| Author |
 Topic  |
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 30 2004 : 9:38:48 PM
|
"You don't know Ammo was the sole concern."
I don't know anything about this battle for a certainty, none of us do. However, I must confess to be puzzled about your inference that other objects carried in the packs, other than ammo, could be of any importance.
Why would the General need, oats, bacon, hard-tack, extra clothing, tents, or other miscellaneous items of human provisions or animal forage. About to engage in a horrific battle that would culminate in the death of his entire command, bullets were his only concern. Do you think that Custer intended to throw bisquits and shirts at the warriors?
Amazingly, once again you misquote my threads then assail my posts as "ridiculous." I did not write that Reno and Benteen were unaware of Custer's position. What I wrote is as follows, "It is simply to easy to affirm that Reno and Benteen were unaware of Custer's position, thus they could not respond." Such a position, one in which you and Largent have proposed continuously and assiduously, is ludicrous when one points out the ample and clearly heard sounds of volley firing emphatically coming from Custer's position.
Your insistent, and totally unfounded theory, that Reno charged into the village for an hour while Custer gaily frolicked among the ridges and byways of the battlefield defies further discussion. |
  |
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 10:56:40 PM
|
Yet again, wrong. You yesterday: "It is simply to <sic> easy to affirm that Reno and Benteen were unaware of Custer's position, thus they could not respond." That's the exact opposite, apparently, of what you think it means. That's pretty ridiculous, Wiggs. And I'm being kind.
I have no theory about Custer and Reno's activies from 3 to 4. It's on Gray's timeline. Gray says Custer walked to keep the dust down. Thought you said you'd read Gray? So, if you have proof Gray is wrong, what is it?
Custer hadn't fired a shot when he sent for the train. His men would need to eat, his horses as well, and he would probably not like to see Dandy under an Indian. Also, medical supplies and other goodies. He didn't know, and apparently didn't consider, that it would be a "horrific" battle. There was ample reason for concern about the train. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 31 2004 : 9:11:27 PM
|
| Since you refuse to read my thread correctly, the debate regarding what I actually wrote has become moot. Regarding your other comments, I would like to express my conviction that in times of emergencies (such as existed in this situation) common sense dictates that the act of "Triage" becomes paramount. In other words, save what is most important first. It is quite difficult to eat horse, utilize bandages, and other "goodies" when your skull has already be severed from your head. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2004 : 2:00:15 PM
|
Custer hadn't fired a shot when he sent for the train. His men would need to eat, his horses as well, and he would probably not like to see Dandy under an Indian. Also, medical supplies and other goodies. He didn't know, and apparently didn't consider, that it would be a "horrific" battle. There was ample reason for concern about the train.
And just what concern did Benteen show for the train?
He didn't bother to send back Cooke's instructions and he did not wait for it.It could just as easly have been Custer he met rather than Reno and then what?Where's the train Benteen?About an hour further back on the trail sir.Did you communicate my instructions to McDougal.Well no sir,but I thought etc etc.
Did Cooke's instructions become more important when Benteen saw the state of Reno's troops?Was he even now concerned enough to send back Cooke's instructions.No he was not, and as seems to be the majority view here, he was not responsible for the train.So what detained him at Reno's position?The plea of a shocked major?The arguement that he could not leave Reno's troops holds no water because when Weir took off Benteen followed.To what purpose?To cover his arse of course in the event of Weir getting through.
And that advance to Weir point did not see Benteen at his best.Weir in front with a runaway troop following and the rest of the command strung out behind with the wounded far in the rear.So much for keeping the command together as a cohesive fighting force. |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2004 : 2:53:23 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
And just what concern did Benteen show for the train?
From E. A. Brininstool's Troopers With Custer, 1995 Bison Books edition, pages 77-79
"A mile or so further on, I met a Sergt. Kanipe coming from the adjutant of the regiment with order--written [sic] for the commander of the pack-train. I told the sergeant the pack-train was about seven miles back, and he could take the order to the commanding officer of the pack-train to hurry up the packs, as [emphasis mine-BJM]I had nothing to do with that-that Capt. McDougall was in charge of the pack-train.
