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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
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 Posted - July 15 2004 : 12:10:42 AM
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Martin/Martini's order was written, therefore it was shorter. You can talk faster than you can write. But that doesn't matter, as Kanipe/Knipe said TWC gave him orders from Custer. And he also said he heard Custer addressing those in his command as he rode off. Martin/Martini was apparently told the message by Custer, then Lt. Cooke gave him a written copy. So that brings us back to Kanipe/Knipe. Being the last intelligible, English-as-a-first-language survivor of Custer's command, he says Custer gave TWC a message to send via a Company C messenger. And he knew Finkle was going to be the messenger, except he was lagging behind. Now, this may have been due to seniority and/or rank, or it may have been that TWC let it be known initially wanted to send Finkel, but he wasn't around. Or its possible Kanipe/Knipe heard Custer order Tom Custer to send a Sgt., and Tom said he would send Finkle. Because Finkle was one of six sergeants, not counting 1st Sgt. Bobo. So how did Kanipe/Knipe know Finkle was the original choice?
Benteen didn't know about the 8 am order? So he says. He probably was telling the truth, he may not have been told. But Godfrey, who is probably one of the best sources, says Custer went to several companies and informed them of the 8 am march order. Then he left for the Crow's Nest. It appears not everyone knew of it, so its possible Benteen wasn't told. And its also possible either Custer cut his personal company-to-company orders short to head to the Crow's Nest, or that he intended on returning before the move was to take place. Who knows. But Godfrey says Custer had an 8 am movement order. And Gray determined that the command moved at 8:45 am. Its also possible that 8 am came and went, the company commanders who knew of the order were unsure what to do, and after a while, decided to move forward. Maybe they saw Custer's party coming back, and figured they should get moving towards him.
As for the reason why Custer yelled at Tom Custer, and no one else, its clear. He yelled at him because he left the column and then asked who moved the regiment forward. That no one else was asked this or yelled at can be attributed to the fact that it seems Tom Custer's news changed Custer's plans. He probably didn't care, as it was advantageous, considering the new plan to attack quickly. Plus, it wasn't time to seek out the culprit when he was now seeking to attack that day. Why waste time trying to find out something that's not important and would slightly delay the new plans?
Or, maybe Custer remembered he had told some companies of his 8 am movement order, and dropped it.
Kanipe/Knipe has to say "I heard" and "I saw"? He's giving an account. He said "Just then the captain told me to go back and find McDougall and the pack train and deliver to them orders that had just been issued by General Custer." Though he did say he "I remember the last words that I heard General Custer say...", but that's a bit different. Some statements need clarifying words, some don't. Tom Custer told me; I heard General Custer, etc. But none of it really matters, as the wording from Kanipe/Knipe is pretty clear. "Orders just issued by General Custer" he told the newspaper. Apparently he knew Custer had ordered this, and he thought Finkle was going to be the bearer of this message. Sounds to me like he was likely privy to more than just what TWC told him.
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prolar
Major
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Posted - July 15 2004 : 05:48:54 AM
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| A well written, well reasoned post as yours usually are, El Crab. Do you buy the idea that Tom was serving as aide de camp to GAC this campaign? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 10:13:25 AM
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Crab,
Kanipe's piece in Graham was obtained in 1924, which is 48 years after the battle. Considering how many other errors there are in there, not surprisingly, it's sort of odd to assume this is an accurate recollection after all that time of other people's stories. I don't have any earlier testimony of his available where I am.
Despite Prolar's glowing tribute, what is the basis for saying written orders are "therefore" shorter than oral other than wishful thinking? In fact, since Cooke repeated a phrase of bringing packs, it could well have been longer. Speed is not length or depth.
Your suppositions make as much sense, or more, as mine, and I cannot argue with them, but you have to ask yourself with all these sergeants the two couriers sent were Kanipe and Martin. That would suggest either Custer wasn't worried particularly or VERY worried knowing he'd need the non-com's. Or that the whole sergeant thing wasn't a considered issue at all and they sent the nearest bozo available.
