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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 06 2004 : 10:13:29 AM
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Benteen realized the couriers were following the trail back, that therefore no courier could get by him.
Benteen was only interested in couriers carrying messages intended for him.Did he even know or care about all of Kanipes message?
The threat of a big village wasn't withheld. Crow's Nest, Kanipe.And his response was to open up an even bigger gap between himself and the pack train.
How many men had McDougal in his enlarged troop?100 +.So Benteen had at his disposal more troops than Custer.And how did he utilize them?He ignored them and allowed them to become part of the rabble enroute to Weir Point.
It says Benteen realilzed that he was between the village and the train and nothing was to be gained by waiting for the train.
And the pack train would come in it's own good time.Well this was not fast enough for even a shocked Reno who had to do Benteen's job for him.
Nobody bitches that the train wasn't coming as fast as it could,
Reno did
That the Indians didn't win at Reno Hill,
The battle of the LBH was a defensive battle for the Indians.The fact that all stages did not end in a massacre does not mean that they suffered any kind of a defeat.
Reno Hill was confusing, as defeated troops often are, and people weren't inspired by Reno.
Benteen had at least 220 [including McDougals]undefeated troops and as you often point out in good condition so how did Reno cause all this confusion?
Benteen wasn't in charge on Reno Hill, Benteen was at Weir Point when the wounded lurch forward pointlessly.
Of course following his runaway troops.
Benteen did not acquiesce in the shambles, and did in fact take control.
No time given for this in Gray.In fact if appears that the only control he had at 6.00 that day was his own troop.
To postulate that Benteen ought to have refused and continued forward to places unknown for unknown purpose at that place and time is stupid.
You do me an injustice DC,I never suggested any such thing.
Reno's plea was far more precise than Custer's orders,
You bet it was,did he not lose his hat to an arrow.
Have a nice weekend
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 2:19:23 PM
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By paragraph:
Kanipe said he reported to Benteen after returning from the train, and had exchanged info on his way past to the train.
You said Benteen withheld the knowledge of a big village, didn't you? This paragraph is not an accurate summation of what happened by anyone's account.
Not true. He sent back one guy to haul one mule forward to refit those who needed ammo. The train from first mule to last took an hour to come all in.
Correct. Not winning is not the same as suffering a defeat. But they didn't win at Reno Hill.
I didn't say Reno caused all the confusion. You're just being argumentative to no point.
They were Reno's troops at that point.
Gray says Reno, followed by the impedimenta left after REno, twenty minutes after Benteen. And at 6Pm Benteen had charge of H troop. That's correct. Your point?
And you do it again here. What did Benteen do wrong? In order to accomplish what? When was he ordered to do that given the presence of a superior officer?
No comment. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 2:40:19 PM
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The term "Custerphile" has been repeatedly posted on this forum ad nauseam. I am continously appalled by the one sided, negative conotation associated with the term by one particular individual. I realize that the term"phile" is a comb. form attached to another term to denote "fondness" for the attached term.
In other words, the term"Custerphile" merely means one who likes Custer."
It does not mean the following:
A. If you are of the opinion that Custer was not an idiot, you are.
b. If you question the actions of any participant of the battle (other than Custer) you are a Custerphile.
C. If you believe that this tragic battle may have been the responsibility of more than one person (Custer)you are a Custerphile.
D. If you question the theory that Custer may actually have been sane, you are a Custerphile.
What do call someone who is simply trying to discover what actually happened? This anti-Custer rehortic is often carried out to unimaginable extremes.
"That the Indians didn't win Reno Hill and didn't dare to charge, is favorable critique enough."
There is not a member of this forum who is not aware that Reno's stumbling, beaten, demoralized, and panic stricken troopers were spared death for one reason only. The Indians rushed away to meet Custer's approaching troops. After dispatching them, they returned and "dared" to charge once again before taking up a perimeter position. Reno's conclave was rescued, a second time, by the arrival of Terry.