"About a mile or so further on I met Trumpeter Martin, who had brought a written order, which I have. It has no date. It says: 'Benteen, come on; big village; be quick; bring packs. P.S. Bring pac's. COOKE
"It was about two miles from where Major Reno first crossed the Little Big Horn that Martin met me, and about two and a half miles from the burning tepee. I did not know whose trail I was following. I asked Martin, after reading the note, about this village. He said the Indians were all 'skeddadling,' therefore there was less necessity for me to go for the packs. I could hear no firing at that time."
"Well, by this time I had acquired a tolerably fair 'lay of the land.' If I went back for the packs, I feared much valuable time would be lost. If I halted where I was, waiting for the packs to come up, the conditions weren't all that bettered, and this sight of the 'lay of the land' was sufficiently convincing to me that no Indians could hope to get between my battalion and the pack-train."
OK, it is pretty obvious that the pack-train, in Benteen's mind, at the time of Kanipe's message, was still a separate command. The Cooke note seems to have been enough, without explicitly stating so, for him to feel that he was now in-charge of the pack train. While all of Benteen's comments have to be taken as having been given with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, the actions themselves seem rational. His not sending Martin to the train is, to me, based upon his judgement that the situation was not imperative, i.e., that the train would be up soon enough. The situation changed when he went a bit further and found Reno's battalion coming up the bluff, thus Lt. Hare was sent to bring the train up. And, while I have no specific facts to back me up on this, I think we can make a rational assumption that Capt. McDougall was not lolly-gagging in the back, all alone with his mules and his 90-100 men, close to who knows how many Indians.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on August 01 2004 2:56:11 PM |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 02 2004 : 11:18:54 AM
|
Interesting post Billy, many thanks.
thus Lt. Hare was sent to bring the train up.
Did Benteen send Hare back? |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 07:28:08 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Did Benteen send Hare back?
Wild, I will have to get back with you on that one. It does not state specifically in the Brininstool book. In normal circumstances, I would have said either he or Reno had sent Hare back, but, I believe that Reno was communing with the soul of Lt. Hodgson at that time and Benteen, in my opinion, would have said specifically whether he did. In addition, it seems that I have read somewhere that Hare was sent back by someone else or went on his own. Let me look in some books to see if I can find an answer.
Best of wishes,
Billy
|
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 08:07:33 AM
|
I have just checked that myself and it seems Reno sent for the ammo.
Another point, when Kanipe reached Benteen,McDougal was only 6 minutes further back.So when Martin reached him ,McDougal would have not fallen much further back than say 10 minutes.So distance was not a factor in his decision not to send Cooke's order back.
Further,the pack train halted for 20 minutes.Would McDougal have done this if he had seen Cooke's order?
Further Benteen did not wait for the train to arrive at Reno's position but set out after his runaway troop.
Benteen's attitude to the "bring packs"part of the order is one of indifference.It does beg the question was his attitude the same as regards the two other parts of the order? |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 09:00:09 AM
|
It shows neither indifference nor a poor attitude. Rather, he had the diorama of the situation pretty well settled in his mind, accurately, and his assumptions all proved true. If you believe that the pack train was put together again in a mere twenty minutes at the flat, it must have been in very bad shape indeed because it took over an hour for the train to all get up to Reno Hill from there, only a couple of more miles.
You keep stapling your wrist your forehead, sighing, and implying that Cooke's order would have meant so much to McDougall or Mathey, and therefore to Custer, which it technically could have given that it's far LESS hysterical than Kanipe's, and now rather than slipping on the Adidas and bounding off trail to ....wherever, the train can now arrive.....wherever with Benteen. Giving Martin's message would tamp down the hysteria in Kanipe's supposed order. In any case, instruction update would mean nothing to the mules, who pretty much move at their own pace absent being dragged one at a time by quarterhorses as Hare eventually did...to no particular point. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 10:31:06 AM
|
It shows neither indifference nor a poor attitude. Rather, he had the diorama of the situation pretty well settled in his mind, accurately
What a genius he was.A few garbled words from Martin and he understands everything and can in confidence stick Cooke's order in his pocket and think no more of it.
