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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 23 2004 : 7:37:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Dark Cloud/Larsen: You both say you believe Benteen's assertion that Reno considered leaving the wounded and running. I'm not an admirer of Reno, but give him some credit. Other than the ethics, it seems to me to be impratical. Reno had just survived a disastrous run, you think he is ready to try again? They have ammo, food and as good a position as they could expect to find. True they are short of water, but at least they are near the river. Where would they go? As Dark Cloud says "get real".
I've said that I don't think it was seriously considered by anyone, including Reno. I think the option was probably voiced, but its problems were obvious, and little time seems to have been spent on it.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 8:22:44 PM
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| Larsen: OK. I thought you meant others who heard the suggestion. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 10:10:40 PM
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"I disagree. A liar is a liar, and a chronic liar such as Thompson would lie about about anything."
Posted by Largent/DC on 7/20/04, 10;54
"Yes. I don't want to condemn Thompson too much. By all accounts he fought with distinction at the Little Big Horn."
Posted by Largent/DC on 7/20/04, 6:35
I don't know but, there appears to be a drastic alteration in a given perspective within a very short time frame. How does one leap from the acrimonious "liar, liar, liar" to the appreciative,"Aw shucks, he was an alright guy?" Could these be the words of a sanctimonious liar? By the way Largent/DC you are nothing but a four-legged, long eared mammal related to the horse and utilized in bibical times. Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome your third personality, Markland, to the fold. (smile) |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 23 2004 10:14:12 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 11:41:41 PM
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Larsen doesn't say he's an all right guy, so you shouldn't contend that's Larsen's position. He says he doesn't want to pound on Thompson's memory anymore given that he was a good soldier once.
You, on the other hand, aren't.
Your first lie was when you said "Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley." When challenged on this, you immediately said:"I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor." See? That's a lie. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 01:38:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
"I disagree. A liar is a liar, and a chronic liar such as Thompson would lie about about anything."
Posted by Largent/DC on 7/20/04, 10;54
"Yes. I don't want to condemn Thompson too much. By all accounts he fought with distinction at the Little Big Horn."
Posted by Largent/DC on 7/20/04, 6:35
I don't know but, there appears to be a drastic alteration in a given perspective within a very short time frame. How does one leap from the acrimonious "liar, liar, liar" to the appreciative,"Aw shucks, he was an alright guy?" Could these be the words of a sanctimonious liar? By the way Largent/DC you are nothing but a four-legged, long eared mammal related to the horse and utilized in bibical times. Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome your third personality, Markland, to the fold. (smile)
J.W. -- I suggest you just ignore D.C. I don't because I enjoy the give and take he and I have at times.
I'd like to give you some comfort and tell you that Markland is, indeed, Markland. He is not D.C. or Larsen or anyone else except Markland. How do I know this? Markland and I have traded emails and he's been generous enough to let me use some of his photos on my Little Bighorn website.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 11:31:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
I don't know but, there appears to be a drastic alteration in a given perspective within a very short time frame. How does one leap from the acrimonious "liar, liar, liar" to the appreciative,"Aw shucks, he was an alright guy?" Could these be the words of a sanctimonious liar?
There's no alteration. Thompson did lie. But he also fought bravely at the battle, was wounded, and risked his life to get water for his comrades, a gutsy move that only a fraction of those on Reno Hill were willing to volunteer for. That was him in action, in his prime. But the same man also turned into a senile old liar as the years went by.
quote:
By the way Largent/DC you are nothing but a four-legged, long eared mammal related to the horse and utilized in bibical times. Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome your third personality, Markland, to the fold. (smile)
I'm honored that you think I'm Markland, but it's not a credit I can claim. You should visit his site: it's outstanding.
D. C. Largent-Markland III
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 12:20:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen: OK. I thought you meant others who heard the suggestion.
