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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 25 2004 : 10:25:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
Reno had withdrawal in his mind, but no orders had yet been given, if I am reading Moylan's court testimony right, until they actually did it, confusedly, with Reno at the head. By his own testimony Reno was in conversation with Bloody Knife at the time he was killed, which seems unlikely had he already ordered everybody to leave, and even more so by the lack of preparation for such a withdrawal. Herendeen paints the withdrawal as being provoked by the volley which killed Bloody Knife and Lorentz, and in my view this is supported by the lack of a rear guard, and bugle calls. The decision was clearly very abrupt.
But here's the problem. If the order to retreat/withdraw/charge/whatever was given verbally, how does that fit? Bloody Knife gets hit, Reno is stunned, orders a retreat? From what I've read, the order was passed on verbally through the companies (for the most part), and then Bloody Knife was hit. And Reno ordered a them to mount, dismount and then mount again. I'll have to check the sources I have...
Isn't it possible Reno was consulting with Bloody Knife about what the Indians might do when they exit the timber?
It seems they formed up in an open area, then dashed off. If Reno suddenly ordered the retreat, then I'd doubt as many soldiers would show up, and I doubt he'd have the mindset to form up before going, if that truly happened. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 06:53:29 AM
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Just musing a bit--175 men sounds like a lot, but actually, it's just about the size of a typical Vietnam era Infantry Company. 17 lines of ten men each--would fit nicely into my back yard!! Put them all out at once on a parade ground and it's apparent that even together it isn't a particulary large force.
So when charging a village of that size, such a force would tend to be inadequate w/o some help--or unless the enemy just oughtright ran. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 10:36:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Isn't it possible Reno was consulting with Bloody Knife about what the Indians might do when they exit the timber?
But if he was really all ready to leave, then why had no arrangements been made for a rear guard? Or bugle calls? Or why had so many men, especially in G Company, not been informed? It's not like there was just Reno there. French and Moylan were both nearby, and if they were at all competent, and knew that Reno had decided to order a withdrawal/charge/retreat without these basic actions, then it seems reasonable to expect they might whisper something in his ear. "Uh, Reno...."
French, in fact, in that letter of his printed in "The Custer Myth," is quite explicit on how unexpected Reno's retreat was. "What made Major R run away when he did I cannot positively know, and he did not tell me.... To turn ones back on Indians without being better mounted than they is throwing away life. When he started to that hill he had told me, not one minute before, that he was going to fight --- this was in reply to a question of mine" (341).
quote:
It seems they formed up in an open area, then dashed off. If Reno suddenly ordered the retreat, then I'd doubt as many soldiers would show up, and I doubt he'd have the mindset to form up before going, if that truly happened.
If Reno had not suddenly ordered a retreat, then there wouldn't have been so many men left in the dark, and so many holes in its execution. Moylan is clear in his testimony that Reno had it in mind at that point --- I'm not arguing that. Reno even asked for his opinion on where they ought to retreat to; Moylan didn't have one, but Reno pointed out a spot in the hills as good one. Moylan added, however, that the conversation ended with him not knowing what Reno's intentions were. A few minutes passed, then Reno ordered everybody to go.
McIntosh was somewhere out of sight in the timber, and both Moylan and French are on record as not knowing what Reno's intentions were until he abruptly gave the order and left. That seems sudden to me, and it explains a lot about why the retreat was so violent and disastrous. And I think the unnerving experience of tasting Bloody Knife's brains explains it all most plausibly.
R. Larsen |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 11:46:19 AM
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I think Larsen's summation is the most logical, and that Reno fell apart (not unreasonably, if irresponsibly) with brains across his face. No argument about that.