You keep saying march order without answering the query: was it to be ready to go at 8 or go at 8? What does Reno say about all this? I recall he wasn't told either.
If Custer remembered he'd told 'some' and not all companies to move, what does this say about Custer, and how do your mesh his concerns with Girard's recall? If we are to believe your theory, Tom deduced that the breadbox incident had revealed the cavalry and it didn't matter anymore and he, on his own, 'left' the regiment to visit brother and inform him. Whatever Custer decided at that point was irrelevant, because with the regiment forward, out of cover, they had to move.
And move slowly. If they're worried about the Indians being alerted by the ones they've seen watching them, and assuming a pony with fearful rider would haul butt across ground to the village twenty miles away, wouldn't the alerted village pack and move or unite and attack? The 7th, push having come to shove, didn't seem to think so despite the fears of the Indians 'getting away.' It's always struck me as cognitive dissonance to scream "We've been discovered! We have to attack NOW!!!" and then plod along for the next six hours. Of course, the Indians didn't do squat either, so it's all very strange.
It's hard to tell about all this because half the guys don't distinguish between the two halts east of the divide or can't recall, and the ones that do give conflicting times. In short, this is pretty convincing testimony to an exhausted command and not a very organized one. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 3:10:55 PM
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| DC: It wasn't meant as a glowing tribute, just a statement of fact. I have said the same about your posts, though I think you sometimes go overboard to be arguementry. I'm sure El Crab will speak for himself, but I have a couple of points. Kanipe was a sargeant.Maybe his memory had failed or he decided the pack train was a safer place and invented the order, but there is no evidence of that. I think TC was serving as GAC's aide. It was his responsibility to get pertinent information to his commander.As for Benteen and Reno not being posted on the move, I think both of them lied at every opportunity to make Custer look bad. I admit to bias. Benteen later claimed that his Co was in such a state of readiness that he didn't need to check to report it ready. As to Martin having such poor command of English, it was his job to understand commands and repeat them. If he was unable to to do this , why did Benteen assign him to Custer as an orderly onn this critical day? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 4:26:15 PM
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Prolar,
Kanipe was a sergeant. I'd forgotten that. Tell no one or I'll die of shame. Especially Crab, he'll never let me forget it.
But I'm not suggesting Kanipe fabricated the order, I'm saying HE said that TOM said that CUSTER said do this, and if he'd heard Custer tell Tom he'd have said so. I also don't understand his oral descriptions of events to Benteen's command.
I'm also saying I can easily believe Tom on his own would anticipate his brother and order up the train. I also think he brought the regiment forward (nobody seems to recall who else did, and - if Reno - someone surely would recall that)as he rode to his brother at the CN.
TC served as Custer's aide pretty much always and regardless of his official capacity. My general contention is that the 7th had an official command structure and an actual one, unavoidable with family by blood and marriage scattered through the ranks. As I say, if you sub another name for Tom's in these tales and then try to explain his presence above and beyond all the other company commanders, it looks strange.
And to kick the biodegrading horse some more, I think if Custer were hurt, the official would defer to the actual, and that this would explain a defensive battle in a ridiculously bad position.
Benteen did claim his company was in such a state of readiness he didn't have to check. Why is that either a lie or bad? You'd like to think any company commander could say the same, since each official halt started a set of procedures. He probably had H company in good shape, anyway, given its performance on Reno Hill. And in any case, it was true, for Custer saw no flaw in the company's readiness, did he? There they were, ready to go. Did anyone, even Godfrey? And, in fact, Custer had to tell it to slow down as they started down.
I don't know why Benteen assigned Martin to Custer, perhaps it was his turn, perhaps Benteen didn't want him around. In any case, Martin obviously could not speak English very well even in 1879 by his own admission. People with hearty personalities can leave the impression they're understanding stuff they don't, and maybe that was Martini. But this does not explain Martin's fabrications to Benteen's group upon return (Indians running), reflecting neither what he said he says he was told (hurry) nor what he said later he'd seen (Reno in trees, Custer ambushed).