I don't think many did. Godfrey thought Weir probably heard it, and if Weir did, French probably heard it also, since he had seniority over him. Maybe some others. Apparently it was a very senior officers' conference.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 4:15:49 PM
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| Bhist, I withdraw my allegation that Markland is an off-shoot of Frick and Frack. Unlike, DC/Largent, and myself, you have always posted as a gentleman should. I believe what you say. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 4:59:48 PM
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"Your first lie was when you said, 'Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that he observed being slaughtered in the valley.' Largent then goes on to say that I retracted that statement the following day, thus I am a liar. DC/Largent failed to continue my quote to its completion which was, "This is according to his own (Benteen) testimony." Ironically, in their haste to call others liars, they resort to lying themselves. What did Benteen actually write?:
"From the ford where Reno first crossed the beautifully blue Little Big Horn we saw going on what evidently was not 'skedaddling' on the part of the Indians, as there were 12 or 14 dismounted men on the river bottom, and they were being ridden down and SHOT by 800 or 900 Indian warriors." Custer Myth-Graham.
Benteen then goes on to describe his response to Reno Hill. The very act which automaticaaly negated rendering aid to those men. Yes, I got the numbers wrong, more men died than I quoted. Secondly, Benteen himself admits the men were being shot. He. reportedly, saw this with his own eyes. Knowing Indian tactics, these "shot" men were probably killed screaming, don't you think?
The point that DC/Largent missed (Lord knows they have missed so many of them) was that I did not charge Benteen with deserting these men to be slaughtered. I stated a fact based on Benteen's admission. I merely attempted to drive that point home in my second reference. Benteen himself admitted that he left them to their faith. DC/Largent see only what they wish to see. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 5:24:52 PM
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...which is that you stated that Benteen didn't do something and then you denied saying that. On the page and several hard drives.
Gentlemen, as a rule and where such amusing titles exist, are generally literate and not given to seriously congratulating themselves in print. It was bad enough hiding behind Lorenzo for sympathy, but appending yourself to Markland's level of social ease is somewhat delusional.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2004 : 02:07:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
[br
Gentlemen, as a rule and where such amusing titles exist, are generally literate and not given to seriously congratulating themselves in print. It was bad enough hiding behind Lorenzo for sympathy, but appending yourself to Markland's level of social ease is somewhat delusional.
What? |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2004 : 7:54:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
[br
Gentlemen, as a rule and where such amusing titles exist, are generally literate and not given to seriously congratulating themselves in print. It was bad enough hiding behind Lorenzo for sympathy, but appending yourself to Markland's level of social ease is somewhat delusional.
What?
I don't understand what you're trying to say with the above quote. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2004 : 1:48:12 PM
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I agree it's a lapse in judgment on Benteen's part; after he got Martin's message, he probably should have passed it along to McDougall. If he had, though, I don't think it would have made any difference in the battle, and his reasoning (that McDougall had already been told to speed up by Kanipe, and that it made little sense to tell him to speed up more, since he was probably already going as fast as he was able to) seems defensible to me. So no, I don't think it was a serious fault on Benteen's part. A minor one maybe.
Apologies for backtracking here lads but I just want to follow up this point.
Failure to inform McDougal that yet another message had arrived from Custer was, far from being a minor fault in fact a potential catastrophic one.It denied Mcdougal the opportunity to distribute extra ammo among his troop,leave the train and possible reach Reno very shortly after Benteen.
Would 4 troops at Weir point say 30 minutes before they did in fact arrive have made any difference ?
Also it is possible that McDougal could have gone even slower if he was influenced by Kanipe's impression of how things were proceeding.This could have resulted in him being cut off from Benteen and Reno and then what?McDougals single troop easy meat for the Indians?And Reno and Benteen running out of ammo?And all because Benteen could not be bothered to relay a vital message.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2004 : 2:03:29 PM
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For an alleged military guy, with hyperventilated regard for 'orders,' you propose that MacDougal should violate HIS orders and leave the train? By whose authority? To what end? The catastrophe would have been an unprotected train so close to that village. Further, all train ammo had been ordered to Custer.
If you worry about Kanipe leaving an incorrect impression and slowing down the train, how would that incoherent bag of contradictory and misinformation Martin have improved that? All MacDougal knew - and was to know by Custer's order - was that he was to hurry and drop boxes if need be and yet he didn't do it. OR he did it as well as he could, keeping the train together. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2004 : 8:49:28 PM
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Under normal circumstances, orders are relayed in a downward mode in a hierarchical system. There are exceptions. A man of equal rank (both are Captains for an example)may give a lawful order to his counterpart if his date of rank is superior. The final order of the senior commander supersedes all previous orders by him. Thus, the senior officer may also countermand his own previous directives by issuing a subsequent one.
