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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 08 2004 : 08:36:43 AM
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I among others have quoted this letter on this board. (page 343-4 Graham) Do you have typing class assignments you inflict on us? At least, type correctly. For example 'the' is not the same word as 'their'.
Given that this was written 34 years after the fact, what insight do you think it provides? Do you find it less or more compelling than the book of his journal, and did you notice any discrepancies between the two or between either and known fact? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 08 2004 : 10:10:13 PM
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What is your point? A man writes of a trumatic experience 34 years after the fact and, the only comment you can manage to come up with is, "Given that this was written 34 years after the fact, what insight do you think it provides?" When an individual experiences the death of his comrades, time is irrelevant.
Here's a perspective for you, men died! Wives became widows, children became orphans. A man who fought this battle, unlike you and I, voiced his true feelings. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2004 : 09:34:40 AM
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My point was stated and obvious. Typing in large sections of someone else's book is pretty silly, especially when that letter section has been referenced often before.
How did you know this was Taylor's true feelings? Maybe he was one of those people who suck up to those on the currently winning side, or from whom he might want a favor (like Goldin), or because he just likes to correspond with the famous? Godfrey's written efforts on the battle were out, and the Custerpiles were in the ascendent, and suddenly Taylor - out of nowhere - writes.
So what insight does it provide? And in your "studies", did you notice any discrepancy between what he tells Godfrey here and what was in his journal, published much later? Anything different in the journal to known fact?
And time, Wiggs, isn't irrelevent. Memories fade, and Reno may have rubbed Taylor wrong and here was a chance to kick him when he's down and dead. Or, it could be God's truth, but it's ridiculous to pretend this is anything. Based merely on the fact he was there, Goldin got a Congressional Medal by future fraud. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2004 : 1:35:51 PM
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| forgive me Dark, but if we followed literally what you stated, we could not discuss anymore then on the matter because the applicable rules to the story of Taylor are applicable to the other testimonies as well. Also all testimonies that you bring. Too much simple to invalidate only those of the others and not the proper. How did you know for exemple that Reno tell the truth? How did you know that Benteen did the same? How did you know they real feelings? Because they wrote them down? How did you know then that what they wrote was really their feelings? We could go so on until the end of the world! After all, if we want a first-hand testimony, there is the first official report written by Reno and by me already quoted, where he expressly speaks of the intense shoot-out and stated that "they knew could be no other than Custer". |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2004 : 3:12:37 PM
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I DON'T know their true feelings, and I DON'T know if they told the truth. Further, I don't care what their feelings were but suspect they were just that: theirs. I do care if they told the truth, or even the truth as they thought it.
What in the world does this sentence mean: "Too much simple to invalidate only those of the others and not the proper." ?? Frank will translate, won't you Frank? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2004 : 7:48:01 PM
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So basically, every account is useless, since there's a million reasons for lying, not recollecting the events correctly, bias, etc.
Why even come to a board to discuss something if you invalidate EVERY account? Even when you don't do that directly, the accounts by others can be invalidated for the same possibilities. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 12:42:19 AM
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What in the world does this sentence mean: "Too much simple to invalidate only those of the others and not the proper." ?? Frank will translate, won't you Frank?
Simply that: we must look at the other statements with the same open mind with which we look at our own. Sometimes, this, did'nt happened here.
You too, however, quoted sometimes, as a proof of which was your meaning, narratives or witnesses that came out much years after the battle. That's normal. I mean, I found nothing of strange or silly in what Joseph do.
A question: who is Frank? I avoid that, if is a joke, I don't understand it and, if he's a man, that I don't know him. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 08:34:40 AM
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See, Lorenzo, that is not what it says. Among other things, 'proper' is an adjective with nothing to modify. You use it as a noun, and it can only be a noun if you're talking about a section of a mass, which makes no sense on any level.
frankboddn wrote that your English is fine. On the downside, frankboddn uses emoticons. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 12:34:06 PM
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| Dark, that you don't understand a part of the message it doesn't implicate certain the fact that what I have expressed is wrong. Don't stray from the point. Certainly that I make some errors, But I believe that the message, the important part of it, it's however comprehensible. In fact El crab has answered to you immediately later of my post recalling the problem that I had just stated. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 12:48:30 PM
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I'm not entirely convinced you're not a put on, but either way it's just too painful, Lorenzo. I really do not think you understand what you're reading, expecially as regards time, and your writing doesn't say what you think it does. Too much work for me.