This, however, is not conspiracy but a common occurence in what Connell called the omnium gatherum of the US Army. He'd been with the 7th long enough and he'd reported to Custer early enough that if anyone saw a problem, nobody said anything during the hours when an exchange could be made. In any case, Custer or Cooke could have sent someone else. Further, the note signifys no alarm anyway. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 7:50:29 PM
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Well, I'll again mention Kanipe/Knipe did say Custer issued the order that Tom Custer gave him. Why does he have to say "I heard Custer say this" in order to believe that he, in fact, heard the order from Custer himself delivered to his captain? His account says the order and message he was given came from Custer, with the word being "issued". I think it again brings up the coincidence that Kanipe/Knipe was somehow aware that he was being sent back instead of Finkle, and how would he determine this? We must examine that. What were the possibilities? Rank? Or maybe proximity? Think of it this way. Custer approaches his brother, orders him to send a non-com officer to the packtrain. Kanipe/Knipe was riding with Finkle and said he was near his captain, when Finkle's horse lagged behind. Therefore, he was close to TWC while Finkle had now dropped back. So unless Kanipe/Knipe forgot to mention why he knew Finkle's absence made him the next in line to carry a message, we must offer ideas. And barring seniority, it appears it was by proximity. Closest sergeant to TWC was going to take the message back to the train. But despite the lack of "I heard" in Kanipe/Knipe's statement, we should consider that Kanipe/Knipe heard the order from Custer himself. Or that Custer talked to TWC in view of Kanipe/Knipe, before he was told to go back. I think his mentioning that the order was issued by Custer himself says enough. If he didn't know Custer had given the order to his captain, why mention it? His wording leaves little doubt.
"Just then the captain told me to go back and find McDougall and the pack train and deliver to them orders that had just been issued by General Custer."
Reading that, it is possible that he just assumed Custer was the source of the order. But I think we can agree its more probable he knew Custer issued the order that came to him. I don't think he has to say "I heard General Custer" to believe he knew General Custer issued the original order.
DC: You forgot Kanipe/Knipe was a sergeant, I won't hold that against you. It is neither here nor there, and you yourself admit the little details of the fight don't interest you much. I myself soak this stuff up like a sponge, though its not on purpose. Its just how the brain I got works. I rarely turn to a book except to verify what I'm typing. And even then, its usually not needed. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 7:58:42 PM
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One other thing, at least you now say "I think TC ordered the regiment forward" or something to that nature. That's not the same as saying he did, in fact, do it. Which is all that I've really ever seen before. Theories are one thing, and they are certainly the backbone of the Custer battle. But to say it as if its a fact is not. I often feel I overuse the words "think" and "probably" and "likely", etc. I don't want to give the impression that my opinion or theory is fact.
And we disagree on the Kanipe/Knipe orders. He said General Custer issued the order, which to me is closer to "I heard..." than "Tom Custer said Custer said...". On the other side of the coin, if Tom Custer sent him back and Kanipe/Knipe didn't hear or witness a conference by Custer and his brother before the order was given, his account probably would have just said "...and my captain sent me back with an order for the train." He added that General Custer issued the order, so I think its more likely that he knew this for a fact than just took Tom's word for it. He was close enough to hear Custer talking to soldiers whose mounts were antsy as he departed, so chances are he was close enough to witness Tom and his brother talking. He did also say he rode near TWC, and Custer probably came to TWC rather than vice versa. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 9:48:53 PM
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I don't; I think Tom spoke for his brother a fair amount. If TWC didn't wave the regiment forward (he had reason and opportunity riding up to CN), who did? Cooke wouldn't dare. Reno and Benteen were not with the first units moving, they stated, and nobody contradicts and says they were, which is not believable if not true. You really think a anyone other than TWC moving the regiment against Custer's wishes before a battle (the Girard testimony)would have gone unremarked, valid explanation or not?
