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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 20 2004 : 8:21:54 PM
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Come now, Prolar. I didn't distort you, I quoted you. There is no evidence one way or the other for how individuals acted in Custer's battle. None. You say the privates were lookin' out for number one but that TWC wasn't and wouldn't. That's the Custer Crush.
Heroes and cowards, both alleged, are often distinguished by who had a lot of sugar before an action and had someone there to witness it. Not doubting TWC was often brave, but I don't think he or anyone can always be brave.
Again, much of the current interest in this battle is based on formulating reasons why Custer didn't cross at MTC an hour into Reno's efforts and how TWC ended up with him.
I withdrew my contentions about LSH on another thread, except for Tom. Sorry you didn't see it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 12:10:40 PM
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| Dark Cloud: You quoted me exactly, then claimed something that was never said. I never said that it was cowardly for privates to escape to perceived safety. At some point that was exactly what they should do.I said that a company commander had more responsibility and duties than a private. Performing these duties in this situation, would make him more exposed and more of a target than others, therefore his chances of survival were less. Since TC was the only member of C troop to be recognized at LSH,I think it was very possible that he was not with C troop that day. Now maybe he was and performed his duties no better than Reno.This seems to be what you are implying, since you make so much of him being at LSH. Could be but his record and reputation make it unlikely. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 3:50:52 PM
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| I have never heard any condemnation of the men of Reno's battalion who made it to Reno hill. A commander who abandons his troops and flees to save himself is a different story. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 4:35:54 PM
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It's an open question whether Reno knowingly abandoned troops. In any case, he made no secret of his retreat and encouraged/ordered everyone to follow, so whatever his focus it wasn't just on himself. Next thing to it, though.
I'm further curious what you envision TWC's responsibilities in the situation you postulated might be with soldiers solely interested in saving themselves? Inspiring rhetoric? Covering their retreat? What good is an officer if nobody is listening to him or inspired by his bravery? Or, in Tom Custer's case, there? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 7:51:00 PM
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Dark Cloud: I have allways thought that the most "over the top' defence of Reno was Mari Sandoz claim that Reno had to leave some men because Custer had forbidden trumpet calls. I fully believe that you will someday top that.
Not much good I guess. There is an Indian account of soldiers walking backward and firing. Some claim that this was the C co retreat. Since I'm contending that TC wasn't there, I can't claim he led it. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 11:57:19 PM
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I say Reno fell apart and did a lousy job during the retreat and on the Hill. What 'over the top' defense have I offered? I don't think he was a coward, and he'd been recognized for bravery before as well. If, during Tom and George's conversations, a bullet emptying one brother's brain pan into the other's face might have produced a horrified reaction and behavior not in line with past performance. I wouldn't condemn them, either.
All the bitching about Reno strikes me as a bunch of people knowing they themselves hadn't been bathed in glory and dumping on a fall guy to explain their own failures and the 7ths'.
As for the leave the wounded story, it's unfair. If the Indians surrounded Reno Hill for another two days, would it be better, heroic, or necessary to try and break out to save SOME of the command, anyway? Or does the 7th stay to the last man to defend the wounded who would be, at that point, doomed anyway? Reno's inquiry to Benteen may have been unpleasant, but it may simply have been premature. If he'd asked the next day, who knows? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 22 2004 : 1:04:46 PM
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According to testimony of several people, Reno left the timber with something to the effect of "everybody follow me" to the few people in hearing distance. No attempt to get word to troops scattered through the timber, no chance for everyone to mount, or even find their horse. No provision for a rear guard or any organization at all. Yet you say he ordered/encouraged everyone to follow and it is an open question if he ever knowlingly abandoned troops.
I made a mild attempt at humor rather than call your statement what it is--a clear misstatement of fact. Whatever I may be lacking in ego or accomplishment, I don't need you to point them out. Stick to the discussion or add me to the list of people who don't rate a reply from you. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 22 2004 : 4:00:00 PM
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Most of the soldiers got mounted, apparently and somehow, if not by order than divine intervention. Dismount. Mount, etc. During all this time, if no order had been heard whatsoever, surely there was reasonable opportunity to see what was going on. No thanks to Reno, and he did a lousy job. No argument. THEN, the 'follow me....' But did he know he'd left people behind then? Can't say. Neither can you. I made no mistatement of fact.