What I don't find compelling is the argument that Reno was a 'coward' and sequentially retreated because of that supposed character flaw. I'd imagine any battle subject to the scrutiny of LBH would turn up a Major Reno in each, and who had served well and bravely on other occassions. The retreat was very badly done, no doubt. But those most adament about damning Reno do so to excuse Custer, who is guilty of everything of which Reno is guilty, plus verified Reno's non-faith in him. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 9:37:52 PM
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| I truly believe that you believe that those who damn Reno do so to absolve Custer of all blame. This helps me to understand your perspective. I can't speak for anyone else, I wouldn't dare to, but I feel that Reno was no coward. He could have not established his fine Civil war record if he were. However, fighting "Rebs" and "Blue Bellies" was radically different from fighting aboriginals. It was a whole, new ballgame. At Wounded Knee, the defeated, starving Indian prisoners were totally surrouned by the U.S. Army when suddenly, a shot rang out. Although in complete control, some of the soldiers dropped their weapons and fled while others, shot down the helpless prisoners. Such was the fear of the Indian warrior in the minds of their white counterparts. Reno did not do well, nor did other troopers do well, this does not a coward make. Where you and I part ways is my insistence that Reno, as a commander, should be held to a higher standard than the average trooper, or grunt. Reno failed miserable because, and this possibility exist, he was drunk! This factor does not translate into a condemnation or justification of the actions of another. Reno's responses do not equate with the actions of Custer. It merely states that Reno acted unprofessionally and incorrectly. His failure is not an endorsement of Custer or anyone else involved in this battle. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 10:30:10 PM
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That's almost as stupid as the early symptoms of tertiary syphillis, which someone promulgated last year as a reason for Reno's actions. Vernum, Edgerly, Benteen, all of them stated that Reno wasn't drunk, a condition that more often leads to fatheaded belligerence than caution or fear.
That's at about the level of those who imply that Custer's lisping rashness was overcompensation for being gay, recalling his effeminate dress and concern with his hair and the fact he never produced children. Reno did nothing wrong until the retreat back across the river. And all the officers who thought this action dastardly volunteered to stay and cover them, right? Or did this only appear as a combined agreement in craven cowardice when it appeared they would survive and have to explain themselves?
Reno did fall down as commander, no argument. But he does not deserve to have this sole failure in combat be his epitaph, given his record. His guys survived, after all. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 28 2004 : 2:51:28 PM
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Did Benteen disobey a direct order in his failure to respond to Custer's written Order?
First of all, what constitutes a "Direct Order." Stripped to its bearest essence, a direct order is a demand (by the sender of superior rank) for a specific action addressed to a specific source (receiver/group) of lesser rank. It is not a request. The option of compliance is not a choice.
"Benteen, Come Quick."
The need of the action should be explained if practical and, the time/situation permits.
"Come On. Big Village. Be Quick. Bring Packs.
The poll does not ask if the order a was:
A. A good one;
B. A moral one;
C. A sensesible one;
D. Impossible to comply with;
E. Practical;
F. Impractical;
G. Insane;
F. Sane.
Issues of morality, practicality, sensesibility regarding this order is a matter of interest for a different poll wherein answers for these issues are requested; mine did not. Some would proffer that Custer and Benteen had no idea as to where each was located. Custer, obviously possessed some inkling as he directed the order to Benteen, no one else. Benteen realized that he was following the physical tracks of Custer's command when he veered off to assist Reno. The subsequent sounds of volley fire coming from Custer's location was heard by numerous soldiers and scouts. At that point, any doubts of Custer's location should have been cleared up and, response could have still been effected. Deciding not to do so is a violation of a direct order; morale issue aside. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 28 2004 : 3:18:24 PM
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| So it should be easy for you to tell us the correct allocation of forces after Benteen came up, divided between the train, wounded, and the heroic attack/rescue force, burdened with its own ammo mules. Of course, subordinates are not encouraged to pointlessly obey orders that would clearly, by circumstances greatly changed since their issuance - if nothing else - lead to the eradication of the entire command, and are not punished for being unable to comply. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 01:20:02 AM
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175 men on *1000 lb horses* is damned formidable.
Would *that* fit in your back yard?
And what would it do to your back yard if it could?
quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Just musing a bit--175 men sounds like a lot, but actually, it's just about the size of a typical Vietnam era Infantry Company. 17 lines of ten men each--would fit nicely into my back yard!! Put them all out at once on a parade ground and it's apparent that even together it isn't a particulary large force.