As to Kanipe, we're establishing that TWC said that Custer said; NOT that Kanipe heard Custer say. The quote strongly suggests that TWC, rather than receiving a extrasensory message and turning to Kanipe close to him, returned from a jaunt either with Custer or from one away from Kanipe. If Kanipe had heard Custer say it, he'd phrase it that way. I'm sure he took TWC's word, why wouldn't he? I doubt Custer reported to TWC for various reasons. It might be logical and time saving for him to do so but it isn't Custer.
That Kanipe allegedly heard Custer restrain his men doesn't really change anything.
And why ten or fifteen minutes after Kanipe leaves is essentially the same message sent by Custer? Because of problems? Doesn't seem so at the time with all his options open. Because he didn't know about Kanipe? After all, when convenient, it has been suggested Custer forgot about his move order or to tell all the companies about rise times and halts. Just what is his 'headquarters' actually doing? For 210 men, some predicate a top heavy command headquarters of both Custers, Cooke, orderlies, trumpeters, surgeons, Reed, Kellog and it's remarkably and chronically uninformed, redundant, and failure prone.
You're very nice about the Sgt. Kanipe episode, which in lesser men than myself might be called 'an error' or possibly 'a monumentally stupid senior moment' or worse, which would be more accurate; I don't care about minutiae but I really should have thought about that. But keep it down. Don't want people to know. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 10:45:58 PM
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Regarding Finckle, it's possible that some companies had designated "orderly sergeants," just as they had color sergeants and quartermaster sergeants, and this may have been why Kanipe thought he was really only the 2nd choice to send. I don't know this though.
I doubt Kanipe heard Custer give the order. In his July 20, 1908 letter to Camp, Kanipe does say that Custer was "in my sight" the whole time, so he probably had good reason for thinking the orders came from Custer. But I have to be skeptical that he overheard them being given. He never mentions it, and since Kanipe left a lot of accounts, such an omission does seem significant to me. There's certainly no real evidence that he did, only circumstantial, which could be interpreted either way.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 11:20:41 PM
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I just don't see Kanipe/Knipe's account as being proof he took TWC's word for it. He says his order was issued by General Custer and given to him by Tom Custer. He doesn't say he heard Custer, and he doesn't say Tom Custer said it was Custer's order.
Where does Gerard/Girard's account say Tom Custer led the regiment forward? It says Custer asked TWC who moved the troops forward. Mentions nothing of TWC owning up to it, or even of an answer as to who did it. It also says Custer met TWC halfway between the Crow's Nest and the advancing regiment. And from the rest of the quote attributed to Custer, he didn't pause long enough to let TWC answer. Its basically "Who in the devil ordered these troops forward? My orders were to stay in camp all day, but that's changed now, so it doesn't really matter at this point." Read the account, it has no mention of TWC saying he ordered them forward, and it shows Custer didn't dwell on it very long. The quote is one long paragraph, which says to me that Custer said all of that or something close to it in a short period of time.
Do you believe its possible the regiment just followed TWC upon seeing him leave? But I will give you one point: its far more likely in my mind that TWC ordered the regiment forward than he sent Kanipe/Knipe back without being told to do so by GAC. But we have nothing but guesswork on both. Kanipe/Knipe says Custer issued the order TWC gave him. Why mention that if he only heard it from TWC? And if TWC told him GAC issued it, why not mention that? If we hold him accountable for not saying "I heard Custer" then can't we also, by the same logic, rule out TWC telling him Custer ordered him back? He doesn't say "my captain returned from the meeting with Custer and gave me the orders..." or "my captain sent me back, telling me that Custer ordered him to do so...". And why would TWC need to fabricate this? Company C was his company, Kanipe/Knipe was one of his sergeants. If his captain tells him to go back to the pack train with a message, a sergeant does so. Why would TWC have to tell his sergeant Custer ordered him?