Custer's last order to Benteen effectively canceled all previous orders that did not adhere to the command to "Come Quick." The portion of the written order that directed Benteen to "Bring Packs" should have been relayed to MacDougal. Sgt. Martini's description of the battle was flawed as his comprehension of the English
language was limited. However, Benteen had in his possession a written note created by an individual who had full command of the English language.
There are many unknowns regarding this battle. The ammunition train is not one of them. We know that the train went undetected and unmolested.
Finally, keeping the train intact was not a priority as only the safety of the ammunition packs were crucial to the upcoming battle. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2004 : 9:52:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Failure to inform McDougal that yet another message had arrived from Custer was, far from being a minor fault in fact a potential catastrophic one.
I'm not seeing it. Kanipe's message told McDougall to bring the packs up quick, and if any get loose, cut them. That's a lot more direct than Cooke's postscript.
quote:
It denied Mcdougal the opportunity to distribute extra ammo among his troop,leave the train and possible reach Reno very shortly after Benteen.
The whole purpose in having B Troop there was to protect the train from attack. The pack train at the Wa****a came under fire, so this was not an idle concern. And what is it in either Kanipe's or Martin's orders that would give McDougall this idea?
R. Larsen
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 03:36:41 AM
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you propose that MacDougal should violate HIS orders and leave the train? By whose authority?
DC you did say-----
In any case, the orders he got regarding the train were contradictory: hurry AND bring the train.
What I'm suggesting is a possible interpretation by McDougal of those "contradictory" orders which could have resulted in 4 troops with extra ammo on Weir point at least 30 minutes ahead of the time they did reach it.
how would that incoherent bag of contradictory and misinformation Martin have improved that?
A spot of hindsight employed here DC ,don't you think?
69
I'm not seeing it. Kanipe's message told McDougall to bring the packs up quick, and if any get loose, cut them. That's a lot more direct than Cooke's postscript.
Martins message is the second time McDougal has been told to move his butt.To reinforce the urgency it is written and not alone calls for the packs but for the troops which are not yet engaged.Is it not possible that McDougal just might have been stirred into action and have acted as I have outlined if the order had been relayed to him?
Wiggs
However, Benteen had in his possession a written note created by an individual who had full command of the English language
Exactly
Finally, keeping the train intact was not a priority as only the safety of the ammunition packs were crucial to the upcoming battle.
Agreed
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 09:23:32 AM
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Come on, Wild, read. My first quote is about McDougal, the second about Benteen.
Regarding Martin, no, it's not hindsight. The reason that there is a written note is testement to that. Hindsight is Wiggs pointing out the train wasn't attacked and concluding it was therefore stupid not have known that beforehand.
Martin's note is NOT to MacDougal, was not written to reinforce the urgency but because of Martin's English, "packs" do not exclusively refer to ammo packs, does NOT call for the troops 'not yet engaged' (Custer is 'not yet engaged'), and is not in any way more compelling than Kanipe's order; less so, in some ways. These couriers arrive so close together there was nothing to be gained by Martin rushing back right after Kanipe and saying "What he said, sorta." There are no contradictory "orders"; there is a contradictory "order" to Benteen: hurry and drag this rock. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 10:06:51 AM
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Come on, Wild, read. My first quote is about McDougal, the second about Benteen.
Sure,but we are talking about one order here which you stated was contradictory and thus could have been interpreted as I described.
Regarding Martin, no, it's not hindsight. The reason that there is a written note is testement to that.
Are you suggesting that the reason Benteen did not send the order back was because he knew Martin's garbled mutterings would confuse McDougal.
Martin's note is NOT to MacDougal,
Another good reason for not sending it back.
Listen DC I guess it must be early morning where you are so why not go back to bed till you are really awake.
was not written to reinforce the urgency but because of Martin's English
Aw come on DC.It is a second message looking for the packs.If there is no urgency why send another message?
does NOT call for the troops 'not yet engaged' (Custer is 'not yet engaged'), and is not in any way more compelling than Kanipe's order
Reno was engaged.
As above, a second message and very quickly after the first one which in my book screams with urgency.
