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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 12 2004 : 08:45:26 AM
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A charge can't be that vague, although in real life 'assume' is correct. It states what law was broken, when and how, and that the prosecution intends to prove it.
Wiggs is trying to say that Larsen and I are the same. We aren't. Further, it wouldn't matter, because is doesn't address Wiggs' propensity for trying to pass off the word for word writings of others as his own, which he apparently feels is research. He couldn't lie his way out of previous incidents, so now he tries to distract with irrelevancies.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2004 : 1:14:23 PM
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"The success or failure of any combined undertaking is almost entirely dependant upon the manner in which each of the participants carries out his part of the plan of operation."
A TACTICAL STUDY: Col. T.M. Coughlan, U.S.A., Retired |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2004 : 1:47:34 PM
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Inspiring. Coughlan was probably a General before his superiors read that numbing sentence. Of course, if the plan is stupid, actions aren't really 'combined', or the commander fails in his assurances, then things could go wrong.
Wow. Write that down. Brilliant.
Another: Unless a commander is utterly sure, there is still a little doubt. I'm on a roll, here. More paper.
Oh! Also: 'nothing impresses the third rate mind more than irrelevant quotes from men in uniform.' Hitler? Could have been, but I can't remember....I'm so moved. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2004 : 2:06:35 PM
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DC/69
Wiggs is trying to say that Larsen and I are the same. We aren't
Well I think on this I have to agree with Wiggs.If Superman is around you don't get Clarke Kent.
DC and I had a lenghty discussion on long range firingbut there was no contribution from 69.Likewise I had a lenghty exchange with 69 on Cooke but no contribution from DC. 69 is like a dog with a bone,just will not let go,same goes for DC.Too many similarities me awl bucko.
So how about it, moderator man?Not fair somebody getting 2 bites of the cherry. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2004 : 4:17:18 PM
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Conclusive proof, that. If two people disagree with you, one must be a front for the other. No other explanation makes sense. Of course.
I didn't participate in the Cooke thing? Looks to me like I did.
I'm at www.darkendeavors.com. Larsen has another ip entirely, makes no sloppy errors in his postings as I have, and esteems the archaeology and theories of manuever by Custer late in the game far more than I, a cancerous view of which is something you and I share. Further, others here know him, I think. We do share similar dislikes, foremost amongst which is the fear that repetition of malarky can insert it into history as an 'accepted' fact.
That's one reason that Wiggs annoys me and perhaps Larsen. He just makes things up to engage like lines delivered in a bar. Quotation marks mean nothing, as I've demonstrated. The lack of them doesn't, however, mean they shouldn't have been employed. Two serious issues.
Wiggs has provided, aside from the recent uncredited quotes, a deep, meaningful friendship between Benteen and Elliot (out of ether) and the ludicrous emotings in the Indian Perspectives. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2004 : 9:04:27 PM
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| A wink is as good as a nod to a blind mule. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 10:14:18 AM
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Among many, many other things, bringing the packs in meaningful amount with him would have slowed Benteen down. Bringing the packs through hostiles ran the risk of losing the packs to them, etc.
DC
Just to back track to the above posted by your good self at the beginning of this discussion.
I think Benteen displays a certain indifference to the packs.Kanipe arrives and relates how the Indians are up ahead and how the packs are needed.Other than directing Kanipe back to the pack train, Benteen does not speed up his return to the main unit.Benteen must have realised that the regiment was in, or about to go into action.
Martin now arrives with a somewhat more urgent message for Benteen and the pack train.He now has confirmation that things are hotting up and his battalion and the packs are needed.He does nothing about the packs.In other words the second message never got to McDougal.Could McDougal have made better progress if the second message had been relayed to him?I think this is a serious fault on Benteens part.
He joins Reno and sees the state of his defeated command.Still he does nothing about the packs.It is in fact Reno who sends Hare back to the train to get ammo.
It seems to me that Benteen's attitude appears at best halfhearted.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 11:07:58 AM
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Disagree.
Kanipe had no orders for Benteen. His orders apparently originated with Tom Custer - not the General - and were for the train only. It was recalled later by Kanipe that Tom Custer told him 'if you see Benteen' tell him to hurry. Kanipe said the train was ordered to go by the shortest distance to Custer 'overland' and drop boxes if need be. And hurry. McDougall didn't do so. No other officer has ever asked why. Perhaps he did what he could with the damned mules.
