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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 27 2004 : 4:17:22 PM
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69/DC
It wasn't written to McDougall; it's addressed to Benteen
Let's get this straight lads.Kanipe is sent to McDougal with orders to bring up the pack train.Within a very short time a further message arrives addressed to Benteen telling him to bring up the packs not once but twice.In the name of God and his holy mother it must have occured to Benteen that the packs were urgently needed.Cooke sent two messages regarding the packs.Why did Benteen not apply the same reasoning as Cooke/Custer and send the second message back?Cooke/Custer did not think one message was sufficient to speed up the train.
DC
1. No, it can't. No order or suggestion exists in any form that would indicate to MacDougal the need to leave the train, a foolish move in any case.
Do you not think that two messages in quick succession,one written and repeated and requesting speed would have allowed McDougal a little flexibility in how he carried out his orders?
Martin had nothing new to tell MacDougal
Sure but the message emphasizes the need for the packs.McDougal should have been made aware of this.
And it's perfectly possible Kanipe was sent without Cooke's or Custer's knowledge by TWC
No you don't DC.That's going outside the parameters of fair discussion.
69
and the stuff about the packs seems more an afterthought than anything else.
Then why did Cooke write it twice?
Bring packs --- and this time, WE MEAN IT! Go faster than I told you to go a few minutes ago!"
Did Benteen know what the first order was?For all he knew the first order could have told McDougal to water and rest the mules.
How could Cooke reasonably expect him to respond?
He would have known that troops and ammo were required and have acted as I have suggested.
Another thought that occurs to me. Could Cooke have thought Benteen was actually behind McDougall on the trail?
Of course he could have ,because Benteen failed to inform him of the progress of his scout.Benteen was really great with communications that day.
there was a lot of flying blind going on that day.
Yeh,thanks to old blabbermouth Benny.
Since Cooke wrote the order, and left it unspecific
Sure,but he was writing it to Benteen a senior captain, ya know a little initiative an that sort of stuff.
Oh DC appreciate the early morning posts.Winding down here to retirement and it gets me through some slow days.
Hurrah there. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 5:34:27 PM
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First off, Larsen and I have been distinguished by Markland who was verified by Bhist, so don't pretend we're the same. We're not. Even Wiggs doesn't try that anymore.
It occured not to Benteen nor to Weir nor to anyone that the note indicated else but that action was imminent. Kanipe said fighting had started and Martin indicated the battle was pretty much won.
That Cooke wrote pacs a second time didn't and doesn't indicate much of anything except excitement, just writing in a hurry as if your college roommate sent a note by fraternity pledge saying "Wild, come on, big party down the hall, bring napkins. Hurry! Biff. Ps. bring napcins." There's nothing in that to indicate the truth, which is that Biff was drunk and being held at gunpoint when he wrote it, and that police, cocaine, transvestites, underage llamas, and well armed pimps will fill up the rest of your weekend and two pages of your new rap sheet. The pledge - from Borneo - tells you 'tings is hot, you betchi, what?!' and girls are naked. All true in fact, and yet.......
You finish getting dressed in a hurry and bring the napkins down the narrow corridor where, as the only sober person there, you are chosen by fate to negotiate the surrender of the armed man in the bathroom, the rutting llamas on the lawn, and get your idiot fraternity brothers out of jail.
The next day you're told and the campus newspaer is told that if Wild had only brought the napkins faster..... You join the Anti-Borneo militia and find yourself getting defensive and unable to admit to any failure or hesitation without being told you weren't a Brother to your idiot fellows. Or you'd have brought the napkins faster........
You can't use "packs" and "ammo packs" interchangeably. No doubt they were most concerned with the ammo but Custer wasn't about to shine on his horses and goodies unnecessarily. They're too close to the village, they can't divide the protection of the train, they have to stay together. Besides, the skills of Boston Custer were denied them...
It's perfectly fair to question if Custer and Cooke knew or if TWC took it upon himself to send for the packs through Kanipe. Kanipe didn't see TWC get those orders, TWC just said he'd received them. Reasonable on TWC's part. Since the first order told MacDougal to ride fast and leave any dropped boxes, the Martin order is less hysterical.
