idiot, Sherman (I think) commented on the man's undoubted courage but added that he had "not too much sense". Sitting Bull, on defending himself against public accusations of murder stated that Custer "was a fool and rode to his death". This is significant as Sitting Bull wasn't averse to putting on shows of bravado himself. Certainly, he seems to have been an inspiration to the likes of Patton and others who never let strategy get in the way of self-aggrandisment. (My humble opinion BTW, no offence).
Weir may have acted on implied standing orders, I don't know - but certainly he seems to be the one who was insubordinate that day.
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 10:07:06 AM
|
I suspect this whole thing comes down to orders. "Come on, big village, bring packs, be quick" must rank as one of the worst.
A good commander writes or issues orders after visualizing how the officer receiving them would read them. This requires that the commander has experience on the other end.
Nobody, for example, ever was confused about Grant's orders. Even those who disliked him cheerfully said that he wrote excellent, to the point, unconfusing orders. That is a great commander. His orders to Meade after taking over gave the AOTP commander a clear, over-riding mission: where Lee goes, you go. Do that, and you have done no wrong regardless of other foulups that will naturally occur in battle.
Above Grant, Lincoln gave Grant what 99% of history's commanders would kill for: an apology and, in essence, a hug for being smarter than the President on an issue, and in writing. I don't have the quote before me, but Lincoln tells him 'you were right and I was wrong.' Gee. Wonder if Grant would go the wall for Lincoln after getting that.....
Other officers put the onus on the subordinant to figure out what the commander would mean, sort of a passive-aggressive technique to keep all attention on the happiness and mood of the commander. I would have to say, and I think anyone would, that Custer would be closer to the latter than former. His orders are subject to interpretation, they are designed to blame the subordinant for some failure. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 11:20:04 AM
|
| It wasn't even Custer's written order, it was Cooke's written interpretation of Custer's verbal order - that order given to a man whose English wasn't the best. |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 1:59:06 PM
|
Hi DC
You raise many interesting points,everything from Stonewall to the Zulu and I will reply to them all, but for the present let me just deal with two critical points.
Wrong, Wild. Reno or any superior rank to Benteen had such authority
This is total absolute bull****.[no offence ment]
Custer split his troops into 4 independent commands .Each command had a mission and could only be redirected by Custer himself.Reno had no authority to assume control of Benteens unit,no more than Benteen had authority to assume control of Lt.M***** pack train.
You cannot conduct an aggressive action with two or more commanders each with the authority to countermand orders issued to sub units.What you are suggesting is a recipe for total confusion.You have one leader or you have no leadership.
Control that day,in that action ,was based on commands not rank.
Benteen in allowing Reno assume control of his unit broke the chain of command.An error which could have proved fatal.
That's your inner Company Clerk arising in indignation
Good for you DC I like it.
Second point---the Come on order
And as posted by Brent------but that subsequent note wasn't written by Reno and it does indicate he should join Custer
As no unit was specfied to come on to, Benteen could interpret this in two ways.1 The silly bugger way that he had in fact a choice of units to report to or 2 the common sense way that he was required to report to Custer.
It is ironic that Cookes note grants Benteen a fig leaf to hide behind.
I will go further on Benteen halting.He was part of an aggressive action.His first order was to pitch in,then he was directed to come on.And what did he do? He halted to support Reno's rabble and wounded.An aggressive action was brought to a halt by Benteen being moved by a pleding shocked Reno.First military principle you don't halt the attack to attend to the wounded.
All the senior officers had been through the CW.They had witnessed wholesale slaughter.You praise Grant DC.That man was as big a butcher as Stonewall.At Cold Harbour because of his pride he would not ask Lee for a truce to attend to the wounded.They lay in their thousands under a burning sun and grass fire and died because of pride.And compaired to this what shocking sight confronted Benteen? 60 Troopers and a shocked major.
I will grant Benteen a fools pardon and his fig leaf.
Hi Smcf
It wasn't even Custer's written order, it was Cooke's written interpretation of Custer's verbal order - that order given to a man whose English wasn't the best.
It was Benteen's interpretation of Cooke's interpretation of Custer's verbals supported by the impression of a non English speaking messenger.
That's another fine mess you've gotten me into.Come on Laurel and Hardy all is forgiven. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 2:34:09 PM
|
Grant made no secret of a war of attrition. And per capita, Lee had a higher percentage of his men killed than Grant or anyone.
Wild, any army that harbored such overly centrist if not divine philosophy as you claim it has would lose every battle. There would be no need for rank, if that was the case. Things change over the hours, and officers are expected to adapt. Benteen did.