Interestingly enough, I am reading Godfrey's Narrative in The Custer Myth. His version, on pages 137 and 138, said that Custer rode bareback to several companies, telling them to move forward at 8am. They moved from 8am to 10:45am, marching about 10 miles and halting in a ravine. They were given orders to remain quiet and Custer went to the Crow's Nest. While this was going on, the lost pack incident occurred, and TWC said he would go tell the General. So its possible the regiment had moved from where Custer had left it, and that's why he was upset? Not that they moved a great distance, just that they moved forward without his orders.
The only plausible situation I can see with TWC getting the regiment moving would be if he felt the pack incident warranted the regiment being assembled and advanced toward Custer. Basically, a move that would be advantageous if the info changed Custer's plan. But no account mentions Tom Custer doing anything but galloping off to meet Custer and tell him. Only that Custer asked TWC who moved it forward when TWC arrived. This does not prove or even offer evidence of TWC moving the regiment forward. Only that Custer asked him who ordered it. And we also have accounts of Custer being mad for TWC leaving the regiment.
It seems to me that the story is as follows: the regiment is in camp, and Custer wants to move them forward a few miles in the morning. He orders the regiment to move forward a few miles while he checks the view from the Crow's Nest. He plans on camping that day, marching and attacking at dawn. But he wants to see the village himself, and his mind hasn't been completely made up without doing so. The regiment moves forward, and stops in a ravine. The lost pack is found, as are the Indians going through it and running off. TWC sets off to tell Custer. Not sure what to make of the regiment moving, as there's nothing substantial to go on. But Custer was mad at TWC for leaving the regiment, possibly mad in general for the regiment having moved from when he last left it. But none of it really mattered, as Custer had changed his plan based on the possibility of being spotted. The one thing that isn't clear is who moved the regiment, or what exactly the movement entailed.
Its just a bit odd that Reno and Benteen, the two highest ranking subordinates didn't know who ordered the march. If TWC did it, you'd think they would have found out from someone and probably mentioned this. It doesn't reflect well on Custer if his brother did such a thing, going over Reno, who was undoubtedly in command when Custer was away. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2004 : 11:46:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
Regarding Finckle, it's possible that some companies had designated "orderly sergeants," just as they had color sergeants and quartermaster sergeants, and this may have been why Kanipe thought he was really only the 2nd choice to send. I don't know this though.
I doubt Kanipe heard Custer give the order. In his July 20, 1908 letter to Camp, Kanipe does say that Custer was "in my sight" the whole time, so he probably had good reason for thinking the orders came from Custer. But I have to be skeptical that he overheard them being given. He never mentions it, and since Kanipe left a lot of accounts, such an omission does seem significant to me. There's certainly no real evidence that he did, only circumstantial, which could be interpreted either way.
R. Larsen
What do you think about proximity? That's my choice as to why Kanipe/Knipe thought he was going instead of Finkle. Sergeants probably were intermixed in the ranks, and Company C had as many as five in the company at the time of the message. Camp lists six on the LBH roster, and one was with the packs already. So its likely that, since Kanipe/Knipe said he was riding very near to TWC, and he was near Finkle, that proximity was why they were option A and B. The other sergeants (Finley and Bobo, though Bobo might also have been near TWC) were probably spaced through the ranks, and I doubt 1st Sgt. Bobo would be sent back just before a fight. Custer did send back more important sergeants and other officers as the fight was drawing closer, but those were all to return to his battalion. Its doubtful a 1st Sgt. would be sent back just before engaging the enemy.
Anyone have any info on marching formation by company? Where the lieutenants and sergeants would be in a cavalry company in 4s and 2s?
Yes, it could be interpreted either way. But I think the account says enough, unless we can find another account that adds more to the story. Kanipe/Knipe said the order came from Custer through his captain. There really isn't much to go on as far as TWC ordering him back without Custer's permission. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2004 : 09:23:12 AM
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"he doesn't say Tom Custer said it was Custer's order." Crab, that's exactly what he says. "Just then the captain told me to go back and find McDougall and the pack train and deliver to them orders that had just been issued by General Custer."