So when charging a village of that size, such a force would tend to be inadequate w/o some help--or unless the enemy just oughtright ran.
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Deny Everything
Prepare to Panic |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 03:10:00 AM
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Wiggs
Come On. ------------- He did
Big Village------------Got there
Be Quick. -------------He was
Bring Packs------------He did
McDougal got the same order and complied in the same manner
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 03:45:37 AM
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Come On. ------------- He did (true)
Big Village------------Got there (true)
Be Quick. -------------He was (debatable)
Bring Packs------------He did (he did?)
Perhaps much of the discussion of Benteen and his order is the fact that he claimed Custer's original order was vague and was basically "valley hunting infinitum".
As for him bringing packs, that's news to me. I've read he got the order from Martin, and put it in his pocket. That he sent no one, not even Martin, back to the packs. So how did Benteen bring packs? They showed up on their own. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 06:41:50 AM
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Alfuso:
Yes--I believe they would. I have 7 acres. The fertilizer would probably help the grass grow--. But then I'd have more to mow--
And I'm not so sure they would look all that formidable. Maybe if they were attacking my house. But not attacking a large village(with thousands of inhabitants) on their own. And if it were only the minimum 140 men (not 175)--?
And I'm fairly sure the Indians weren't exactly awed by the weight of a US cavalry horse. That might be a factor if they were riding down Infantry in an open field--.
And since they weren't in my backyard, they would look a lot less formidable when they became spread out. And even less so when they got OFF their horses.
My original point being that such a relatively small # of troops charging a large village on their own w/o immediate support is just not enough to do the job---. As was made clear by what happened. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 07:02:48 AM
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Crab
Bring Packs------------He did (he did?)
The order from Custer made him responsible for the arrival of the packs.Now he had already directed Kanipe back to the packs and if he was satisfied the packs were following along ,what more could be done?
The packs for which he was responsible did arrive ,thus I feel--"he did" is ok.
Regards
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 07:25:40 AM
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And I'm fairly sure the Indians weren't exactly awed by the weight of a US cavalry horse.
Any photos of cavalry horses I'v seen depict a rather small beast.Not at all impressive.Not a real charger.
Then perhaps a big cavalry horse would be unsuitable for the kind of job they were expected to do.
Cheers |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2004 : 4:43:15 PM
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| As the command "Come On, Be quick" was issued by the General, one has to assume that he intended Benteen to respond to his location as quickly as possible. This would exclude the proposition that Benteen's arrival to Reno's bluff (where he sat for over an hour before finally following Weir) qualifies as a compliance of the order. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2004 : 7:20:23 PM
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And during that hour, what should he have done, Wiggs? Should he disobey orders and advance to Custer without the packs? Only some? How many of which type? How long would that take? How much quicker could the packs have arrived without dropping any?
Again, does he advance with the wounded? If not, tell history the exact breakdown of assignments of who protects what. If you can't, or won't, then the questioning of Benteen's and Reno's decisions seems pretty vapid.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2004 : 11:06:22 PM
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The packs referred to by Cooke were not the ones which carried bacon and hardtack, it was the ammunition. The ammunition packs could have been cut loose, by Benteen, from the main herd and hurried forward. By doing so he would have been in compliance with his orders. The distance from Reno's bluff to Custer Hill was a little over four miles. I could have ran that distance myself in less than an hour. Benteen need not advance with the wounded, he had none. He had three intact companies that had suffered no casualities nor dispensation of ammo. Reno had ample troops to protect his wounded. Particularly when one realizes that virtually every participant of the battle unanimously concur that the vast majority of warriors departed fron Reno's battle front to contend with Custer. This is not to say that the warriors could not have suddenly returned but, why should they. Reno's "charge" to the ford was viewed by the warriors as a buffalo hunt and, it was felt that the old men and boys were perfectly capable of guarding the troopers on the bluff. This negative attitude regarding the martial prowness of the soldiers is best exemplified by the comments of Mrs. Spotted Horn Bull, full cousin of Sitting Bull: "The man who led those troops must have been drunk or crazy. He had the camp at his mercy, and could have killed us all or driven us away naked on the prairie. I don't believe there was ashot fired when his men commenced to retreat. (Her husband qualified this by saying, 'not much firing by the Indians.') But when they begun to run away they ran very fast, and dropped their guns and ammunition. Our braves were not surprised by this time, and killed a good many when they crossed the plain to the river, while they were fording and on the hill beyond. I saw boys pull men from their horses and kill them on the ground."