Benteen was given the short version by Kanipe as he rode to MacDougal and then returned to Benteen to give the whole thing. Almost immediately Martin arrives with wounded horse and Benteen draws and speeds up as they hear shots. I see no lethargy nor negligence. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 8:15:12 PM
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quote:
Why did Benteen not apply the same reasoning as Cooke/Custer and send the second message back?Cooke/Custer did not think one message was sufficient to speed up the train.
You don't know what "Cooke/Custer's" reasoning was. Nobody does, and that's entirely Cooke's fault. How, specifically, were they to go faster?
quote:
and the stuff about the packs seems more an afterthought than anything else.
Then why did Cooke write it twice?
Why did he mis-spell "packs"? Sloppiness. This is the real world, where if you want people to understand you, you need to be clear about it. If you want the packs to go faster than they had just been ordered to go ("with as great rapidity as was possible," says Benteen) then you say that --- and it would help (a lot) if you suggested how. Cooke didn't do that, if he meant that.
If you want McDougall to abandon the pack train he was assigned to guard, then you say that. If you want Benteen to bring ammo, but not any other packs, then you say that. Cooke's note is baffling in its vagueness, and at the Reno Inquiry, Edgerly testified about how confused they all were by it.
quote:
Bring packs --- and this time, WE MEAN IT! Go faster than I told you to go a few minutes ago!"
Did Benteen know what the first order was?For all he knew the first order could have told McDougal to water and rest the mules.
"About a mile further on I met a sergeant of the regiment with orders from Lt. Col. Custer to the officer in charge of the rear-guard and train to bring it to the front with as great rapidity as was possible" (Benteen's official report, July 4, 1876).
quote:
How could Cooke reasonably expect him to respond?
He would have known that troops and ammo were required and have acted as I have suggested.
So after he wrote the note, Cooke expected Benteen to race back to the train, grab extra ammo (is this just what each soldier could carry in his hands or entire mules?), shanghai McDougall and Company B, and rush them all to the front as the unguarded pack train plods through the dust?
If so, why didn't he just say that?
quote:
Another thought that occurs to me. Could Cooke have thought Benteen was actually behind McDougall on the trail?
Of course he could have ,because Benteen failed to inform him of the progress of his scout.Benteen was really great with communications that day.
Benteen was only supposed to communicate with him if he encountered Indians; if not, head back to the main trail. If anybody is to be blamed it's Custer.
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there was a lot of flying blind going on that day.
Yeh,thanks to old blabbermouth Benny.
Meaning...?
quote:
Since Cooke wrote the order, and left it unspecific
Sure,but he was writing it to Benteen a senior captain, ya know a little initiative an that sort of stuff.
If initiative is what you want, then initiative is what you get: Benteen thought about it, decided the packs were all right and making their way to the battlefield, and since a fight was clearly going on, he rushed his three troops up to the front. Had he gone back to the train, collected extra ammo in whatever form you believe Cooke expected him to (even though he didn't say it), grappled McDougall away from the rear guard without orders, and only then advanced towards the front, he would have arrived at Reno Hill even later than he did.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 12:26:13 AM
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I think the "Come on" portion is interesting. It could be suggested that Custer knew where Benteen was, perhaps, from a high point, saw him back on the trail. Or saw a unit moving and figured it was Benteen, and not the pack train.
"Come on" might mean several things, but this could be debated for days/ And it already has.
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I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 04:30:37 AM
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DC
First off, Larsen and I have been distinguished by Markland who was verified by Bhist, so don't pretend we're the same. We're not. Even Wiggs doesn't try that anymore.
I used the term "lads" to address both of you [DC/69].Perhaps I should
have used "guys"---- apologies.
The order to Benteen placed him in command of the pack train with further instructions regarding the packs.The change in command itself was sufficient reason to inform McDougal.A piece of vital information was witheld from McDougal.You can make the case that at that point in time it made no difference but the possession of information wins battles.
Same goes for Benteens failure to report that he was returning from his scout.