You're right, we have nothing but guesswork, but WHO DID bring the regiment forward? Are you now suggesting whoever was in the lead, without orders, started forward down the trail? That's a pretty poorly led regiment, if so. And I see nothing really wrong with TWC, knowing his brother, anticipating his wishes because he seems to be dead on with correctly assuming them. As we both say, it doesn't matter in the scheme of the day, but I feel it indicates that Tom Custer could act and had as a plenopotentiary, and it was accepted. For example, on what basis did Tom leave after his brother anyway? Who allowed that? Why not send the commander of the company whose guys found the box? It's not like Tom was involved with the incident more than anyone else. He just left on his own to tell his brother. That's operating outside the command structure, isn't it?
Again, if his name was Spike Brown and you read his name doing all these things as a mere company commander....
Guesswork, yes, but so's Tom being part of 'headquarters.' |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2004 : 12:43:52 PM
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Since it seems the 8am movement is not the one in question, maybe we should all rely less on memory. DC you are exactly right as to what Kanipe said. I don't see anything to indicate that he heard GAC give the order.
In Camp's interview with Girard in Custer in 76, Girard states that GAC told Tom not to move the command until further orders. This indicates to me that Tom was acting as Custer's aide. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2004 : 1:55:14 PM
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Confusion on those two halts, surely. Some think there was only one.
Whichever, the regiment moved forward at a place and time when Custer was returning to it from CN. He had not wanted it brought forward. Who brought it forward? Because Tom did something beyond rank and authority, it is postulated he was part of the 'headquarters' and he may have been, but that alone gave him no such authority. He wasn't needed as such, and his company surely needed him in battle.
But if he was an Aide or merely a Brother, we're wending our way to agreement that he probably brought the company forward absent any other candidate, since he had opportunity and reason.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2004 : 9:36:46 PM
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Godfrey was specific in stating that there were two halts. Martin and Herendeen seem to agree. I haven't re-read all accounts, but it seems evident there were two.
I am now inclined to agree with you that TC moved the regiment.I also now believe that he was serving as an Aide. I'm not saying that he was authorized to issue orders on his own. As for where he was most needed, that is not our call is it? The fact that his body was found on LSH with headquarters is pretty strong evidence that he was part of headquarters. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2004 : 10:15:48 PM
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So......were all the officers found on LSH part of headquarters? If location indicates Headquarters, explain.
What need was met by such a large 'headquarters' anyway, and especially TWC being in it? Wouldn't C have been better served with Tom with it? What actual point was there to him being part of headquarters throughout the day? We know they were missing some key officers anyway.
The very fact that these actions above his formal power and location of his body suggest to Custerphiles an exculpatory reason blessed with military role, I think it suggests that TWC acted outside the formal command structure with the blessing of Custer and acceptance by all. And reading of his frequent interactions with his brother on the Yellowstone and elsewhere reinforces it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2004 : 10:42:25 AM
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I think "Headquarters" is used too broadly by modern writers. I mean, when you see people claiming that Mark Kellogg was a part of "Headquarters," there's something pretty screwy.
Custer's headquarters would have been only the people who had to tag along with him, absent orders to the contrary. Cooke, the chief trumpeter, the three trumpeter-orderlies, the color sergeants, I guess Sharrow too. George B. Mask was also supposed to be on headquarters duty, but since Martin doesn't mention him as being one of the orderlies, perhaps his duty was only as Cooke's striker.
Kellogg, Bouyer, Boston and Reed were civilians and weren't in any sense aides, which is basically what a regiment's headquarters is: a collection of aides. They were probably free to rove around wherever they wanted to, so long as they didn't do anything crazy. Boston sure did. So did Bouyer, per Curley. Some count Lord and Callahan as "headquarters" too, but none of the surgeons with Reno tagged by his side, and Benteen says that Lord usually rode at the rear of the column during the march to the battlefield. I sure don't share Fox's confidence that he (and Callahan too!) probably died on Custer Hill. Lord could have fallen anywhere, literally anywhere. There is no spot more likely than any other.