The point being that the warriors consideration of Reno's martial capabilities was contemptuous at best.
With no warriors threatening Reno, Benteen could have moved forward at approximately 4:15 with three companies of troops rather than the lackluster, ill-conceived, impedimenta that occurred over an hour later. This movement may have caused great concern to Gall's warriors in the Henryville sector as their rear flank would have been exposed. Perhaps such a movement may have caused confusion among the Indians and, enabled a portion of Custer's command to escape death. I have not proposed that Benteen should have moved forward, I never have. I merely present an option. It is common practice to critique every military engagement after its completion. That is what this forum is about. We are all Monday Morning quarterbacks saying, "What if?" Otherwise we wouldn't be here. To question is not to judge. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 03 2004 11:11:00 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 10:48:48 AM
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Fascinating. The word "ammo" doesn't appear in the order whatever. This is a convenient substitution through the years. Custer "must have meant...." although it could easily have meant protect the entire train so near a huge village.
How many ammo mules, if any, should Benteen have brought to Custer? All of them? Since no proportion is mentioned, apparently that's the meaning of the order. That would make the survival of Reno nebulous, would it not? Yes, it would. Would that be considered a valid order, the distribution of all reserve ammo during combat to only one unit, thereby sacrifing the other?
Would Benteen have been doing his duty as an officer in sacrificing men and ammo to achieve this remarkable instruction? Was he even be able to get to Custer? If he was, was he able to retrieve wounded and return? What, precisely, would have been the point, since there isn't any evidence Custer's men ran out of ammo anyway, is there?
Is Gall back as a chief (Gall's boys)? Last I read, he'd been demoted back to big guy, good warrior but not a leader. He only became a 'chief' through the eyes of white men looking to combat SB's influence after the battle.
Bear in mind "Henryville" is designated based upon some found cartridges that may or may not have appeared during the battle. If we assume they DID appear during the battle, then we have a first: Sioux fighting by firearm kinship in units. The 101st Sioux Dragoons.
Does the blood kinship of Mrs. SHB increase the veracity of her testimony? You say that her view - that Reno was a poof - is "best exemplified" by her statement. This sugggests there are other statements to that effect above which her's soars. Where are they, when and by whom obtained, and how do you meld all that to the testimony of scouts that the Sioux were assembled in numbers prepared to meet Reno as he charged. Coming out to meet him, in fact.
If the scouts', and later officers', testimonies to this effect are lies, can we safely eliminate their future testimony to the conduct of Reno as lies as well? If not, why not?
Once on Reno Hill, with no packs for cover, no mules to protect the wounded, and in fact nowhere near enough men to cover the "high ground", Reno would have had to pack up and leave or find another place. It was barely defensible as it was with the train and Benteen.
While we all shrivel at your athletic mastery, Wiggs, able to run four miles on a 95 degree day over extremely broken ground in an hour, of course it's irrelevant. There is no straight line of access between the two points, and no place for cavalry to fight, as Custer discovered some time before. For Benteen to have engaged to fight through, he would have had to dismount and have horseholders while attacking a Sioux flank (I just love using military terminology, don't you? It's fun to pretend aborigines who didn't fight as units have flanks, isn't it?)only unlike Custer he'd have the burden of the train, or a portion of the train.