"Benteen had an Independant Command until Reno asked/told him to stop and help. As Larsen once wrote, to have ignored Reno would have been a courtmartial offense of the first rank."
I suppose that this statement means that Reno's rank (major) forced Benteen to comply with the "asked/told."
Let me get this logic straight. Benteen would have been courtmartialed for refusing to comply with an order from a major but, would not have been courtmartialed for disobeying the order of a Lt Col.?
Now that I think of it, I like being a Custerphile. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 3:29:03 PM
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Wiggs, if all you're going to do is erect and tear down straw men, then why don't you stand up and indignantly deny being a child molester? It would contribute as much to the forum, plus I'm pretty sure it has the virtue of being the truth. No one has ever said that believers in your alphabet are a "Custerphile". That you don't know what you're talking about is shown by letter D, "If you question the theory that Custer may actually have been sane, you are a Custerphile" which means the opposite of what you must think it means.
As for the scandal of Benteen stopping to help Reno, you're in reeferland if you don't think he would have had a court-martial whacked up his head had he told Reno, "You're on your own!" as he rode heroically to nowhere certain, leaving Reno's sobbing, dirty, frightened stragglers to wet their pants whenever they heard an Indian war-whoop. The only crisis in evidence for Benteen was Reno's. The order he had received from Custer was to come on to the village. There was no chance of that happening with Reno's men wrecked. Again, since you've appointed yourself the legal expert here --- show us which military law Benteen violated.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 3:31:57 PM
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I'm glad you looked it up. It isn't so terrifying once you know what it means, having been told so often. Still, you manage to get things 180 degrees incorrect.
A. I myself am not of the opinion Custer was an idiot, have said so often, and on this thread. Those I consider idiots have provided their own evidence for the diagnosis.
B. No, if you have an fondness - rational or irrational - for Custer, you are a Custerphile. That's all it means.
C. The battle was initiated solely by Custer, and he retains responsibility for it. Disputing this would make you an irrational Custerphile.
D. If you question the theory that Custer may actually have been sane, you'd be a CusterPHOBE. See? This is where having a high school understanding of English is handy. It would prevent you from, in virtually every one of your postings, composing a sentence that means exactly the opposite of what you think it does, the very definition of functional illiteracy. You do this all the time, Wiggs.
Most aren't trying to find out what happened, despite their protests to the contrary and claims of fascination with some aspect. They're trying to shape what happened, or merely reargue it, for their own entertainment or elevation or to pose, with no basis, as an authority on something, anything. And in order to raise their own self esteem they bad mouth the three main officers.
They have no right to do that, insult the dead. It angers me. These guys did the best they could.
LBH was a fiasco, start to finish. Despite all the mythology and balderdash, even the most cursory investigation reveals that nobody knew what the hell was going on from start to finish, red or white, and everyone did rather poorly. The battle isn't unique (absent one unit being killed)or special or anything. But it's an illustrative example of how from the last shot various innate forces have come to play in its presentation as history, and that story is far more interesting than another imperial battle lost in the hinterlands to aborigines. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 3:43:35 PM
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Kanipe said he reported to Benteen after returning from the train, and had exchanged info on his way past to the train. Reno showed no particular interest Kanipe and just directed him back to the train.If there was any exchange of information it was given voluntary by Kanipe and not at any request of Benteens.
Correct. Not winning is not the same as suffering a defeat. But they didn't win at Reno Hill.
I think Reno hill was a victory for the Indians.They checked the second wing of an attacking force of 400 approx and saved the village with very little loss to themselves.
I didn't say Reno caused all the confusion. You're just being argumentative to no point.First apologies for seeming to be argumentative.
Benteen arrives at Reno's position with 3 troops in good order.An hour behind him is a strong escort and pack train also in good order.Benteen sees that there is a crisis but instead of acting in the manner he did later on in the day ,he gives little or no moral support to Reno and allows that shambles of an advance to occur.He did not have to go after Weir.