Still, it remains a good illustrative example of Giovanni Martini's contribution to the disaster. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 1:50:08 PM
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| Where do you get the patience from DC?You're a saint. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 2:23:08 PM
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I know. Just one of my many, numerous qualities of greatness that astound even me. Humility, wealth, perpetual youth, I truly am a Great Man. Why I talk to the likes of you is one of the drawbacks of Humility.
It was really annoying they pulled all the stops out for Theresa of Calcutta but I - me! - I have to go through the waiting period after my death. Like I'll ever die.
Still, St. Dark Cloud will intercede for a fee, so stay on my good side and remember which side of the wafer is buttered and vote for me, Bucko.
But sorry, you were awed by my Patience? I regret having burdened you further with examples of my Humility and Goodness. I'm sure you try very hard, in your way, to be as perfect as I am. Alas.....
In any case, can YOU make heads of tails out of what L says half the time? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 9:26:37 PM
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"Reno was a besotted, socially inept mediocrity, commanded little respect in the regiment and was the antithesis of the electric Custer in almost every way. Captain Benteen...a fearless combat leader and able but crotchety company commander, had despised and obstructed Custer from the day they had first met nearly ten years earlier."
Robert M. Utley |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 10:35:54 PM
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Electric doesn't mean competent or good. Mediocrity doesn't mean Reno is responsible above his station. Benteen had NOT obstructed Custer (how in the world could he?) absent expressing his own opinion publicly and supposedly inadvertently to contradict what even Utley would have to admit were either lies or faulty memory from Custer's pen. He certainly hated him, though.
Fred Dustin said Utley was a good writer but his early work contained "many errors." |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 06:56:35 AM
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Joe:
Don't believe he ever obstructed Custer, but another who "despised" him was Barnitz. And doubtless some others.
And Dark Cloud is right--not agreeing with a commander isn't exactly obstructing him. Wasn't it Benteen who said "Hadn't we better keep the regiment together? We're liable to need every man we've got"??
And I just took a look at the poll results--. Interesting to say the least. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 11:56:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
And I just took a look at the poll results--. Interesting to say the least.
It's interesting how 12 of 19 voters can claim to believe that Benteen violated a "legal order," but yet not one of them can come forward with an actual law that Benteen broke. If he acted illegally, why not?
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 3:11:29 PM
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On January 30, 1867, Benteen made a customary courtesy call to his commander,G.A.C. While no one can be sure what transpired that day, it is believed that Custer made some comments that offended Benteen. Many historians believe that Custer slighted the Civil War record of Benteen's mentor, James H. Wilson, but no one can be for sure.
However, some of Benteen's own comments throws some light on the subject:
"I had never seen Custer before joining at Fort Riley in '66. At my first formal call at his private quarters, he paraded his orders and books of the old Cav. Div. in the Cav. Corps, as if endeavoring to impress me with the magnitude and eminent sucess of his operations in it.
I remember his orders shown me said, No gun has ever been pointed at the Division but what they captured it," etc., etc.,
Well the impression made on me at that interview was not a favorable one. I had been on intimate personal relations with many great generals, and had heard of no such such bragging as was stuffed into me on that night."
We see from the above tnat Benteen was very much unimpressed with his first contact with G.A.C.
You are right Brent, I too do not belive that Benteen would obstruct Custer. That he would not is best exemplified by his own words:
"However, without parade, when he (Custer) did anything that was irregular to me, or infringed on "regulations," where I was concerned, I always went to him in "propria persona" and had the matter adjusted at once. Custer liked me for it, and I always surmised what I afterwards learned, de facto, that he wanted me badly as a friend; but I could not be, tho' I never fought him covertly."
Subsequent events only served to cause the relationship to deteriorate further and rapidly to a point of no return. The death of Maj. Elliot(Benteen's personal friend) is but one example. Another cause for Benteen's aversion for the General is founded in the death of his baby "Fran" who fell ill at Fort Rice. When Benteen received word of the illness, he immediately requested leave to the Fort to attend to his child. Custer promptly denied him this leave. For these reasons, and there are more, their relationship consistently bordered on conflagrant.
Thus, Custer when into battle with one commander who hated him and, the other an ineffectual "sot." Add 1,500 inflamed warriors to the mix and, one begins to visualize the monumental fix That he faced.
In order to "come Up' with a specific law that Benteen violated he would, naturally, have to face a Court Martial. This action could have been initiated by the officer alleging the charge of Malfeasance of Duty, had he not died. The charge could have been submitted later if corrobative evidence had been discovered at the Reno Inquiry which was not.