What motivated Benteen to advance to Weir point?An officer from his own command doing a solo run and Benteen reckons it won't look good for him if Weir reaches Custer on his own.
Benteen was not on Custer's team and did nothing more than cover his arse until he was fighting for his own life.
Regards
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 10:26:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
I think the "Come on" portion is interesting. It could be suggested that Custer knew where Benteen was, perhaps, from a high point, saw him back on the trail. Or saw a unit moving and figured it was Benteen, and not the pack train.
Maybe, but I'm reluctant to read that much into it. It's enough to say that Benteen was supposed to "come on" to the village because Custer could see he wasn't already there.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 10:36:52 AM
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Come, Wild. Just because you were caught advocating a company commander breaking orders to rush forward you now say that Benteen had been given command of the train above McDougall with the Martin note. That means that the note DOESN'T just mean the ammo packs, of course, or - if it does - that Custer was of the mind that he should appoint a new commander of the train and withdraw him from it taking the former commander and his protective troops with him leaving the train exposed. Which would have been incredibly stupid.
You cannot dress up that order as a 'change of command' and imply it means something, much less be 'vital', when it does not, nor scurry out from under this with a mind numbing cliche: "possession of information wins battles." So can anything else.
The very fact that his orders can be argued about is Custer's failure. I'd mentioned earlier in this forum that these orders seemed designed to be vague so that, depending on how things turned out, they could be interpreted to best advantage.
Those that knew Custer and were arguably his friends or supporters clearly didn't draw the same from the note you do. Benteen never hesitated to show the note around and gave it away years later, so he saw nothing in it that hurt him. He wasn't an idiot, obviously, and if he had any reason to have thought he'd been at fault, that note could have hit the campfire easy enough. Further, nobody else in the 7th did either. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 10:42:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
The order to Benteen placed him in command of the pack train with further instructions regarding the packs.
How did it do that? All it says is "Bring packs", and nobody, then or now, has agreed on what the hell Benteen was expected to do. Writing ambiguously when you need to be specific does that.
Besides, aren't you arguing that the order directed Benteen to abduct McDougall and troop B, strip away the ammo, and then ditch the train? How, if the order places him in command of it?
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The change in command itself was sufficient reason to inform McDougal.A piece of vital information was witheld from McDougal.
This "vital information" is absent from the note itself.
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You can make the case that at that point in time it made no difference but the possession of information wins battles.
Well, if Custer had just demoted McDougall, decided B Troop needed to abandon the train, and that Benteen was only supposed to bring AMMO, not "packs," it would have helped if Cooke had actually possessed Benteen with this information.
quote:
Same goes for Benteens failure to report that he was returning from his scout.
This canard has already been shot down.
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on July 28 2004 10:46:05 AM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 4:37:24 PM
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When does common sense come to play? Giving sufficient time, I imagine that Cooke may have written a thousand page thesis entitled: "The Pros and Cons of Responding to Our Location in a Hurry."
The reality, of course, is there was not a great deal of time to prepare the order, thus a hastily written note had to suffice!
To create a string of convoluted, unsubstantiated, impossible to ascertain justifications for Benteens not forwarding the information to McDougal is absurd.
Had Benteen forwarded the information, no one would have debated his reason(s) because doing so would have been a perfectly natural course of action to take.
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 06:29:52 AM
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Interesting--.
There's always been lots of opinions and conflicting views on who SAID what, to whom, and when.
Yet here we have the EXACT words that were written--no changing them down the years to match changing views, protect egos, etc.
And look--so much disagreement on what the writer meant and what the receiver thought he meant.
NO wonder the verbal history causes so much controversy!! |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 08:11:47 AM
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you now say that Benteen had been given command of the train above McDougall with the Martin note.
Yes,the note made Benteen responsible for the packs.
I know I'm labouring the point here but
1 It was the second time the packs were called for.
2 It did emphasize the need for the packs
3 It did make Benteen responsible for the packs
4 It did place McDougal under Benteen's command.
5 It did order Benteen's command forward and this would have included McDougals troop.
If Benteen had not been sulking and had used a little initiative it was possible to have 4 troops ,extra ammo and perhaps some of Reno's command at Weir point 30 minutes before they did arrive there.