They were Reno's troops at that point.
I think that Cooke's note gave Benteen a better claim to them.
Reno's plea was far more precise than Custer's orders,
You bet it was,did he not lose his hat to an arrow.
Again apologies.Had a few pints celebrating the big 60 and was not at my best.
and do have a nice week end
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 5:30:56 PM
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You don't know that. So what, in any case? What's Reno doing here?
True only if Wiggs' offensive wheel is a manner of attack. They had the 7th on a plate and yet didn't dare rush an organized defense, which speaks to how they rated Reno/Benteen to Custer. They clearly didn't think it was much threat to the village, given the dances all night and the half-assed surround.
Wild, you have no clue what transpired between Reno and Benteen. He had given him support by stopping to help with the wounded and dead. He had placed himself under Reno's command. Other than the impedimenta advance, with which Benteen had nothing to do, nothing was a "shambles" except there was no point to it. He had to avoid a conflict with REno or anyone else in uniform to keep it all together. Your criticism is monumentally unfair. Given everything, he did well.
There is nothing in Cooke's note that gave Benteen command of Reno's men. He'd obeyed Custer's order Martin had given him, now he was under Reno. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 9:23:40 PM
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"Wild, you have no clue what transpired between Reno and Benteen."
We all have a "clue" as to what transpired between the two men. You have but to read the various sources that are available. Admittedly, none of us, you excepted of course, can read the minds of dead soldiers.
"He placed himself under Reno's Command."
Actually that's not such a bad idea. After all, Custer and his men were fighting for their lives while Reno meditated upon the "Mount", for over an hour.
"Other than the impedimenta advance, with which Benteen and nothing to do, nothing was a 'shambles' except there was no point to it."
Capt. Weir started out towards Weir's point followed by
Edgerly. Benteen with his remaing two troops lead out shortly after. Had nothing to do with it, he led the main columns!
"He had to avoid a conflict with Reno or anyone else in uniform to keep it all together."
It had already fallen apart. When Benteen arrived, Reno was sporting a white rag around his head and, firing his "pistol" wildly at shadows hundreds of yards out of his range. Wounded troopers were being scalped a short distance away while their brother officers were furiously digging holes in the ground with forks. No one then or now, disputes the fact that Reno was the commander in name only, Benteen being the true leader. How then was it necessary to placate Reno to "Keep things" together?
"There is nothing Cooke's note that gave Benteen Command of Reno's."
The note was written by Cooke on behalf and, at the behest of the Commanding Officer. Therefore the "note" was not the property of Cooke, it was not meant to infer nor, did it insinuate that Benteen should place himself under Reno's command. In fact, its intent was just the opposite. It was a direct order to respond to Custer. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 11:09:44 PM
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This is like kicking a cat in a bag. But, by paragraph.
2. I've read the source books. What transpired, relevant to Wild's question, between Reno and Benteen?
4. He was burying the dead and tending to the wounded. For like the fifth time, pretend you're in charge and tell us exactly what should have been done by Reno, and why, and which units, and post it to Gray's timeline. Explain what this would have accomplished and justify whatever risks it has.
6. Followed by Edgerly and his company. What 'had nothing to do' with what? Can't follow you.
8. Why is pistol in quotes? In any case, it never fell apart: they survived a rough battle in pretty good shape that day and the next. Which wounded soldiers were being scalped alive at this time, and where? Source? If Reno had taken umbrage at Benteen usurping command, justified or not, there could have been a bad problem.
10. If you know the exact intent, aren't you the phone channelling dead soldiers? I've never done that. In any case, he'd come to the big village as quick as possible, and the train was coming as quick as possible. Given the vague note, mission accomplished. Reno asked him to stop, and if he hadn't, Reno probably would have ordered him to stop and help. No proof, of course. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 10:46:37 AM
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Like you said, "Its like kicking a cat in the bag."