Also, if the way this battle and campaign unfolded was more or less typical of how Custer ran things, you can understand why competent subordinants got really annoyed with him. You call up the courier, you dictate clear orders of where you are and what you are doing and what the subordinate is to do and when, you ask the orderly to repeat it, and send him. Can you imagine if Buford at Gettysburg had sent a message to Reynolds that first day that said. "Big Reb Army. Come on. Bring artillery. Be quick. Buford's Adjutant. PS bring rtillery." |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 11 2004 2:59:54 PM |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 2:44:51 PM
|
Guys: I know it's speculation yet again , but what do you think Benteen would have done had he found Reno in the timber and not on the bluff?? On the bluff Reno is in a beaten and pitiable condition; but maybe not so in the timber.
In my mind, it would have been hard for him NOT to have gone in Custer's direction.
Anyone else?? |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 6:49:15 PM
|
All is speculation and conjecture, and your hypothesis is as valid as any other I've read. When reviewing past events, there is a tendency to view fatal or negative endings as being the sole result of incompetence. After all,in this battle, soldiers were unexpectedly defeated, defeat was at the hand of un-trained, aboriginals which is impossible without mitigating circumstances, thus who ever was in charge was at fault. The opposite scenario? The soldiers win, the red savages got what they deserved, the guy in charge is a hero. This leaves us with an important question, could the soldiers have won if other alternatives were chosen by the players in this drama?
Your suggestion that Reno's continued entrenchment in the timber would have negated the "Charge" to the bluffs is very feasible. Would Benteen have been able to "cut" through to Reno? I don't know, but where else could he have gone? If both Reno and Benteen had managed to re-join forces, could they have held out until Custer's subsequent "feint" at MTC? At that point, would a sufficient amount of warriors abandoned the timber leaving the enemy so close to the village? So many questions with so few answers. However, I believe you are correct. Under your scenario, it would have been hard for Benteen not to have gone in Custer's direction. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 11 2004 6:54:19 PM |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2004 : 8:04:39 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Guys: I know it's speculation yet again , but what do you think Benteen would have done had he found Reno in the timber and not on the bluff?? On the bluff Reno is in a beaten and pitiable condition; but maybe not so in the timber.
In my mind, it would have been hard for him NOT to have gone in Custer's direction.
Anyone else??
Actually, I think he would have crossed the river and joined Reno. Reno clearly could have used the help; the object was to capture the village, and he wasn't doing that so long as he was stuck in the timber.
Imagine that you're Benteen, in this imaginary situation in which Reno has not yet been repulsed. There's a battle going on right in front of you, and Reno has been forced on the defensive. In other words, it's not going for your side as you would like it. And this is, let me stress, directly in front of you.
If I'm Benteen, I'm not leaving this situation to go ride off to another command (wherever that may be) to provide support which may, in fact, not even be needed --- and I've had no indication otherwise. There's already a problem here.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 03:32:53 AM
|
Wild, any army that harbored such overly centrist if not divine philosophy as you claim it has would lose every battle. There would be no need for rank, if that was the case. Things change over the hours, and officers are expected to adapt. Benteen did.
Rank has a function within a structure.Only the commanding officer has authority to alter that structure.Benteen altered the mission/structure/profile of an attacking regiment without the knowledge of the CO and against orders.
Also, if the way this battle and campaign unfolded was more or less typical of how Custer ran things, you can understand why competent subordinants got really annoyed with him.
I think I stated way back in this discussion that I felt that Benteen was sulking.Perhaps he was annoyed with Custer but should such personal feelings be used to excuse or hide errors?
Actually, I think he would have crossed the river and joined Reno. Reno clearly could have used the help; the object was to capture the village, and he wasn't doing that so long as he was stuck in the timber.
Oh yeh 69.And Custer is just a mile up the way,knowing Reno is holding his own.He has his unit formed for attack at a passable ford and is awaiting Benteen to reinforce him.And what does our hero do?Ignores his orders and blunders into the Reno position leaving Custer to miss his opportunity, to be forced from an attack formation to a defensive one,to be caught manouevering and destroyed.
You know what assumptions do 69--makes an ass of u and me
|
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 07:05:54 AM
|
I've always felt Benteen did the "right" thing (under the circumstances) when he stopped to aid Reno on the bluffs. Reno was clearly in trouble, disorganized, and pleading for help.
But for Benteen to ignore the come quick note when Reno would have been in the timber, not thoroughly whipped, nor ""pleading for help"--that would be a stretch.
That note (to me) meant come quick TO CUSTER and absent any COMPELLING reason, would need to be obeyed. For Benteen to just join Reno in the timber would be to ignore the "big picture"--which General's get to plan and Captains get to obey...again, absent any compelling reason not to do so. Exercise of sound judgement from subordinates is generally a good thing and they must have some freedom to do that. But it dosen't give the subordinate free reign to do whatever he wants if he just dosen''t LIKE the plan.
In essence--just coming upon Reno fighting in the timber would NOT be a compelling-enough reason for Benteen to join up with him and not follow the come quick order.
All in my humble opinion, as always!!! |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 07:17:33 AM
|
COMPELLING reason
That's the prerogative of commanding officers.