Benteen shows the note to Reno who at that point had been firing his pistol at Indians 500 yards off.Now what sort of reply does he expect to get from a man obviously in shock?So the senior captain with Cooke's note in his pocket hangs about for the next 45 minutes doing what?Waiting for the McDougal who he has not bothered to inform of the
change in orders.
Also being totally indecisive at the time of the Weir solo run and who ordered Godfrey to dismount and fight a rearguard action?Reno is in shock and Benteen is the senior captain and he displays total indifference to what's going on around him.Benteen had no influence on events from the time he left on his scout to the time he returned to Reno Hill so no blame is attached to him because he did nothing.
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:10:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
The reality, of course, is there was not a great deal of time to prepare the order, thus a hastily written note had to suffice!
Really. Let's take Wild's extreme-liberal interpretation of the note.
"Benteen. Big village. Come on. Take ammo from pacs. Bring B Troop with you.
P. S. Take amo.
W. W. Cooke"
Would that have done the job?
The note wasn't written hastily. It was written sloppily.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:21:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Yes,the note made Benteen responsible for the packs.
You can't say that when your argument is that the note ordered Benteen to abandon the pack train, and strip it of its protection.
quote:
I know I'm labouring the point here but
1 It was the second time the packs were called for.
2 It did emphasize the need for the packs
3 It did make Benteen responsible for the packs
4 It did place McDougal under Benteen's command.
5 It did order Benteen's command forward and this would have included McDougals troop.
1 and 2 just restate each other, it clearly does not do 4 or 5, and your claims about 3 are contradictory and to my mind don't make any sense.
R. Larsen
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:21:43 AM
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If you just take Benteen's reaction to the note alone perhaps the case I'm making is a little weak ,but throw in his entire contribution from the time he left on the scout to the time he withdrew from Weir point and the case against him grows much stronger.
This man hated his Boss.A disgruntled employee is not going to perform to his best. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:31:15 AM
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it clearly does not do 4 or 5,
I beg to differ here 69."Bring the packs" makes Benteen responsible for them and their escort.
1 and 2 just restate each other
To clarify.We have Kanipe's message then Martin's message mentioning the packs twice.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:36:27 AM
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For someone who complained about the lack of an official order book, you now give huge weight to scribbled notes and reports of Reno's incompetence and lethargy from people slithery in recollections of their own conduct and missing from the memories of others.
The time line of Gray does not support his or your contention that Benteen was being negligent or irresponsibly slow. If you don't believe this true, show us how Benteen could arrive with ammo thirty minutes earlier with units able to act as cavalry, how this is in accordance with protecting the packs. Include map positions and time; refer to Gray.
Also, to what point? It makes no sense for cavalry to rush like hell to positions that demand they dismount and fight on foot, and that's what heading towards LSH would require.
How much time passed between Kanipe's passing Benteen and Martin's arrival? Did Martin arrive before Kanipe returned to Benteen from the train? After Martin got a new horse (from where, by the way....), how much time expired till shooting was heard and they drew and took the trot?
Your contention that McDougall has been relieved of command of the train by the note is flimsy at best and less likely than a desired forwarded reminder, for which Benteen knew there was no point, and if the seventh was so loose in orders and command change, then Reno's direct appeal to Benteen is utterly exculpatory to the Captain and cements him to Reno's command, since Custer gave no destination for Benteen or the packs and gave him the order to hurry and bring the packs, mutual exclusives. Such prissy battlefield bureaucracy countermanding common sense and extolled after the fact is pretty silly.
The LAST place the train wanted to be was away from the others. They were a huge target, and we can be sure that they came as fast as they could knowing the enemy was so near. Nobody has yet explained why McDougall didn't obey his orders to flay mules with ammo boxes forward. McDougall was a creature of Custer's, certainly among his acolytes, and wouldn't disobey a direct order. But he did, if Kanipe told the truth. Of course, he wouldn't want to lose Custer's belongings and extra horse, either, an increased risk with a divided train.