I think it pretty clear I was referring to the fellow soldiers of Reno who later noticed he'd been the sole cause of the 7th's failure. THEY had wanted to ride back and forth through the village slaughtering left and right for an hour or so till Custer finished his walk and a made a 'flank' attack, THEY had wanted to stay in the timber come hell or high water (some debate on the 'forest fire' and ammo issue), THEY had wanted to save Custer leaving their wounded to rescue his and contribute to it, THEY had wanted to fight to the last man, but HE made them not do it! The drunken coward! We coulda/shoulda/woulda been heroes if not for him. And those damned Indians, of course, but mostly him.
All this woodland activity was not across the expanse of The Black Forest, but in a small stand of trees by a small river populated by 112 to 180 men (ask Crab), which is why I think that some of those who stayed thought they'd do better on their own than break into the open with all the Indians about.
Who doesn't rate a reply? Why not? Who would remotely care anyway? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 08:00:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Wiggs has provided, aside from the recent uncredited quotes, a deep, meaningful friendship between Benteen and Elliot (out of ether)and the ludicrous emotings in the Indian Perspectives.
At the risk of getting involved in this thread, Dark Cloud, I have read the same regarding Elliot & Benteen in some source book or the other. So, despite not having the exact source title immediately at hand, I will have to defend Wiggs on that one.
Larsen & DC the same person? LMAO, what a hoot!!!
Wiggs, a hint. You can type these posts in Word or some text editor and then cut and paste it to the Message window! Not only do you have the ability to save a lengthy post from the vagaries of server or application malfunction but you also get the benefit of being able to use spell check!!! And to be quite honest, while there may be a nugget of wisdom hidden in your posts, some of the spelling is too atrocious to even attempt to figure out where it may lie. The occasional mispelling is to be expected but sheesh, when some posts contain 50% spelling errors, that is just reflective of not caring for the sensibilities of your audience.
Best of wishes to all,
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 08:47:09 AM
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If the tale of Elliott and Benteen's great friendship is true, my apologies on that point to Joseph Wiggs.
Thank you (and I believe it's not a stretch to do so on behalf of Mr. Larsen as well) for distinguishing between us.
Odd that Benteen in his letter to Price that got published about the Wa****a didn't mention his personal friendship with Elliott above the norm, and that references to Elliott in his letters to Goldin call him the executioner in chief. And not in a nice way. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 11:59:45 AM
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Dark Cloud: I was positive that you had once said that you would no longer reply to posts from Wiggs or Lorenzo. Apparently I was wrong, so my apologies to you. No harm intended, blame my faulty memory.
My criticism of Reno is the way his retreat or "charge" to Reno hill was conducted. I don't believe there was much he could have done to help Custer after the retreat. I have never given credence to Benteen's story of Reno wanting to abandon the wounded on Reno hill.
I still believe that he knowlingly abandoned part of his command in the timber. There is testimony from officers and enlisted men who had no word whatever to move out. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 12:56:23 PM
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I do believe Benteen about the wounded and Reno's willingness to leave them.
And probably some officers and men didn't hear or see everyone else mounting or receive orders to do so. But that's different than Reno knowing he'd left men there. Granted, he may not have cared much, but he could reasonably assume that anyone paying attention would have noticed the noise and activity if nothing else. It wasn't a large area, so let's be real.
I'll reply to anyone if I can read their posts, and I told Lorenzo I wasn't going to spend a lot of time on his if he himself didn't spend more time on them. This assumes he isn't a construct, and I'm unsure on that point. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 1:10:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
At the risk of getting involved in this thread, Dark Cloud, I have read the same regarding Elliot & Benteen in some source book or the other. So, despite not having the exact source title immediately at hand, I will have to defend Wiggs on that one.
I've never seen any evidence that Benteen and Elliott were personal friends, and I don't think Wiggs has either, since he's never brought up any. It's possible they might have been --- friendships don't always enter the record --- but the objection against Wiggs was that he said they were, with nothing to show it on. It's a common malady with him.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 1:27:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
My criticism of Reno is the way his retreat or "charge" to Reno hill was conducted. I don't believe there was much he could have done to help Custer after the retreat. I have never given credence to Benteen's story of Reno wanting to abandon the wounded on Reno hill.