R. Larsen
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prolar
Major
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Posted - July 17 2004 : 12:38:43 PM
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| Dark Cloud: I'm not fully convinced myself, so I won't be able to convince you, but I'll make the arguement. The only officers found on LSH who were not clearly part of headquarters were Capt. Custer, Capt Yates, Lt. Reily, and Lt. Smith. Yates and Reily were F Co officers and a large part of their Co was there with them. Lt. Smith was E CO and E had operated on or near LSH. There may have been a few C Co men who made it to LSH, but C didn't fight in the LSH vicinity as indicated by where their dead were found. So how do you explain TC's presence there? |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
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Posted - July 17 2004 : 8:38:02 PM
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I was under the impression that Dr. Lord was identified by some as being on LSH. It would make sense for Lord to ride in the rear of the column, a dead or wounded surgeon does your wounded any good. And if you're riding towards a fight, the front of the column is probably initially more dangerous than the tail.
Possible reasons for TWC's being found on LSH (which I've mentioned before):
He was one of the few (maybe 20?) who escaped the right wing's destruction and made it to LSH.
He was hit before the right wing was destroyed, and brought to LSH to be helped by Dr. Lord.
He was operating in some other facet than as Company C commander.
He was there for a meeting/officer's call when the right wing fell.
He was kept with Custer for further instructions for Keogh and Calhoun.
Custer was hit early, so he had went to LSH to be with him.
Company C is rather non-existent in the battle to me. Fox thinks they led a charge to Finley, but that testimony has usually been attributed to E Company in the Deep Ravine/South Skirmish Line area. And Curley claimed soldiers were dropped off at Finley, that the battalion was there first, then Custer's left wing proceeded north, apparently leaving C or a portion of it on Finley, L on Calhoun Hill and I and the rest of C in reserve.
Keogh apparently commanded the right wing, and L Company seemed to be fully engaged. So what officer does that leave to report to Custer? It appears that several sergeants (Finkle and Finley) were left commanding the C Company detachment on Finley, and Sgt. Bobo was in Keogh's area. Lt. Harrington was never found, but likely he was on Finley, unless my understanding of command is way off. Or he fled the field, as some people think. Either way, I think he probably was at Finley Ridge, commanding that detachment with several sergeants, protecting the right flank of L and the held horses of that company. And he either was killed and mutilated beyond recognition, or attempted flight when L was overran and the Finley position was now screwed. So Keogh was with his full I Company, seemingly in reserve, with part of C possibly in between his company and L, while the rest of them were on Finley. Calhoun couldn't report to Custer, as he was commanding all of L, and in a fight. Keogh wouldn't be going anywhere, as wing/battalion commander. And I doubt Captain Custer would be in charge of a detachment, which was described as small in several Indian accounts, on Finley. And with I Company in reserve with the other part of C nearby, perhaps Tom Custer was sent to inform his brother of the situation and receive additional orders? Its probably as likely as any other scenario. Though personally, I think his presence may have something to do with him being an officer, and when L fell and I and C were in the process of fleeing north, he was able to get away. He probably was mounted or very near his horse. But its all 100% guesswork, and he very well could have been there just because he wanted to be, or Custer wanted him to be. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - July 18 2004 : 12:43:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
I was under the impression that Dr. Lord was identified by some as being on LSH.
Yes, but not very credibly. Two officers with Gibbon (Thompson and Michaelis) were able to satisfy themselves that one body on the hill was Lord's, but no one else accepted this, and everyone else is adamant that Lord was never found. Besides, Michaelis and Thompson's reasons for identifying the body as Lord's are pretty weak. The "shapely hands" (whatever that means), the "cut of the beard" (was Lord finicky enough to keep his hair trimmed to style while on campaign?), and a blue shirt "such as he had worn," although Thompson acknowledged that it wasn't worn in the way Lord usually dressed: the body lacked an undershirt. Another problem is that Thompson said the body lay a few feet above Cooke's, which would place it in the knoll area where Custer lay --- the most examined part of the battlefield. And of all the people who looked that ground over, this pair were the only ones who thought it was Lord's body, and though I don't doubt they were sincere, I just don't believe them.