There is nothing in the military manual about pledings.Does a plea outweigh an order?Is there such a thing as a lawful plea?
Sorry to be such a smart ass Brent
Cheers |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 08:42:51 AM
|
What army, what military manual are you talking about, Wild?
First, the written order is so bad if it can be called an 'order' at all, that it can reasonably said that it was accomplished when Benteen got to Reno Hill. He was on high ground at the village, packs were coming. "The command" is not in the note, and emerges from Benteen's recollection of Custer's oral orders hours previous. "The command" could mean Custer or it could mean 'the rest of us' and has been used both ways by people on this board, who refer to all three units as 'commands'.
One individual refers to the train as 'a command.' It was you. What was the train's 'mission,' Wilde? If it heard from nobody, what was it to do? Obey it's last 'command' and pick a trail to follow to obvious death and enemy succor? If it got to the Flat without hearing from anyone, and nobody was in sight, what was this 'command' to do? Which trail would it know to follow? Are you saying it should have continued on the trail absent any additional info, regardless of what's happening around it?
Benteen had a compelling reason to stay with Reno. He could see the bad ground ahead on that side of the river. Not being an idiot, you wouldn't bring cavalry there if there was a chance it would be brought to battle. If Custer had been caught there, which was apparently the case, he'd bounced off and headed north, because there was no way cavalry could operate on that ground.
You don't jeapordize the whole 7th to save Custer or anyone. God knows, Custer wouldn't have to save anyone. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 09:34:01 AM
|
What army, what military manual are you talking about, Wild?
There is a manual DC,please tell me that there is a manual.That such a basic set of rules and regulations existed in Uncle Sams army. You know a book of words that would cover such basics as orders as opposed to pleas.
First, the written order is so bad if it can be called an 'order' at all, that it can reasonably said that it was accomplished when Benteen got to Reno Hill. He was on high ground at the village, packs were coming
It can be reasonably said if you use the silly bugger school of reasoning.
You now suggest that Benteen was justified in halting with or without the Reno crisis? Was Cooke was to blame for this confusion because the message did not read Come on, big village, be quick and halt?DC you have asked me to get real,now come on,Benteen was not stupid.He knew his troops and the reserve ammo were required if not urgently then quickly.It was not up to him to decide where his troops and ammo were to be deployed,it was up to the commanding officer.Common sense would have told him to report to Custer.
. What was the train's 'mission,' Wilde? If it heard from nobodyBenteen to quote you was content that it was fulfilling it's mission and certainly it was not going to hear from him.
Benteen had a compelling reason to stay with Reno.
He made an assumption that a more compelling reason did not lie behind Cooke's note.He was not justified in doing this.
You don't jeapordize the whole 7th to save Custer or anyone.
Exactly DC or anyone and that's just what he did.He took a decision to save Reno.Benteen was not part of some search and rescue opperation he was part of an attacking force.
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 10:09:21 AM
|
So.....you've not read the 'manual.'
The 'orders' you accuse Benteen of failing do not meet minimum standards: no location, no time, no specific anything. At best, the note is an exhortation to join the fun, nothing more. Bad, bad command order.
I think it takes a rather stunning lack of imagination not to be able to summon up the confusion and horror that presented itself to Benteen on Reno Hill, crossed upon the size of enemy forces, which neither he nor anyone could imagine Custer attacking on his own. It's unstable ground that makes you go rigid, and his duty, and it was correct, was to organize what forces they had to respond to a clarifying Custer order and to guarantee their survival.
Custer, it was apparent, had not understood the ground when he gave orders just after noon and the regiment divided. He had told Reno he would support but had not. This is all new info that Benteen processed, and probably concluded Custer did not support because he could not, he'd had a fight and been bumped north, where he would get Terry and come south asap.
This was everyone's reasonable conclusion. Nobody thought Custer in big trouble. Only afterwards did the same officers try to pat this into shape. Benteen, to his credit, did not pretend later to great concern for Custer or alter his story in any major way, although everyone else did to some extent.
Edgerly wrote to Graham "of course we should have gone" to the sound of firing, but nowhere in anyone's report, including his own, did this supposed obvious devotion to rah-rah cliche appear until years after, with Reno safely dead, and they could repattern themselves as heroes, subconsciously if not in fact. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2004 : 1:25:31 PM
|
Ok DC let's try to simplify things.
Let's remove one element from the equation,the Indians.Every thing remains the same except we now find Reno picnicing on Reno hill.Benteen gets the infamous order to come on
Now there is only one commonsense interpretion of the order[although it is not precise] and that is to report to Custer.
Add Indians and all is confusion and Benteen is at liberty[according to you ] to interpret the order as he wishes.
We now have established a new military principal.In the presence of enemy forces orders can be ignored and the recipant of such orders may interpret them as he sees fit.Agreed DC ? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Benteen's order
Topic Locked