So, did Kanipe lie to inflate the importance of his role, or what?
Like the bad training and lack of horses, in which Custer took small interest, the loosey-goosey exchange of information the 7th exhibits this day is indicative of the commander's style and wishes and competence.
From Reno Hill/Weir Point, Custer knew the Sioux weren't running and were in fact attacking. While everyone complains about Benteen not exceeding his orders and reporting things Custer had not requested from him, shouldn't Custer have sent newsy memos to Benteen with Martin? "Hey, the Sioux aren't running, Reno's under attack, I'm looking for a flank attack on the east, hurry the train to ............ and then we'll..........." And this before MTC. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:38:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Yet here we have the EXACT words that were written--no changing them down the years to match changing views, protect egos, etc.
And look--so much disagreement on what the writer meant and what the receiver thought he meant.
Yes--- which shows how poorly written they were. There shouldn't be this much confusion and uncertainty about what the note directed Benteen to do. But there is; always has been. And I'm sorry to say it, but it's Cooke's fault, because there didn't need to be.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 10:47:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
I beg to differ here 69."Bring the packs" makes Benteen responsible for them and their escort.
You have an argument with yourself, because your contention is that the note ordered Benteen to abandon the packs, weaken them defensively, and so leave them vulnerable to attack.
quote:
1 and 2 just restate each other
To clarify.We have Kanipe's message then Martin's message mentioning the packs twice.
And I think all things considered, Benteen should have passed it along to McDougall. But it doesn't direct McDougall to do anything other than what he's already doing.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 8:25:53 PM
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When referring to time lines, please remember that the most critical time line of all was the absense of any action, on behalf of Reno and Benteen, to respond to Custer's position for over an hour! It is simply to easy to affirm that Reno and Benteen were unaware of Custer's position, thus they could not respond. The volley firing heard by virtually every soldier, other than Reno and Benteen, clearly defined the approximate position of Custer's command.
The solitary component of this engagement wherein you may find agreement between the Pro-Benteens, the Pro-Reno's, and the Pro-Custers, is that over an hour of time elapsed before any effort was initiated to contact Custer. An effort initiated by Capt. Weir who had no authority to do so. The vitriolic arguements commenses when partisans of each group attempt to justify the actions of their personal factions as having taken the most appropiate responses.
Yes, the note was written hastily and "sloppily". The critical words omitted by Cooke were "ammunition packs." It is my gut reaction, I certainly have no proof, that those words would have struck an immediate cord with Benteen and, his reaction to the note may have been very, very, different. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 9:21:57 PM
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That certainly does not apply to me. The only one hour of interest is the one between Reno's order to charge and Custer not charging but having a chance to after a leisurely walk along the slopes. If you're going to fine Benteen for allegedly being lethargic, how come the same isn't applied to Custer? This is what I mean by the same standards being not applied to all parties. In any case, both parties had reasons for their pace, and neither should be faulted since the problem started much earlier.
You don't know ammo was the sole concern.
Now you say Reno and Benteen WERE unaware of Custer's position. This is why your posts are often so ridiculous, because you don't know what you yourself have said. You don't mean "on behalf of" Reno and Benteen. You mean "by" Reno and Benteen, but on behalf of Custer. In any case, Custer was sombulent during this period as well. Why is he exempt from the same condemnation? Why didn't he respond to them, if it's now a fault to not respond to positions. In any case, they only knew the general direction. Of the ones who heard 'volley' firing, some thought it came from the village.
What if they were aware, in any case? You still don't tell us the correct answer to who should ride to hypothetically bail out Custer and who stay with the wounded and protect the train, which includess Custer's horse and goodies. Unless you know the solution, you shouldn't condemn those who were on the ground and fought. Again, show us who and at what time; append it to Gray's time line. First, of course, what would be the point of bringing cavalry to ground where they could only fight as infantry. In order to ride in order you have to stay on relatively high and narrow ridges where you'd be picked off like a gallery shoot. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 06:53:35 AM
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In defense of poor Cooke, that note was written in haste and at a time when things were "happening". I think it was merely intended as a supplement to any verbal orders that may have been issued and carried by a courier. It could have been worded in a thousand different ways, but in what it appears to be designed to do, it's an "OK" note. Sent to a Captain exercising an independent command, there's a reasonable expectation it will be understood and acted upon. It may be that Cooke knows Reno's "charge" has been stopped, but I doubt then that he's aware of the rout about to take place.