If you believe that the pack train was put together again in a mere twenty minutes
Gray's timing not mine.
You keep stapling your wrist your forehead, sighing, and implying that Cooke's order would have meant so much to McDougall or Mathey,
At 4.52 Reno sent for the Ammo.This action could have been taken by Benteen at 3.58 approx one hour ealier.
Giving Martin's message would tamp down the hysteria in Kanipe's supposed order
What are you saying here DC that Benteen thought Martin's message was not hysterical enough to send back?
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 10:58:48 AM
|
Understanding the diorama has nothing to do with Martin's note. In any case, Benteen immediately showed it to Weir and others. He didn't hide it. He talked of it later and during the siege. Why do you suggest he put it away and thought no more of it, when that isn't true?
Gray merely says they stopped at the flat to organize the packs again. Whether it was actually well accomplished is cast into doubt by the arrival time of the last mules on Reno Hill. Orders to hurry the train up could be ordered every thirty seconds, but mules arrive when they arrive, and it's McDougall's task to keep them protected, better done when in a group.
There was zero point in nagging McDougall and, pretty clearly, everyone back then understood this since nobody ever castigated McDougall for not flailing the mules in a northerly direction cross country - which means the shortest distance, not the trail - to where a good guess would suggest Custer was, excluding Reno and Benteen, leaving any (there would be many) dropped boxes. This, if actually true, was a stupid order.
That ten/fifteen minutes later another order comes saying Benteen hurry, but now with the packs, which by Kanipe's order were now to be hurtling north off trail shedding ammo, suggests whoever is ordering these things isn't an organized thinker.
As everyone has said, nobody thought the Martin note terribly scary. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 9:11:46 PM
|
DC/Largent, I know you are a lot of things, but French,"Voila"
I never suspected. That explains so much about your unique ability to talk out of the side of your mouth and, your significant lack of intestinal fortitude. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 03 2004 9:14:46 PM |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2004 : 11:01:33 PM
|
I'm shattered, Wiggs, of course. To lose your respect....
You might want to realize I'm not the same as Larsen, since Bhist and Markland have taken the time and made the effort to correct you, and ignoring their corrective statements seems rude. Neither am I Largent, whoever you think that is. I have no idea.
But just for giggles, what would you say was the most blatant example of talking out of both sides of my mouth? Or of my lack of intestinal fortitude? If I need to work on diction or my courage, your suggestions would be most helpful. Otherwise, you're just name calling without evidence. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 03 2004 11:05:21 PM |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2004 : 08:50:34 AM
|
he had the diorama of the situation pretty well settled in his mind,
Understanding the diorama has nothing to do with Martin's note.
So do tell DC ,what was this understanding based on?Leaving Martin's note aside the only info he had was that there were no indians off to the West and that the pack train was behind him.
Gray merely says they stopped at the flat to organize the packs again.
They stopped DC that's the point.
Orders to hurry the train up could be ordered every thirty seconds,
Sure and they attempted to do just that---Kanipe,Martin,Hare, but not Benteen.
everyone back then understood this since nobody ever castigated McDougall for not flailing the mules in a northerly direction cross country - which means the shortest distance, not the trail
When Kanipe reached McDougal he was progressing in as northerly a direction as possible.
In any case, Benteen immediately showed it to Weir and others. He didn't hide it. He talked of it later and during the siege. Why do you suggest he put it away and thought no more of it, when that isn't true?
A figure of speech. For all the good Benteen put it to Cooke could just as well have cast it up into the Montana sky.
suggests whoever is ordering these things isn't an organized thinker.
Well if that is so ,it is a double tragedy because the order went to another unorganised thinker.As was pointed out in "Son of The Morning Cloud" it was a disorganised mob who advanced to Weir point and Benteen bears much of the responsibility for this.