Perhaps, like so much of Kanipe's later recollection, it was embellished or false. Not lying, just not accurately recalled. For surely if that was the order, the train did not obey, the most flagrant and obvious dereliction that day.
If from Tom Custer, did Cooke and Custer know? Or was Tom just assuming it was a good idea? Would they actually, given that they'd sent riders back to retrieve boxes dropped by the train the night before, suggest carelessness in letting ammo fall into the hands of the enemy? Was he kissing Reno off at that point? All ammo to ME!
Martin arrived ten to fifteen minutes after Kanipe. What is gained sending Martin back when he has no info for the train not already and recently given? Return to your company, we can use you.
Also, the concept of hurrying needs to be dwelt upon. There are numerous cases of horses - all with Custer and Reno - giving out in the heat. Rushing the barely watered mules across vicious ground to a point unknown would get what percentage where in what time? Do we sequentially keep dividing the train command to get the various clumps of mules up or just leave them? That's very stupid, if so. Custer hadn't fired a shot and he wants all the ammo? Eh?
Arriving with exhausted horses and mules would prevent an immediate offensive, anyway. None of this makes a whole lot of sense, when you stop to think about it.
Certainly, the note hints at no panic, especially when combined with the oral exhortations of Kanipe and Martin, who was in an adjacent reality if he said the things claimed to Benteen and the others, given what he also said he'd seen. How a retreating Reno and a Custer under attack by 'ambush' translates into the Indians running deserves consideration.
Or, you know, if there were language issues..... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 3:10:10 PM
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Kanipe had no orders for Benteen. His orders apparently originated with Tom Custer - not the General
I don't buy this.Not even Tom Custer would take upon himself to issue orders relating to the reserve ammo to McDougal an officer of equal rank.[Was Kanipe from Tom Custers company?]
It's true the order was not for Benteen but here he was returning from his scout not knowing the situation up ahead and Kanipe arrives and explains that the command is going into action and that the pack train is needed.Benteen is now in possession of information that a loyal and dare I say dynamic officer would have acted upon.Benteen displays no urgency.
For surely if that was the order, the train did not obey, the most flagrant and obvious dereliction that day.
How can Tom Custer order McDougal to do anything?
Was he kissing Reno off at that point? All ammo to ME!
Of course he was.It was the Custer show you know,and to hell with Reno.
Martin arrived ten to fifteen minutes after Kanipe. What is gained sending Martin back when he has no info for the train not already and recently given? Return to your company, we can use you.This is not for Benteen to decide.How does he know what state the train is in,or if it could increase it's speed.Not sending this message back to McDougal is an appalling failure.
Also, the concept of hurrying needs to be dwelt upon. There are numerous cases of horses - all with Custer and Reno - giving out in the heat. Rushing the barely watered mules across vicious ground to a point unknown would get what percentage where in what time?
How many of Custers horses gave out 10?=5%.I think Custer would have swopped a casualty rate of 100% of his command for a rate of 5% of his mules.
Arriving with exhausted horses and mules would prevent an immediate offensive, anyway. None of this makes a whole lot of sense, when you stop to think about it.
Once again many of the 7th would have settled for an immediate defence.
Certainly, the note hints at no panic, especially when combined with the oral exhortations of Kanipe and Martin,
The note and the exhortations of Kanipe and Martin make it clear that the command are going into serious action and a loyal dynamic officer would have done exactly the same as if it was a call for help.
Regards
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 5:07:30 PM
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By paragraph, sorta:
Tom Custer had already brought the regiment forward at Crow's Nest, and Gerard says Custer berated him. He was the Bro, and who was anyone to argue? I'm not saying it's by the book, or even true, but if you sub the name Biff Stone for Tom Custer in all the testimony, how far into studying the thing would you get before asking 'who the hell is this guy ordering people around and they obey him?' I fear all this prissy insistence on procedure and correct chain of command in the 7th is rather silly, because it clearly wasn't followed, and Tom Custer held a position and authority above his rank.
He cannot, but the order is in his brother's name.
Okay.
Of course it's for Benteen to decide. In any case, the orders he got regarding the train were contradictory: hurry AND bring the train. He makes a rational decision to speed up assuming the train is pumpin as best it can behind him. SHould he wait for the train to catch up per his 'orders?' Further, Kanipe says he went straight to the pack train and THEN returned to Benteen. Benteen says Kanipe only asked where the train was and went to it and then returned with the orders.