By what authority do you assume that Wild does not have an idea of what transpired between Reno and Benteen? Did he inform you that he was ignorant of the matter.
Burying the dead is a fine gesture, rendering aid to your fellow officers is even a more blessed gesture. Reno had Benteen's three companies as well as his remaining troops. Are you implying that both objectives could not have been realized? If so, explain.
Benteen was an intrical part of the "impedimenta" that you claim he had no part in.
Despite your statement that Benteen had to placate Reno and others to maintain control, Reno's attempt to fire his "pistol" at targets totally out of range emphasizes his complete lost of command.
The note is "vague" only to you. It was clear, concise, and specific,"Come On. Big Village."
By the way, that term, "Kicking a cat in a bag", is that something you've done before? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 11:59:45 AM
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Come now, Wiggs. You hang around small children too often if this is your response. At least put them to work to help you with your spelling after your time out period. They know the difference between "lost" and "loss," I'd bet.
I don't need 'authority' for an opinion, based upon his own statements in writing, on Wild's view. Since nobody has an idea of what exchanges happened between Reno and Benteen, neither does he.
What 'both' objectives? Whose? In any case, the discussion with Wild is about Benteen, not Reno. What aid could be afforded, and to whom? Why just the officers?
If Benteen was an "intrical" part of the impedimenta, it's news to Gray. Benteen wasn't wounded or horseless or with the packs during the move towards Weir Point.
You make a big deal out of Reno firing his pistol at targets out of range. Gee, this sort of thing isn't so unusual when enraged and frustrated. It doesn't emphasize anything, and since people still obeyed him, what loss of command are you referring to? Why are you putting pistol in quotes? And by the way, French and Ryan did a similar thing the next day, pointlessly firing at Indians moving out of range. If they'd hit anything, that would have been the end. Which is more stupid? Both are understandable, if foolish.
No, I've never kicked anything in a bag. But since your postings indicate you aren't up to adult levels of spelling, grammar, or thinking, corresponding with you often feels like what I imagine kicking a helpless animal in a bag might be like. The more embarrassed and frustrated you get, the more juvenile. But the world can look upon your own postings, Wiggs. You can't argue the evidence you've provided about those very issues. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 07 2004 12:01:06 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 1:22:45 PM
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Wild's view is as valid as any one that you, or I, could possibly make. It is your assumption that only your viewpoint is legitimate that is so annoying. Everyone, including you, has an opinion on what transpired between these two men. Benteen wrote of it and so did others. You have but to pick up a book, read, and formulate an opinion.
The very fact that you are unaware of Benteen's part in movement towards "Weir's Point" is conclusive evidence that your research is extremely limited. If you insist that Gray did not refer to it, I would surmise that he probably thought most were aware of it.
Your insistence that Benteen's hands were tied due to his need to "Placate" Reno prompted me to emphasize the reality of Reno's condition. His actions were more than "foolish." Not completing your homework after being told to do so by your parents is foolish, spending your week's salary on a lottery ticket is foolish, a Major in the U.S. army, running around like an idiot while his men are being slaughtered is criminal.
Last but not least, your inability to stick to issues without resorting to juvenile denunciations is indicative of an emotionally, stunted personality. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 1:46:16 PM
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I am aware that Benteen moved to Weir Point, and have discussed it on this thread and others for over a year. He went there well before Reno left towards it and Reno was followed even later by the wounded and horseless: the impedimenta. All in Gray. Benteen was not part of the impedimenta, which you stated he was.
There is no evidence Reno ran around like an idiot while his men were being slaughtered. It may make you feel superior to dump on Reno, but unless you've been in comparable circumstances, it's inappropriate.
I've stayed on subject. I never said Benteen's hands were tied. There was a need to avoid an argument with Reno about command for coherence. I think he did well.