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2004 : 11:16:55 AM
|
By paragraph.
Benteen's mental diorama was based upon looking at the land. Sight. This is what officers are trained to do, isn't it?
Of course, the train stopped at the flat. But from the point where Kanipe gave them the orders long before, they continued WEST for at least another half hour. McDougall was NOT heading north at all (why would he, especially before Kanipe arrived?), but following the Creek which is clearly mostly west. (And why do you allow the exculpatory phrase 'as possible' here and not elswhere? McDougall was also going as fast and as well 'as possible.') If Kanipe's orders were correct, McDougall was to cross 'overland' leaving dropped boxes if necessary, in other words creating a hypotenuse to shorten the distance of Custer's trail, apparently to be on Kanipe's description. Stupid, but those were the hallowed orders. How many orders saying hurry does McDougall have to receive and, you say, ignore before you start blaming him and not Benteen?
You accused Benteen of thinking no more of the note. Untrue, with no basis for saying otherwise. And nobody disagreed with Benteen's interpretation of the note at the time, and shared it with him.
Benteen showed great organizational ability, and people there who fought with him seem to agree. When convenient you try to make out Benteen as the commander on Reno Hill; he wasn't. He was on or heading to Weir Point when the great advance of the wounded and shell shocked took off to follow. Not on Benteen's order or in his knowledge till after the fact which, in Reno's presence, was not his to give anyway. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 04 2004 11:29:06 AM |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2004 : 2:13:44 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
DC/Largent, I know you are a lot of things, but French,"Voila"
I never suspected. That explains so much about your unique ability to talk out of the side of your mouth and, your significant lack of intestinal fortitude.
Don't know why you dragged me into this, though it is consistent with your scatter-focused mind. Your disease is less national than mental: your pathological need to lie, your demented inability to read, your saturating hypocrisy. All in all it would be a worthy case study, if there exists a psychologist who could withstand the tedium.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 04:36:21 AM
|
Benteen's mental diorama was based upon looking at the land. Sight. This is what officers are trained to do, isn't it?
I would suggest that perhaps the use of the word "diorama" suggests that he had a bird's eye view of the military situation which justified his decision re Cook's order. And as we know other than the few garbled words of Martin he had no idea what was happening or the dispositions of the troops up ahead.
The impression I have is that the most unpopular detail on this campaign was that of pack train commander.I think Benteen made some derogatory remarks about this duty and there is a fairly detailed description of the difficulties Keogh had as train commander.It is my opinion that this is confirmed by Benteen's curt dismisal of Kanipe and his failure to get involved at any point with the packs even though ordered to do so.
Of course, the train stopped at the flat. But from the point where Kanipe gave them the orders long before, they continued WEST for at least another half hour.
Looking at Gray's map [page 267]Kanipe would have met McDougal midway between the lone tepee and the flat.Now measuring a straight cross country route to Custer's final position I get 7.75 miles.A dogleg course via the flat measures 8.25 miles.So the crosscountry route north [actually north west]was of no great advantage.
You accused Benteen of thinking no more of the note. Untrue, with no basis for saying otherwise. And nobody disagreed with Benteen's interpretation of the note at the time, and shared it with him.
The only interpretation that mattered here was McDougals and he was denied sight of the order.
Benteen showed great organizational ability,
Maybe, but the actions of this great organiser were no where to seen in that little excurshion to Weir point.
Reno was defeated,in shock with his command in rag order.If leadership was ever needed this was the time and Benteen did not deliver.He could not even keep his own command together.
When convenient you try to make out Benteen as the commander on Reno Hill; he wasn't.
Are you saying that after seeing a shocked Reno firing his pistol at Indians 500 yards off,listening to his pleas for help and seeing him neglect his routed command in preference to looking for Hodgkins he was justified in taking no command responsibility?
He was on or heading to Weir Point when the great advance of the wounded and shell shocked took off to follow. Not on Benteen's order or in his knowledge till after the fact which, in Reno's presence, was not his to give anyway.