Now think about that. Walking and trotting (as Custer did) is a lot easier than hauling ass (literally) to who knows where. We don't know how many of Custer's horses gave out, but some, and we just know none of Benteen's did, and some of Reno's did climbing the bluffs (no condemnation there). The duration between when Custer sent Martin and when Benteen was potentially able to strictly adhere was a long time in which a lot happened, and you're assuming the mules' arrival of more ammo would have meant anything. They didn't run out of ammo.
Once the cavalry was inert unprotected so close to such a camp, they were dead. You had one (1) chance: a successful attack. Once you have significant wounded you're stuck. Reno had much better ground and protection.
Benteen DID obey the order from Martin: he went to a trot and then gallop with guns drawn. (Compare this to Custer's promised support. It consisted of a photo op wave and a WALK along the ridge. Yet, we condemn Benteen for not hurrying at a gallop...) He came to Reno and the situation became different, and he could see the land north. After the 'volleys' the assumption was held - even by Godfrey - that Custer had fought and moved on to Terry, leaving them. It was hard wired into them based on their experience with the guy. It's always been assumed that Weir's histrionics, if true, were out of his concern for Custer's safety. It's just as possible he was concerned he wouldn't be part of the winning sweep, or that Custer would be all annoyed that they hadn't ridden to wherever he was and they'd be written up. In that regard, Benteen's rational decisions to stay put were rather gutsy, since he knew his head would be on a stick. I suspect a lot of this stuff was later spun by the participants to meet current needs in future years. I doubt anyone thought Custer took his wounded with him on his way to Terry, either, by the way.
The note and the exhortations leave the impression the battle is over, actually. The Indians are running. Benteen could not have, and should not have, gone faster than he did even if it were a call for help. You have to arrive as a unit able to act as a unit, not run wide open to unknown destination at unknown distance. Godfrey said that after KANIPE's exhortations they assumed the battle was over and the village captured. Martin punctuated that assumption.
Benteen did good. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 8:41:22 PM
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Again with the "Tom Custer ordered the regiment forward" nonsense...
And its my understanding that George Custer ordered Tom to send one of his sergeants back to the train, and Knipe/Kanipe was chosen. And he was only chosen because Sgt. Bobo (I believe) was lagging behind with a played-out horse. A commanding officer orders a company commander to send one of his men as a messenger. And show me where, in any account from Knipe/Kanipe, that the message he carried didn't come from George Custer through Tom Custer.
quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Nepotism, as your "proof" or possible cause, is not a very strong argument. So you say TWC ordered the regiment to move forward while Custer was at the Crow's Nest? Pg. 169 of Gray's Centennial Campaign states that "no one seemed to know who had ordered this march; Gerard testified that Custer had left orders for the command to remain in place until his return." Gray's other book, Custer's Last Campaign, pg. 235-236, says Godfrey mentioned in his 1892 narrative that Custer personally rode to several companies, informing them of his plans to march at 8:00 am. He then went to the Crow's Nest, and, according to Gray, the command moved out around 8:45 am. Gerard, on the same pages of Gray's book, was said to have stated that either TWC or Lt. Cooke asked if the command was to follow Custer. His reply was that they were to remain where they were until he (Custer) came back. In the same book, Varnum, who was with Custer at the Crow's Nest, that "Tom Custer and Calhoun came up to us and Gen. Custer was angry at their leaving the column and order them back (pg. 240-241)." Gerard told Elizabeth Custer (pg. 241) that Custer asked TWC "who in the devil ordered these troops forward?" Considering Reno and Benteen, 2nd and 3rd in command, claiming that they had not ordered this advance (pg. 236), where's the proof that Tom Custer is responsible for bringing the regiment up? Its just as possible (if not moreso) that the 8 am march order, given by Custer to several companies if not all of them, was observed, despite Custer telling TWC and/or Lt. Cooke otherwise, upon their asking. And when several companies started moving in Custer's absence, they all did. If Reno and Benteen say they didn't order it (and they could have lied, though to what end?), then who did? Why would Tom Custer or Lt. Cooke bring the regiment forward when Gerard stated Custer personally told them not to? It appears that the anger Custer displayed at Tom leaving the regiment, coupled with his