Caveat: it's Godfrey's story, not Benteen's. He never wrote anything about it, directly.
I do give it credence, though I'm skeptical that saying Reno "wanted to" accurately reflects what happened. My sense --- from Godfrey's thirdhand versions of the story --- is that Reno suggested it, as an option, on the night of the 25th, but did not advocate it. It was quickly dismissed by the others.
The shock, I think, was not that Reno seriously desired it --- he probably didn't --- but that it even came up in the first place. It's a faux pas to bring up uncomfortable issues like that too early, even if eventually they might become necessary. I doubt anyone in the Donner party suggested cannibalism at the first day of being iced in.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 3:49:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Benteen wrote about it to Goldin, didn't he? Although, that's not directly to the public either.
No; I think Benteen might have spoke vaguely of things he knew that would creep you out about Reno, but he never opened up. If he had, Goldin (when he first heard about the rumors) probably wouldn't have ranted to Fred Dustin and others that Godfrey was a big fat liar who was trying to manufacture history out of his own imagination. "Benteen was my personal friend, and if he knew it to be true he would have told ME, not Godfrey," was the basic tenor.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 5:53:05 PM
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| Larsen : What others? I thought this,like the Custer-Weir confrontation over Libby, was a dirty little secret known only to Benteen. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 6:11:59 PM
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| I have been away for a few days and,I have just received the wondeful news: DC will not reply to my posts again. Now, If I can DCs' alter ego to do the same, my ecstasy would know no bounds. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 6:18:31 PM
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| Dark Cloud: I was fortunate a few years ago to visit the site of the Reno timber fight. It was more underbrush than timber. I know it may have changed, but from descriptions, it was pretty much the same at the time. I don't know the size of the Reno defence area, but most Reno apologists claim it was too large to be defended with the men he had. Taylor, a horseholder , said that he didn't recall ever seeing Reno in the timber. Several people claimed that they didn't know know of the retreat until most of the command had left. If you know of testimony that everyone was within sight or sound of Reno , I'll be glad to hear it. Otherwise , I still believe that he abandoned part of his command. Certainly those who were unable or didn't have a horse to mount were abandoned. Of course there is no testimony from them. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 7:24:11 PM
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| Dark Cloud/Larsen: You both say you believe Benteen's assertion that Reno considered leaving the wounded and running. I'm not an admirer of Reno, but give him some credit. Other than the ethics, it seems to me to be impratical. Reno had just survived a disastrous run, you think he is ready to try again? They have ammo, food and as good a position as they could expect to find. True they are short of water, but at least they are near the river. Where would they go? As Dark Cloud says "get real". |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 7:28:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Isn't the letter of January 6, 1892 to Goldin about Godfrey's upcoming article to be published, the one in which he talked about this? Page 192 Graham.
You're right --- my error. That makes Goldin's comments about the story to Dustin and Johnson --- he calls Godfrey a "mental derilect," and as proof of its falsity cites its lack of mention in Benteen's correspondence --- even stranger. I guess he could have forgotten; I did. Or just lied about it, and from him that wouldn't be surprising. His letters tend to feed the prejudices of those he writes to.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 7:29:59 PM
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If it were mostly underbrush, Reno was absolutely right to get out. I don't think that was the case, though. Sgt. Ryan said they were surrounded, that the order was given, but that some men were confused and some had lost their horses. Under the conditions, they could hardly wait for them to get organized. Of the ones who lost their horse, some made it up the hill, like O'Neill and those with Girard. Reno may not have had the men to defend whatever size area he had to cover, but he surely didn't have ammo for a siege, and it made no sense to wait till he was surrounded, does it?
He obviously abandoned part of his command, the issue is did he make good faith efforts to avoid doing so, and if the orders weren't passed expeditiously, that's not entirely Reno's fault. Taylor saw what he saw, is all. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 7:32:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen : What others? I thought this,like the Custer-Weir confrontation over Libby, was a dirty little secret known only to Benteen.
Godfrey was telling others about it in the 1920s. Fred Dustin and Albert Johnson picked it up (they asked for Goldin's opinion about it), and Graham mentions a few that were in the know before him.
R. Larsen
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Benteen's order
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