Your main defense of Benteen has been that he could not leave Reno and the wounded.So why this unplanned advance to Weir point abandoning the wounded?And just in passing what instructions did he leave for McDougal?
|
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 05:33:05 AM
|
[quote]Originally posted by wILD I
Benteen's mental diorama was based upon looking at the land. Sight. This is what officers are trained to do, isn't it? {/quote]
What happened, happened. I cannot for the life of me, believe that Benteen was such an officer, as to renig his rank ... !! He was a hero ... even a Union one ... during 1866 (if not before). Autie?? All I can offer is his dedication to Texas' duty and his application to acceptable, stable, and promultable circumstance--General George Armstrong Custer offered nothing less than momentary happiness; his presence upon the shadows of Flagstaff's greatest offering, cannot be traced, to a certain extent. He was, as they say, the man!
Where is Butler Avenue? I can only guess from my home, Pinewood Ave., near Kachina Boulevard, AZ ... My land ends near Oxbow and Mormon Lake Rd ., etc., on the way to MORMON LAKE !!!
See--they-them Custerphiles--have no clue? Whether it be at Mormon Lake Lodge or them other things that separate the Ozone files from that of the Sasha in the Cameron place ... the Sacred Elephant ... or whatever ...
Hoka hey!!
Votre Sashulya
|
movingrobe |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 07:26:33 AM
|
Hi Robeylady
[quote]Originally posted by wILD I
Benteen's mental diorama was based upon looking at the land. Sight. This is what officers are trained to do, isn't it? {/quote]
I didn't actually post that.It was DC what done it
All very nice Robeylady baby but we're all military types here, not poncy poets so just let's have the facts ma'am just the facts. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 12:47:45 PM
|
By paragraph.
That's an improvement since your earlier postings suggest you had no clue what a diorama was. The position of Custer is irrelevant to the issue that brought the term forward. Of course the pack train was the apple barrel of duties. It was also the Staff of Life and had to be defended. Benteen was comfortable that the Indians were not able to get to the train except through him anyway, this based on his mental diorama.
Good! I've said repeatedly that the Kanipe order was a stupid one, and leaving the trail to travel cross country made no sense.
You can't have it both ways, Wild. If Benteen became head of the train with Cooke's note/Custer's order, and McDougall had already been told to hurry, there was no need for Benteen to repeat the order. He had faith that McDougall was doing the best that can be done. Benteen, if head of the train, therefore denied McDougall nothing. McDougall had his orders.
Absurd evidence for your accusation given the situation. Should he have shot Weir? Arrested him? You can't vacilate back and forth between simpering that trivial ass procedure wasn't followed and then damn Benteen for not immediately and accurately judging what Reno's reaction would be to B's taking over, or second guessing the commander in those situations in front of others, or enforcing or not procedures that might divide or hurt the command. Given everything, Benteen did a damned good job. I've never read a negative critique by an actually experienced battlefield commander with knowledge of the 7th and that battle of Benteen's overall performance. Neither have you. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 7:37:51 PM
|
| Lt Mathey was commander of the pack train. McDougall was commander of the escort Co. Granted that he was the senior officer with the train. I think you make too much of following the trail. Earlier in the day, Cooke brought orders from Custer to Mathey, not McDougall, to keep the mules off the trail as they were raising too much dust. What would have been so stupid about following the order to cut cross country to Weir Point? The trail was probably the best route to Reno ford, not necessarily to anywhere else. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2004 : 10:42:17 PM
|
Because of terrain and the angle described, even if the land had been flat and they knew where they were going, it wouldn't have made a lot of difference. But they'd be going against the grain of the land and it would have been a greater horror.
My point here is that getting prissy with whether or not Benteen followed his 'orders' exactly mandates that the same criteria be applied to everyone else. That doesn't happen with Custerphiles, who pick and choose which items to include. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 06:56:40 AM
|
That's an improvement since your earlier postings suggest you had no clue what a diorama was. Sure thing DC.I thought it was something the troops got from eating too much hardtack.