asking TWC about who ordered the command forward have been combined into Custer being mad at his brother for ordering the advance of the regiment. Its altoghether possible that Lt. Cooke was informed of Custer's not wanting the regiment to move, but was not aware of Custer's previous 8 am march order to some or all of the company commanders. And when they started moving, what then? Ignore Custer's verbal order because Lt. Cooke says Custer rescinded it? And in the same book, pg. 240, Edgerly wrote (on July 4, of presumably 1876, that "while Custer was away, Cooke, Tom Custer, Calhoun, Moylan and myself went down in a ravine and smoked a cigarette together." So how did Tom Custer order this advance, if Edgerly says he was in a ravine, smoking a cig? Gray seems to think Tom and Cooke then heard about the hardtack/Sioux incident on the backtrail, and they then left to inform Custer. Maybe then the column moved because they saw Cooke heading towards the Crow's Nest? But I see nothing from Gray, in either book, stating that ANYONE said TWC ordered an advance. Godfrey, in Graham's The Custer Myth, pg. 295, states that "A number of us were already grouped when Keogh came up and told of the incident of Sergeant Curtis and the lost pack. Tom Custer jumped up and said that he was going to report to the General." Now, I can't check every book I own, but that's several of them. And so far, NO mention of Tom Custer ordering the advance. Not from Benteen, Reno, Godfrey, Edgerly, Varnum, Gerard, etc.
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I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 9:05:23 PM
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"To the soldiers and officers of Major Reno's command, besieged for two days on the bluff, the whereabouts of Custer and his battalion would have been of great concern. That Custer and his men had fought the Indians was not a great mystery. Many soldiers and officers admitted later that they heard gunfire in the direction Custer had gone the afternoon of June 25, 1876. Major Reno himself said in his report of the battle, made just 10 days later:
'we heard firing in that direction and knew it could only be Custer.'
At his inquiry, however, Major Reno and Captain Benteen were to deny that gunfire was heard in the direction of Custer."
Robert Nightengale (Author)
Reno's Official Report, July 5, 1876
taken from the Annual Report of the Secretary of War, 1876-Pages 476-480
Forty-Fourth Congress, First Session:
"Still hearing nothing of Custer, and, with this re-enforcement, I moved down the river in the direction of the village, keeping on the bluffs. We heard firing in that direction and KNEW IT COULD ONLY BE CUSTER."
Reno Inquiry, Graham, page 221.
"I heard no firing from down river till after we moved out in that direction and then only a few scattering shots. I thought they were from THE VILLAGE. It did not IMPRESS me as coming from a general engagement. NOTHING that came to my attention on the 25th or 26th led me to suspect that Custer was destroyed."
Reno's memory conviently transformed his recollection from his certainty that Custer was engaged on July 5, to his certainty that he heard a few scattering shots he thought were coming from the village. DC/Largent I refer to you expertise on defining lies and liars; was this one?
Major Reno was the senior, commanding officer on the bluffs. In actuality, Benteen was, by default, the actual commander as the men appeared to have greater confidence in him. During the Inquiry , Benteen testified as to how "cool" Reno was during the engagement. This raises the assumption that Benteen and Reno were in close proximity to each other, else, how could he testify to Reno's "coolness." Also, would they not engage in emergency steps to be be taken to defend their position? In Reno's original report of July 5,(when he was certain that the firing he heard could only have been Custer) one can only assume that Benteen was near by. However, Benteen testified:
"The only firing I heard that I did not see, and which came from the direction of Custer had gone was the 15 or 20 shots that seemed to come from about the central part of the village, about the ford "B." The village was in 2 divisions. I have heard officers disputing about hearing volleys. I HEARD NO VOLLEYS."
Reno Inquiry, Graham, page 139
I have heard no reports that established that Benteen had hearing problems, yet he could not/did not hear what so many others did.
B.F. Churchill - "I heard four or five volleys."
Sgt. F.A. Culbertson - "We heard firing from down below. At first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy."
Lt. W.S. Edgerly- Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately, I heard firing and remarked it-heavy firing, by volleys."
The list goes on. My second question to the clone brothers is this, did Benteen lie or was the the host of other testimony lies? If you assume that Benteen and Reno were untruthful about the above information, one has to ask-what else were they untruthful about?