Again, Wiggs, the evidence is here on the forum. All your your fabrications, all your temper tantrums. All your missed references. All those sentences that say the exact opposite of what you think they do. People read these, Wiggs. You can't deny you wrote them. You can't pretend they never happened. Who are you fooling? Nobody who can read. Possibly your neighborhood children, though. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 9:51:53 PM
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I am totally amazed that you are now accusing me of having temper tantrums This from a man(?) who has been repeatedly accused of the same charge, over and over again. Wonders will never cease. You are aware that Benteen moved to Weir Point, but you are unaware of Benteen being part of the impedimenta. When Weir departed from Reno Hill with out orders, followed by Benteen and his two companies,and at last, followed by Reno and the wounded, you have a what? A haphazard, uncoordinated, un-military movement. In other words, you have an impedimenta. The described movement is an act of "encumbrance" as real and, as difficult to deal with as carrying baggage and equipment of the army. Your decision to exclude part of this movement to suit your perspective is a typical Dim Clown thread.
"There was no need to avoid an argument with Reno about command" Dim Clown, Posted today.
"He (Benteen) had to avoid a conflict with Reno or anyone else in uniform." Dim Clown, Posted prior.
Which of these two statements, made by you, is correct? They both can not be. This is the man(?) who does not hesitate to cast dispersions and labels of "liar" on others. Dim Cloud, if you are going to continue to throw stones, you really need to move out of your glass house. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 10:09:42 PM
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Having just read part of this thread, I have a few questions. They may be too simplistic for this crowd, but may be a better use of time than berating Wiggs. I have read Gray and as I remember, he was critical of Benteen's lack of speed. However, I don't have his timeline just now, so I'll stay with what has been posted.
Benteen regained the trail just ahead of the slow moving pack train. Does this mean that his scout was not as long and hard as some have claimed? Kanipe having ridden to Weir point and back, talked to Benteen, then carried his message to the train. He then rejoined and stayed up with Benteen.Benteen must have been moving pretty slow or Kanipe had a Hell of a horse. Wild I said that Benteen's had only a six minute lead over the train when Kanipe arrived. I assume this is from Gray.Benteen left the morass as the train arrived. He gained only six minutes while the train was watering and getting unstuck? I believe Benteen spent twenty minutes watering.
Hare said that Reno sent him for ammunition ten minutes after Benteen arrived. He found the train about a mile back.They had stopped to repack. Benteen had no packs, yet he barely is outpacing heavily loaded mules.This is what Larsen calls rushing to the battle? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 11:50:28 PM
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No Wiggs. 'Impedimenta' is defined by Gray, based on previous usage by historians, and used by him and so we use it as well. If you'd actually read Gray you'd know this.
And that's not surprising, since you can't read at all. Ask your fictional neighborhood children for help. You quote me as saying:< "There was no need to avoid an argument with Reno about command" Dim Clown, Posted today.> If you read it - or, better, ask a literate person to read it for you - you'll see that my unedited posting says the exact opposite, and where you see a 'no' is actually an 'a'. How embarrassing for you. After all the previous examples of your incompetence, you're simply not up to it and provide yet another example while arguing that very point.
Rather than try to be clever, which you are not, try to be borderline competent. It would be a huge improvement.
Prolar, Gray was cancerous about Benteen. He clearly hated him as well as Reno. I have great regard for Gray, but the conclusions he sometimes drew from his carefully assembled, precise, fussy, rather annoyingly anal increments of time are, I believe, wrong, or at least unfair. He may have, like many of us, been in revolt against the ludicrous accusations being heaved against Custer during the 60's and 70's.
The classic example is that Benteen estimated the mileage from where he left the regiment on his scout to where he saw Custer dead to be about fifteen miles. He said this in various venues. Gray, and others, believe he was saying his scout from leaving the regiment to returning to the trail was fifteen miles, and therefore a gross lie to exculpate himself. I don't see that.
Gray was dying, and you can sort of see that with the exhausted wrap to the book. Still, I think Gray is the best source on the battle, bar none. I wish Connell had written after him, for SOTMS is just light years above the rest as literature. With those two books, anyone would be hooked. Next is the Custer Myth; the bibliography alone is rather staggering.