Benteen was comfortable that the Indians were not able to get to the train except through him anyway,Now don't go putting thoughts in Benteen's head.Other than the info in Cooke's note he knew nothing about the position or strenght of the Indians.
Absurd evidence for your accusation given the situation. Check out Gray's Chronology of events on Reno Hill.It's a litany of confusion with no-one in control.And on page 308 Gray starts a chapter entitled "disorder on Reno Hill".In "Son of the Morning Cloud" we have a description of a demoralised mob advancing towards Weir Point.Benteen acquiesed in this shambles.
then damn Benteen for not immediately and accurately judging what Reno's reaction would be to B's taking over.
Benteen had an independent command and was not required to report to or take orders from Reno.If he saw the shocked condition of Reno why did he place his troops under his command?
. I've never read a negative critique by an actually experienced battlefield commander with knowledge of the 7th and that battle of Benteen's overall performance. Neither have you.
That's because Indians did not write military critiques.
Of course the pack train was the apple barrel of duties. It was also the Staff of Life and had to be defended.
Which makes it all the more puzzling that confirmation of the threat of a "big village" was witheld .
You have posted that when Benteen approched Reno's position, saw what he took to be troops in action and heard firing he galloped forward.Why was a message not sent back to the train at this point?Was our hero still comfortable that the Indians were not able to get to the train except through him anyway
He had faith that McDougall was doing the best that can be done.And seeing Reno's situation and armed with Cookes order he leaves it to Reno a half an hour later to suggest that the best that could be done was to cut the ammo out and speed it forward.
Just to illustrate how letal the failure to pass on orders can be.Just supposing a message had been sent directly to McDougal stating."Mc Dougal,Benteen has been placed in charge of Pack Train and escort.Await instructions from him." |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 08:06:59 AM
|
Yes, the world quivers with the potential import of receiving 'orders' saying 'await orders.' That's the dream of a posturing company clerk if I ever read one. Benteen realized the couriers were following the trail back, that therefore no courier could get by him.
The threat of a big village wasn't withheld. Crow's Nest, Kanipe.
Since you found Markland's posting of August first valuable, read it. It says Benteen realilzed that he was between the village and the train and nothing was to be gained by waiting for the train.
Kanipe's message to the train was the most demanding. You keep quivering with indignation that couriers aren't being sent at these different intervals. To what point? A change to hurry somewhat less, more? What? The train's coming as fast as it can. (This is why Crook was far more successful than others.) You don't get any complaints from the 7th towards the train. Nobody bitches that the train wasn't coming as fast as it could, not during the day of the battle or after. Nobody. Ergo, safe bet that the train WAS coming as fast as it could given the traditional crappy packing of the 7th.
That the Indians didn't win at Reno Hill, and didn't dare to charge it, is favorable critique enough. They feared doing so to one extent or another. They certainly could have taken it. That any one in their right mind thinks seriously that the Indians let them live because of compassion and regard for human life also believes that Custer wasn't mutilated because of his heroism, perhaps nourished with water by Sitting Bull mopping his brow.
Reno Hill was confusing, as defeated troops often are, and people weren't inspired by Reno.
Chapter titles are exciting, aren't they? They indicate that there is info within. Benteen wasn't in charge on Reno Hill, Benteen was at Weir Point when the wounded lurch forward pointlessly. Benteen did not acquiesce in the shambles, and did in fact take control. That he didn't usurp officially Reno's command in the pause between firefights is hardly worthy of condemnation. He led by example and energy and it worked. Nobody says different.
Benteen had an independent command until Reno asked/told him to stop and help. As Larsen once wrote, to have ignored Reno would have been a courtmartial offense of the first rank. To postulate that Benteen ought to have refused and continued forward to places unknown for unknown purpose at that place and time is stupid. Reno's plea was far more precise than Custer's orders, which contain no location or relevant information. "Come on!" had been accomplished. The train was coming as fast as possible. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Benteen's order
Topic Locked