As one prosecutor said to a witness who gave two interpretations of the same incident: "Where you lying then, or, are you lying now?" |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 9:09:42 PM
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Sure. Scout Girard in Graham quotes Kanipe as quoting Tom that the order came from Custer. Girard was also the one that records Custer's complaint to his brother about bringing the regiment forward. If Girard tells the truth - and he's a great favorite with Custerphiles - Tom acted without Custer's orders at Crow's Nest only Kanipe's word that we have Tom's word that the order came from Custer. He obviously left the impression earlier that another order came from Custer, which was not true, one can only conclude. So, what's so wierd about him acting in this capacity? If Girard is to be believed.
Is he not? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 9:46:46 PM
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Wiggs, it's been established that people heard firing from down the river. Nobody's ever argued against it. Reno heard it as well, as did Benteen. They said they did not hear volleys. Varnum said it wasn't quite volleys. Again, you try to rehash an argument you've lost before when you try to equate volley with fire with shots.
Reno transformed what from what on July 5? And others thought firing was coming from the village as well as Reno. What's the big deal?
I've not heard Benteen had hearing problems either. But the ones who say they heard volleys were often sitting, facing north and listening. Benteen was apparently running around getting stuff organized. It's possible he didn't hear what Varnum didn't hear either: volley shooting.
Question about your last quote: is it supposed to be "(Were) you lying..." or "Where (were) you lying...?" If the former, let's use it in a sentence: Wiggs, were you lying when you posted misinformation early in this thread or when you denied you had done so? Or, both times?
You act as if the mere fact of there being firing demanded a move north. There was a lot to worry about where they were. Again: tell us who should have moved north and who should have stayed with wounded and packs and defend you decision. There's no way to divide that up to accomplish either goal, evidenced by the inability of you or anyone to give sure answers to how Benteen or Reno should have divided the grouping.
Neither the other officers nor Benteen nor Reno needed to be lying to have a difference of opinion or to have heard different things. You read enough battle reports, you know this.
That's not to say Benteen didn't fib. He could very well have been of the opinion the 7th couldn't beat anyone that day, and since nobody ever accused him of cowardice successfully, it's quite possible that his tale of not hearing the excessive firing others claimed was because he wanted to damp down the firebrands who'd rush off like Weir and not be able to protect their own force and have to retreat, much less rescue Custer who, as even Godfrey said, they all thought had had a battle and gone north.
But in fact, they did ride north, and it was a pretty pathetic group even with time to reorganize. If Benteen was trying to quell wannabe heroes or those who just wanted to get good writeups by Custer in the victory, he was correct in so doing. But no proof or possibility of it. He could have told the truth and not heard volleys.
In any case, you ought to be a more impressive figure to call people liars absent proof of the sort you've provided on this forum. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 11:54:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Sure. Scout Girard in Graham quotes Kanipe as quoting Tom that the order came from Custer. Girard was also the one that records Custer's complaint to his brother about bringing the regiment forward. If Girard tells the truth - and he's a great favorite with Custerphiles - Tom acted without Custer's orders at Crow's Nest only Kanipe's word that we have Tom's word that the order came from Custer. He obviously left the impression earlier that another order came from Custer, which was not true, one can only conclude. So, what's so wierd about him acting in this capacity? If Girard is to be believed.
Is he not?
That's one person. There are countless others in my quote that do not support your nepotistic view. Custer's regiment was nepotistic, that's not in doubt, but TWC did not order the regiment's movement, and there's no proof that he decided to send Kanipe/Knipe back with the message without the order coming down from the commanding officer. The only thing you have is the opinion that Girard/Gerard is unreliable, and that Kanipe/Knipe's account of his message order came to Graham via Girard/Gerard. Well, you certainly proved TWC went above his brother by deciding to send a messenger with a message he alone dictated.
On the other hand, we have Varnum attesting to Custer's anger at TWC and Calhoun for leaving the column. Yup, sounds like Tom Custer was leading the regiment on its march. Basically, you assume Tom Custer ordered the regiment to march in his brother's absence. Present ONE solitary account (with the book/publication and page number) that says Tom Custer did this. Because I can't find one, not even from Gray. And he spent, what, 25 years on a work about Custer's movements? And he has several accounts as to the move while Custer was at the Crow's Nest.
Interesting that you go after Wiggs for making things up and changing accounts, yet you repeatedly harp about Tom Custer going above his rank by moving the regiment. That's about as made up as you can get. If Tom Custer did move it forward, someone probably would have mentioned it. But I can't find one witness who said it happened that way.