My bet is that Tom was just one of the few who survived the holocaust on Battle Ridge. I doubt he was wounded early and brought to Custer Hill to be treated; wouldn't it make more sense for the doctor to come to the wounded man?
I suppose the other scenarios are possible, but having Tom a survivor is the simplest and most sensible interpretation of what we know.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2004 : 1:59:42 PM
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Well, they lacked radios. So let's say Tom was dropped in the vicinity of the right wing and Lord was traveling with the left wing. Chances are, those who were wounded were brought to the doctor, not vice versa. And at least in the beginning, LSH was probably less pressured than the right wing's position. More than likely, someone would have taken TWC towards the doctor, since its possible the doctor would not have known he was hit. But I don't think he was hit. He was an officer, he was probably mounted or an orderly held his mount nearby. He probably wasn't on Finley except if the battalion was in that vicinity. Presumably, 1st Sgt. Bobo would be near him during a battle, so he was probably near I Company when L Company collapsed. The presence of several sergeants on Finley and Bobo at Keogh point to an evenly divided company in terms of officers. So its not likely that TWC commanded the Finley position, leaving it to his sergeants and/or Harrington (IMO). And when L fell, the survivors ran to Keogh, and TWC likely had a better chance of escape than your average trooper, given the likely close proximity of his mount (and the probability that his horse was superior to the average trooper's mount, which is also my conjecture).
Was Lord or DeWolf added to Custer's regiment? I thought one of them was Gibbon's surgeon, but was attached to Custer's 7th at some point. I don't believe it was Dr. Porter. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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prolar
Major
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Posted - July 18 2004 : 2:23:00 PM
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| Why is it so hard to believe that TWC was acting as an Aide to GAC and was part of headquarters? It would explain some of his actions and his presence on LSH. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2004 : 3:00:28 PM
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I'm not sure Bobo was always with I, in reserve or whatever. With him there's a wrinkle, since Kanipe thought he saw his horse dead in a ravine between Calhoun Hill and Keogh's place. The horse may have gotten there on his own in the confusion, or a part of C Company may have been stationed there, but it's quite possible Bobo had at one time been further south, at Finley. That might fit with Fox's theory of a C Company charge; I believe it was Curley who said that some men were left at Finley Ridge, after which a group of men (dismounted?) charged into Calhoun Coulee, where several of them were killed.
It was Porter who was added, replacing Dr. Elbert Clark. Lord was actually a commissioned officer, and had been assigned to the 7th Cavalry for at least a year or two, I believe. Porter and DeWolf were contract surgeons--- civilians, of no military rank. Gray did the best research on this in "Centennial Campaign".
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2004 : 3:13:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Why is it so hard to believe that TWC was acting as an Aide to GAC and was part of headquarters? It would explain some of his actions and his presence on LSH.
Because there's no real evidence Tom was acting as "aide-de-camp". Who needs a redundant aide when you have Cooke? And wasn't it Tom's job to lead C Company into battle? I don't mean duty or obligation, I mean JOB --- it's what he was being paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.
I don't know why Tom ended up on Last Stand Hill, but my guess is that the same thing which explains Edward Driscoll, Tom Tweed and John Parker being there, also explains Tom.
R. Larsen |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2004 : 5:58:39 PM
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There is real evidence that TWC left his Co and escaped to LSH? The only member of C troop to do so? The men you mention were not from C troop. TWC's job was to serve where his CO assigned him wasn't it ?
Is it so strange that if Reno with three co's had need of an Adjutant, That Custer with five co's and command of the entire Regiment might need both an Adjutant and an Aide? |
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Benteen's order
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