As I recall, Kanipe galloped by and yelled info on his way to the train, and then returned. Martin arrived not long after.
Benteen, whose horses had not watered since 8PM, about seventeen hours previous, watered at a bog of unknown size. It's to be doubted that all could water at once, or even significant portions, and this was after others had. Twenty minutes is rational. Also, Custer walked on his way to a supposed flank attack, don't forget. Was Custer hustling to help Reno, as he himself had promised? No. So how can we fulminate against Benteen and not Custer for the same (false) crime?
Hare found the first mules a mile back. The train was stretched way out and took an hour to come all in to Reno Hill. I don't know if the first mules had ammo.
As for Wiggs, you can't let lies get past. He makes stuff up, and since he implied he was a police officer without quite saying so, this is an issue. And really, nothing anybody else has said about his posts is anywhere near as damning as his own remarks. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 07:42:49 AM
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Dark Cloud:
I do sense a bias in Gray against Benteen. Wants us to think that an absolutely stupendous plan from the General has been ruined by a derelict Captain. It's almost as though he forgets that Benteen just didn't simply wander off--Custer SENT him away!!! Whether it was 4 miles or 15, getting him back in lightning fast time was just not possible. As they say-- "Wishing dosen't make it so".
So Gray has Custer "buying time" to enable the "full" regiment to deliver a "decisive attack". Buying time for the "absent" Benteen to return.
Anyway--Too late!!
The time for the decisive attack by the "full" regiment had long since passed. That information (no Indians in the upper valley) came with a LARGE pricetag. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 09:28:58 AM
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Well, I think Gray's dislike is almost social. Benteen, to the modern eye, is a snob and a racist, always commenting on people's backgrounds, and he's a bad drunk, and bitter that his excessive competence isn't rewarded whereas Custer's slapdash approach and lookatme attitude seemed to be.
Further, he DID try to hide the catastrophe at Reno Hill and he DID protect Reno to a degree and he DID try to deflect attention from those fifty-fifty calls that didn't bounce to his favor. This is standard, understandable, honorable, and quite modern, and innocent in that he wasn't trying to avoid the whole truth but because of his adult understanding of how the press and the public could only grasp buzzwords and would only allow certain, melodramatic behavior - rather delusional - to form its image of the US military.
You have Victorian fluff nuts like Lt. Lee saying they'd rather be dead with Custer in glory than alive with the others in shame. People treated this with furrowed brow reverence back then. It took the likes of Sherman to educate those who listened that this (let's be blunt) homoerotic fascination/fetish with glorious death - desecration of genitalia is an added bonus - was garbage, and that war wasn't like Hell, but WAS Hell. It took Patton to inform later idiots that the idea was for the other guy to die for his country, not you for yours. D'oh!!!
And all this before the public relations firm of his wife went to work to elevate Custer to Olympic heights.
Libbie Custer had to have known her glowing tributes were sometimes ludicrous but she also knew that as a widow of a hero she couldn't 'work' like others. So to make ends meet (hubby had lost her inheritance) she threw a saddle across his corpse and rode it for the rest of her life. In the process, she had to drop kick Reno and Benteen to keep the 'controversy' going and stir the market for her talks and books. Very modern, as I say.
Benteen did not roll up like Reno did. He fought back without actually in public taking on Mrs. Custer, who he also despised as a hypocrite, which she was. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 12:43:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Benteen had no packs, yet he barely is outpacing heavily loaded mules.This is what Larsen calls rushing to the battle?
Benteen increased his speed after he got the note from Custer and after he heard firing, and that's what I've talked about. In the past, following Gray, I've criticized Benteen for his pace during the scout itself, but I've become less confident of this and could not honestly criticize him for it now. I really can't say whether his speed during the scout was great, competent, or lazy. That he was just barely ahead of the train when he regained the trail is not evidence of anything, since they weren't covering the same ground.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 1:39:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
No Wiggs. 'Impedimenta' is defined by Gray, based on previous usage by historians, and used by him and so we use it as well. If you'd actually read Gray you'd know this.