Fomn Cooke's point of view he wants Benteen AND the packs to come "quick". And not seperately, but simultaneously. In my opinion, it's mainly the ammo that will be needed, but it might contain an implied caution not to leave the packs unattended, or lagging behind. It's mentioned twice after all-PS. Bring Packs.
I'm Benteen getting the note:
Big Village. (We all sort of knew that). Come quick, etc etc. So he wants me and the packs to abandon our little scout and come to Custer--together. Quick.
This dosen't suggest to me any "danger" of Custer getting wiped out unless I show up. I surmise we're still in the "running village" mode. After all the Indians "They Skeedaddeling"!!
So I move toward Custer--not at breakneck speed certainly, but at a pace in keeping with the pack train's ability to move. Then I come upon Reno foaming at the mouth and----. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 09:16:23 AM
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I have to accept that it is very difficult to make a strong case against Benteen other than to accuse him of bad practice.But none the less---
If as seems to be the opinion here the note did not place him in charge of the packs then he had in his possession instructions for the commander of the pack train which he decided not to pass along.The instructions re the pack train were not for him to interpretate but for the pack commander.McDougal could have sent a messenger to Benteen telling him not to wait that he was making the best progress possible and to go ahead.
What was the point in Benteen waiting for the packs?Other than he was playing silly buggers.
What was he hanging about with Reno for?Reno and his wounded were mobile as they proved when they did advance to Weir point.So why did they not advance sooner?Benteen knew full well that to arrive without the packs was far better than to arrive with them too late.
Just to follow Weir makes no sense at all.
So Custers fate depends on a shocked major,a rogue captain and a captain who I suspect to be sulking. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 10:05:43 AM
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Nonsense. The impedimenta advance to Weir Point included men on foot hauling the wounded in blankets, and Reno's men were down many horses. Start with that.
Custer's fate depended upon his own common sense, numerous opportunities to retreat and reorganize, and his decision - or someone's - not to.
You cannot scream at Benteen both for 'not obeying orders' AND for waiting for the packs. Rushing back to join the chorus screaming obscenities at the mules wouldn't get them there faster.
"Benteen knew full well that to arrive without the packs was far better than to arrive with them too late." For who? Why? What is the point to arrive where horses are rather useless? The goal is not the perpetual rescue of Custer, but to keep your force in being to affect the enemy in a negative way. If Custer didn't have the wherewithal to ride out, what is the point of riding in, provided you could make it at all? You certainly could not with the packs.
Just nonsense. To keep feeding new men into a surrounded situation of immobility is make logical obscenities like Wigg's offensive circle fact. This is terrible cavalry ground, and an officer would be an idiot to taking troops there willingly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on July 30 2004 10:14:12 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 10:29:17 AM
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Nonsense. The impedimenta advance to Weir Point included men on foot hauling the wounded in blankets, and Reno's men were down many horses.
You are making the point that it was folly to try to go to Custer's assistance because of the state of Reno troops,the condition of the horses and the slow progress of the packs but this is exactly what Benteen allowed happen.And not in an organised fashion but peacemeal.How do you reconcile this with his concern for keeping the command together as a serious fighting force?
Benteen's contribution was,up the time of the withdrawal from Weir point inept. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 10:55:17 AM
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Benteen wasn't in charge, one.
Benteen didn't 'allow' Reno's horses and men to get shot. What are you talking about? And the state of Reno's troops was terrible. The train was coming as quick as it could. I reconcil his concern with maintaining a fighting force with the facts because he and he pretty much alone did.
Even if there was ability to join Custer, there was no point. To commit to an extended defensive battle on that ground was foolish. Custer was militarily immaterial, strictly speaking. He'd either had a losing fight and gone north to Terry or was dead. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Benteen's order
Topic Locked