Volley firing by 100 or so men is quite distinctive from "scattering shots." The volume of the discharges are much greater in the former. Benteen, for his own personal reasons, chose not to respond. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 4:20:15 PM
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For those who wish to read where Wiggs stole much of this often literate posting: http://americanhistory.about.com/library/prm/blcuster4.htm. There are the three previous pages as well. 'Conflagrant' gave him away. This is called "plagiarism" and is against the law, passing off someone else's writing as his own. No doubt much of the rest was lifted as well, suggested by the capital letters within the sentences, a result of sloppy cut and paste. In any case, the baby's name was apparently 'Fan,' a diminutive of Fanny. Not Fran. If you're going to steal, at least do a good job. You said you were a police officer??
Now to this. Asked to explain what 'law' Benteen broke, Wiggs says: "In order to "come Up' with a specific law that Benteen violated he would, naturally, have to face a Court Martial." Not true, but reverse. In order for there to be a Court Martial there would have to be a charge, which would include what 'laws' were broken. "This action could have been initiated by the officer alleging the charge of Malfeasance of Duty, had he not died." Or anyone, Wiggs, like Weir or Reno or Terry. "The charge could have been submitted later if corrobative evidence had been discovered at the Reno Inquiry which was not." Or, you know, earlier. I think there's actually a statute of limitations on when charges can be brought in the military.
It would have been easier to say "I haven't the slightest idea about any of this" which would at least have novelty value. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 4:30:11 PM
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Okay Dark. Then I stop writing, as It's useless to talk if nobody can understand what I'm writing. But, just one thing. You can be all but not humble. You're not at all. First charateristic of the humble man is the respect for the "other" and the consideration for what the neighbor thinks, both quality of which you are totally unprovided. And, something that will astonish you, you don't know so much as you believe about this battle. You could answer sure that "nobody knows as much as they thought about this battle": yes is true, but there's a difference between us: we are conscious about it, you don't.
However, I will follow the forum as it is interesting for me, and that's all. At least you'll know that there is a silent reader. Was nice to know you everybody, guys. Garryowen. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 4:47:18 PM
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quote:
The death of Maj. Elliot(Benteen's personal friend) is but one example.
I've never seen anything from Benteen which shows that he and Elliott were more than fellow officers. What ticked him off about the Elliott matter was not that it happened to Elliott, but that it had happened to anyone. Elliott was one of the shooters of the deserters, which would have done nothing to endear him to Benteen, who showed more of a sense of loss for the sergeant major, Kennedy.
quote:
In order to "come Up' with a specific law that Benteen violated he would, naturally, have to face a Court Martial.
No, in order to come up with a law you just have to cite one: chapter, section, etc. Before accusing someone of violating the law, I figure you should actually take the trouble of knowing what you're talking about.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 5:05:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
For those who wish to read where Wiggs stole much of this often literate posting: http://americanhistory.about.com/library/prm/blcuster4.htm. There are the three previous pages as well. 'Conflagrant' gave him away.
Wiggs is slipping; he used to steal from the big boys like Fox and Gray, but it seems now the best he can do is kidnap prose from Wild West Magazine, which is of course renowned for its impeccable research and carefully drawn conclusions. That's like stealing peanuts from a blind monkey.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 6:27:39 PM
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This is what I mean, Lorenzo. The posting to which you refer, and took seriously, was a self-deprecating and sarcastic one, not remotely intended as being taken as true or reflective of my self-observations.
I encourage you to post, and always have, but it's too hard to figure out what you mean, then correct your misinterpretation, than regress to the actual topic, and write in a fashion you will understand. So I'm not going to spend much time on it, anymore. But others here have no problems with it, they say, so by all means post.
Again, this is probably how Martini misinformed Benteen. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 11:11:07 PM
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| I am now convinced that Dark cloud and his alter ego are one and the same. This theory was proffered earlier by another forum member but, I just couldn't believe it. Where does this/those idiot(s) think that I received my information from? Like everyone else I read, research, and opine. Please boys, and I use that term with conviction, get a life. Last but, certainly not least, where are the monitors? |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2004 : 05:30:27 AM
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Did Custer disobey orders?
Did Reno disobey orders?
Did Benteen disobey orders?
Did Weir disobey orders?
Did McDougal disobey orders?
Was there a clear unambigious order given to anyone that day?
In order for there to be a Court Martial there would have to be a charge, which would include what 'laws' were broken
I imagine you ment to say assumed to be broken DC.[if one can make so bold as to correct a "saint".]
I am now convinced that Dark cloud and his alter ego are one and the same.
Do tell.Who is this alter ego? |
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Benteen's order
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