This has become one of the defining characteristics of Wiggs. He misuses the word "impedimenta," but rather than admit his error --- that might make him look bad --- he tries to torture and redefine it, anything to make him sound correct, no matter how strained or ludicrous. As a result the truth has been made subservient to whatever his emotional needs are at the given moment. That's detestable, and it's not the first time he's done this. He's attempted to redefine "murder," "offensive", and "hyperbole" too, all in an attempt to avoid being "wrong". This is serious and, I have to say, immoral --- immoral, so long as we believe history should be the story of what happened. People who care more about "being right" than about that creep me out.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 2:52:45 PM
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| Dim Cloud, your refusal to answer the question posed to you is indicative of all that you stand for, pomposity, and a parsimonious, mentality of contempt for those who do not share your limited viewpoints. You did not answer my question because to do so would expose you as having made an error. Rather, you choose to spew forth additional tirades of nonsensical accusations, like an ill-tempered child, as I knew you would. Your inability to do the right thing has even drawn out you co-hort, Anonymous Post-TRAUMA-Poster, to rally to your side with his post-nasal drivel. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 3:26:01 PM
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| Actually, I've answered any of your questions that made sense, Wiggs, which is more than you deserve. Since you yourself can't put together sentences that say what you intend, how much time should be spent answering them? Why not join the neighborhood children in singing your ABC's. Start with the basics. That's a good boy. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 5:11:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Dim Cloud, your refusal to answer the question posed to you is indicative of all that you stand for, pomposity, and a parsimonious, mentality of contempt for those who do not share your limited viewpoints.
He did answer the question, and showed how you had falsified your quotation. You need to apologize.
quote:
You did not answer my question because to do so would expose you as having made an error.
If you speak this sincerely then I doubt you even know what question you asked. The posts are all there for everyone to see. THEY SHOW THAT YOU TOTALLY MISQUOTED HIM in order to make DC's statement say the opposite of what he had actually said. You need to apologize.
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Rather, you choose to spew forth additional tirades of nonsensical accusations, like an ill-tempered child, as I knew you would. Your inability to do the right thing has even drawn out you co-hort, Anonymous Post-TRAUMA-Poster, to rally to your side with his post-nasal drivel.
Come on, "post-trauma," "post-nasal"? If you're going to insult me, then be a little clever about it. Call me a specialist in Larseny or something. If you continue to pump your neighborhood children for any more writing tips you'll soon be calling us all Coodylovers and Stupidheads.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2004 : 7:33:16 PM
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If he calls me Stupidhead there's nothing for it but a bath of blood. I have my limits. I have my pride.
Cootyhead I can live with since it's true, at least until the BugBGone prescription is re-upped, the hair grows back, and I don't have to station a praying mantis on my forehead to keep the numbers down. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 04:42:10 AM
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Hi DC
He had placed himself under Reno's command.
And in doing so took at least 220 men out of the fight.
Reno was defeated,he was in a state of shock,his command a rabble of terrified troopers.By placing himself under Reno's command Benteen's 3 troops and later McDougal's became part of this defeated wing.
Instead of actually assisting Reno to reorganise and replenish his command and set up a defensive position he showed no leadership and allowed dissention and indecision to prevail resulting in the idiotic and potentially deasterious advance to Weir point.
Custer was caught and destroyed because his command was strung out over a mile and here was Benteen engaged in exactly the same thing.
He had to avoid a conflict with REno or anyone else in uniform to keep it all together.
This is nonsense.Conflict arose because there was no leadership
[and you said "and people weren't inspired by Reno".]
and far from keeping it all together the command fell apart.
But for the fact that Weir ran into some uncoordinated skirmishing and was halted that entire command would have followed an emotional officer to their doom.
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Benteen's order
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