I see your logic:
Facts:
Custer was nepotistic.
Tom Custer rode away from the regiment.
Custer was pissed.
The regiment moved.
No officers seemed to know why.
Conclusion:
Tom Custer ordered the move of the regiment. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 10:07:48 AM
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What I said was quite different, Crab. I said that Girard said Custer reprimanded his brother when the regiment was brought forward at the Crow's Nest. It was Tom who brought it forward, or apparently - according to Girard - Custer thought he had, for it was Tom he yelled at. I have no clue what you mean by Tom "rode away from the regiment."
Kanipe says Tom told him these were the General's orders, but Kanipe didn't hear any such orders, apparently. That doesn't 'prove', nor did I say it proved, that Custer didn't make the order.
I'm not making stuff up; it's there in Graham, page 251. It may not be true, but your argument isn't with me. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 11:08:50 AM
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| Gone fishin.Regards to all. |
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 11:10:03 AM
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Oncer upon a time, Fred Chiventone told me that Custer had left orders for the regiment to be moved out at 8 a.m. He didn't negate those orders when he rode away to Crow's Nest. So the regiment came up.
Alfuso
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
What I said was quite different, Crab. I said that Girard said Custer reprimanded his brother when the regiment was brought forward at the Crow's Nest. It was Tom who brought it forward, or apparently - according to Girard - Custer thought he had, for it was Tom he yelled at. I have no clue what you mean by Tom "rode away from the regiment."
Kanipe says Tom told him these were the General's orders, but Kanipe didn't hear any such orders, apparently. That doesn't 'prove', nor did I say it proved, that Custer didn't make the order.
I'm not making stuff up; it's there in Graham, page 251. It may not be true, but your argument isn't with me.
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Deny Everything
Prepare to Panic |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 11:21:50 AM
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| We've been through this. Custer left word that the regiment was to be ready to go at 8, not go at 8. If I rightly recall, Benteen and Reno assumed the order had come when Tom moved them out. If Girard is correct, it hadn't. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 2:37:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Where does this/those idiot(s) think that I received my information from?
That's exactly what I've been wanting to know. You won't answer questions about sources, you've been shown to plagiarize and lie. When asked to back up your claims, you respond only with silence or invective. Where are the monitors indeed.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 2:46:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
DC and I had a lenghty discussion on long range firingbut there was no contribution from 69.
Because I had no opinion on it; I didn't have anything worthwhile to say, and I knew almost nothing about the Boers. I can't pontificate like Joseph Wiggs and just make up everything as I go along.
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Likewise I had a lenghty exchange with 69 on Cooke but no contribution from DC.
Or from anybody else, if I recall aright. At any rate, I know we've disputed at times in the past. I think the last one was about the village scattering, though I think that was partially due to my misunderstanding about what he was arguing. One of my biggest pet peeves, which maybe everyone has noticed, is with those who make assumptions based on weak or invalid evidence --- and I don't get much into it with posters like Dark Cloud, and Crab, or Bhist, who generally don't.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 3:27:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
I think Benteen displays a certain indifference to the packs.Kanipe arrives and relates how the Indians are up ahead and how the packs are needed.Other than directing Kanipe back to the pack train, Benteen does not speed up his return to the main unit.Benteen must have realised that the regiment was in, or about to go into action.
Martin now arrives with a somewhat more urgent message for Benteen and the pack train.He now has confirmation that things are hotting up and his battalion and the packs are needed.He does nothing about the packs.In other words the second message never got to McDougal.Could McDougal have made better progress if the second message had been relayed to him?I think this is a serious fault on Benteens part.
I agree it's a lapse in judgment on Benteen's part; after he got Martin's message, he probably should have passed it along to McDougall. If he had, though, I don't think it would have made any difference in the battle, and his reasoning (that McDougall had already been told to speed up by Kanipe, and that it made little sense to tell him to speed up more, since he was probably already going as fast as he was able to) seems defensible to me. So no, I don't think it was a serious fault on Benteen's part. A minor one maybe.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 9:15:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
What I said was quite different, Crab. I said that Girard said Custer reprimanded his brother when the regiment was brought forward at the Crow's Nest. It was Tom who brought it forward, or apparently - according to Girard - Custer thought he had, for it was Tom he yelled at. I have no clue what you mean by Tom "rode away from the regiment."