There are no contradictory "orders"; there is a contradictory "order" to Benteen: hurry and drag this rock.
I won't try to split hairs on this.I'll agree "contradictory order".
Everything Benteen did up to Weir point was lethargic.
Good morning
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 10:27:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Martins message is the second time McDougal has been told to move his butt.
It wasn't written to McDougall; it's addressed to Benteen, and no one knows how Custer intended Benteen to "bring packs" --- Benteen included. Benteen figured Kanipe was enough, and not unreasonably, considering that he had passed through only a few minutes earlier.
quote:
To reinforce the urgency it is written and not alone calls for the packs but for the troops which are not yet engaged.Is it not possible that McDougal just might have been stirred into action and have acted as I have outlined if the order had been relayed to him?
How do you know it was written to reinforce "the urgency"? I suppose it's possible McDougall would have reacted that way --- in the sense that anything is possible --- but I don't think it very likely. The only reason to have B Troop with the train was to protect it from attack. If I'm McDougall, and the train does get attacked because I liberally interpreted a nonspecific order and abandoned it, then I'd get my ass carved out at a court-martial. And deservedly so. Absent McDougall having an Elliott moment ("Here goes for a brevet or a coffin!"), it wasn't going to happen.
We're criticizing Benteen here, but I think Cooke is a lot more vulnerable. He tells Benteen to hurry up --- but while you're at it, bring packs. How? Is he to grab some extra ammo and rush up to the front? Or ride back with all three troops, keep the packs in order, and rush them all to the front as fast as he can get them? At least when Kanipe was sent back, he left with specifics for McDougall about how to carry his order out. But Benteen received none, leaving him to puzzle it out.
Since Cooke wrote the order, and left it unspecific, and did so even though he presumably knew of Martin's bad English, he bears responsibility for it. Even if the vagueness of the order goes back to Custer, Cooke should have realized the problem and for Benteen's sake, asked him for clarification. He apparently didn't.
So how did Cooke expect the order to be carried out? WE DON'T KNOW -- and that is entirely Cooke's fault.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 11:03:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Aw come on DC.It is a second message looking for the packs.If there is no urgency why send another message?
As above, a second message and very quickly after the first one which in my book screams with urgency.
McDougall had already been told to cut out any packs that got loose, so really, how much faster could he be expected to go?
And regarding urgency, the message IS to Benteen, and the stuff about the packs seems more an afterthought than anything else. It's not clear how the order was meant to be carried out. You read it as urgent --- a scream from Cooke --- but such emotion is absent from the actual text. There's nothing in the note that says, "Bring packs --- and this time, WE MEAN IT! Go faster than I told you to go a few minutes ago!"
Really, if Benteen sent the note along to McDougall, what was McDougall to make of it? How could Cooke reasonably expect him to respond?
-Desperately: "Screw the packs --- I have to rush B Troop to the front!"
-Or "Yeah, I already got your message --- I'm bringing them, damn it".
Another thought that occurs to me. Could Cooke have thought Benteen was actually behind McDougall on the trail? The note is addressed only to Benteen, and Kanipe's message was sent only to McDougall. That might explain the lack of specifics --- Benteen was expected to overtake the train, not go back or wait for it. Hence, hurry up and bring packs. But I don't know, and Custer wouldn't know either --- there was a lot of flying blind going on that day.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2004 : 12:47:58 PM
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Wild, by paragraph.
1. No, it can't. No order or suggestion exists in any form that would indicate to MacDougal the need to leave the train, a foolish move in any case.
2. Not suggesting anything. Martin had nothing new to tell MacDougal.
3. A very good reason in fact. Far better than you suggesting MacDougal break his orders, leave his responsibility, and join Benteen. So much for your high regard for orders and military procedure.
4. No, it isn't. And it's perfectly possible Kanipe was sent without Cooke's or Custer's knowledge by TWC. That makes sense, given Martin was sent so soon after. In any case, nobody read the note as a sign of distress.
5. Right. That doesn't explain your phrase "not yet engaged", though, does it, since that would apply to Custer as well.
6. Disagree. Benteen brought a coherent unit up. He didn't sprint all over the field to no point or attack with no possible support or point. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Benteen's order
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