Kanipe says Tom told him these were the General's orders, but Kanipe didn't hear any such orders, apparently. That doesn't 'prove', nor did I say it proved, that Custer didn't make the order.
I'm not making stuff up; it's there in Graham, page 251. It may not be true, but your argument isn't with me.
Others stated Tom Custer rode away from the column with Calhoun, and arrived to an angry Custer because they had left the column. Gerard/Girard saw TWC ahead of the advancing regiment, and stated George Custer as asking Tom who ordered these troops forward. Gerard/Girard's account does not say TWC ordered the troops forward, nor does GAC's questions prove he did. So I think we can lay to rest the "Tom Custer usurped his authority and moved the regiment forward. TWC is said to have ridden to Custer to inform him of the lost hardtack/supplies incident. It may have been that Custer thought TWC ordered the troops forward, but Gerard/Girard does not mention the confirmation of this. Nor does anyone else.
And explain to me why Tom Custer would order a sergeant back to hurry the packtrain, if not already told to do so. In other words, why would he do this, unless Custer told him to?
And let's say Tom Custer did order a man back to the packtrain to speed it up, without an order from above. It was either Gray or Fox who stated cavalry company commanders could do as they wished. They commanded roughly 50 men, and while taking orders from above, they seemed to have an idea that they had leeway. Take a look at Weir, for example. And Benteen seemed to believe this as well. I just wish I could remember what book this was mentioned in, as its not my own original thought.
Oh, and you might want to check out the account just before Gerard/Girard's in The Custer Myth. Page 249, about 2/3s down the first column.
"Just then the captain told me to go back and find McDougall and the pack train and deliver to them orders that had just been issued by General Custer."
Maybe TWC just told him his brother was the source of these orders. But Kanipe/Knipe said before that:
"I was riding close to Sgt. Finkle (Finckle). We were both close to Capt. Tom Custer. Finkle hollered at me that he couldn't make it, his horse was giving out. I answered back: "Come on Finkle, if you can." He dropped back a bit."
So Kanipe/Knipe says he was riding close to Tom Custer, and that the orders came from GAC. Either he assumed it, was told that, or saw and heard it with his own eyes and ears. If he didn't actually hear Custer dictate orders to TWC, surely Tom Custer left his company, conferred with GAC and came back with orders for Kanipe/Knipe. He said the order came from Custer. And while its possible it was not true, its all we have. An english-speaking man telling a newspaper his account.
So again, can we stop saying TWC did this and that, superseding his authority? The two examples offered have no supporting evidence, let alone clear-cut evidence to begin with. Just assumptions of what Gerard/Girard said, which in no way point to TWC leading the regiment forward. Custer didn't seem to think TWC moved it forward, since he asked him who ordered the regiment to do so, and since Tom Custer seemed to arrive well before the regiment. Not to mention the reason was supposedly to tell Custer of the lost packs incident. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 9:21:45 PM
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Two things I did forget to mention. Kanipe/Knipe's verbal orders were essentially the same as Martin/Martini's written orders. Both were sent close together in terms of time, and one was sent to the packtrain, one was sent to Benteen. Another clue as to where the order came from.
Also, Kanipe/Knipe says the last thing he heard from Custer was him telling soldiers with excited mounts to hold their horses, essentially that there were enough Indians to go around (The Custer Myth, also pg. 249). If he heard that, chances are he heard Custer talking to TWC before he relayed them to Kanipe/Knipe. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 10:14:35 PM
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Well, no. On page 179 of Graham, Benteen wrote that the command's late march ended with no orders. He slept till morning, had breakfast, the regiment moved forward, no orders, and stopped, no orders. Then it was joined by Custer coming down from the CN. The unordered, 8AM movement was apparently motivated by the bread box incident. When the bread box incident occured, Tom - not an orderly, not the officer whose men reported it, Tom - rode off to tell his brother. During this period the regiment moved foward, without Benteen getting orders to do so. What to make of this? No tales of Reno being chewed out, or anyone except Tom receiving the query. No advantage to Benteen in the story.
Kanipe is vague about space and time, and if he was close enough to have heard Custer give the order he'd have said so, I'd guess.
Later, Tom might order the train brought forward if he thought that was what the General, busy, would want. It would explain - as you point out - the two quite similar but not exact orders being sent out so close together. Which is odd, what? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Benteen's order
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