So despite Custer's collapse with nothing but themselves to protect, Benteen with a little over half the men PLUS the train is supposed to attack and achieve.......what, precisely? Custer would suddenly mount his dead and scattered horses, sweep up his wounded and break to Benteen? If Custer didn't have the ability to break out, why are we with straight faces suggesting Benteen - with the train - had the ability to break in? The ground does not allow this, and it is silly to pretend it does. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 2:41:23 PM
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So despite Custer's collapse with nothing but themselves to protect, Benteen with a little over half the men PLUS the train is supposed to attack and achieve.......what, precisely
Now BC let's be fair to Wiggs.He is making a case for Benteen carrying out the ambiguous instructions contained in Cooke's message.There is nothing in the message suggesting he should do anything other than come on What you are saying above is based on Benteen knowing Custer's situation which at the time he made his decision to remain with Reno he could not possible have known.
Particularly when one realizes that virtually every participant of the battle unanimously concur that the vast majority of warriors departed fron Reno's battle front to contend with Custer.
Wiggs how did Reno and Benteen know where the hostiles had gone?
[i][b]With no warriors threatening Reno, Benteen could have moved forward at approximately 4:15.
Is there any need to describe the condition Benteen found Reno and his command in?Benteen has to make a decision and there in front of him is the 2i/c of the regiment begging him to assist.How does know where the hostiles are?He makes that decision based on what he sees not on an assumption of what might be.
Regards |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 4:05:46 PM
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"Wiggs how did Benteen and Reno know where Custer had gone."
The same way Weir found out, by responding to "the sound of firing." From Weir's Point, Captain Weir watched the Indians riding about dispatching the wounded. He certainly discovered a portion of the kill zone.
Benteen's decision to remain was his to make. I repeat, we can only offer options. Would he have been any less a soldier if he had chosen to move out? Of course not. Since Custer is considered, by some, to be a fool for charging, the act of not charging makes Benteen a Rhodes Scolar? What if he had chosen to charge and succeeded in saving Custer's Command? This question would be moot..and he would have been honored as a hero.
I am not implying that Benteen should have thrown away his life nor the lives of his men in a foolish endeavor. What I am implying, despite the efforts of some to vilify my position, is that we will never know what could have happen because the attempt was not made. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 04 2004 4:15:32 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 5:09:42 PM
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This whole thread is based on your implication that Benteen should have gone to Custer. And Benteen could very well have been a Rhodes Scolar, just not a Rhodes Scholar. A Rhodes Scholar would have quoted correctly "Wiggs how did Reno and Benteen know where the hostiles had gone?" The Scolar, on the other hand, puts something else entirely in quotes:"Wiggs how did Benteen and Reno know where Custer had gone." This is the sort of attention to detail and meticulous scholarship that makes you a true Rhodes Scolar yourself, and has made discussion of your posts so painful. Again, not only aren't you aware of what others have actually said, you're rarely aware of what you yourself have said.
What did Custer charge, this day?
And Benteen was honored as a hero by the command he saved, deservedly.
And what options have you offered that can be recognized as such? When confronted with requests for particulars, you wilt. Perhaps there are no quotes from Marquis or Gray handy to usurp. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 10:50:52 PM
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| Your "vapid" statements do nothing to challenge my premise. Ironically, you do not even attempt to address my comments regarding Benteen's failure to attempt what Weir did. And so, you reduce your comments to a string of unwarranted, ignoble, and supercilious statements that have nothing to do with the issues. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Perhaps if you spent less time attempting to be witty and, address the issues, your comments would be greater appreciated. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2004 : 9:22:36 PM
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| One factor that may have been involved in Benteen's decision to remain on the bluffs that has not been discussed, thus far, is a psychological one. Upon arriving to Reno's position the first thing Benteen, and his men, see is a greatly demoralized and, justifiably so, frightened group of soldiers. Benteen, a competent soldier must have realized that the psychological defeatism and shock of Reno's men was spreading to his own men like a highly, contagious infection. Benteen may have had the foresight to realize that this totally unexpected defeat of the 7th. robbed the troopers of incentive and esprit de corps; the ability to thrust forward. I don't know, just mere speculation. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 07 2004 : 10:35:30 PM
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Excerpt From A Letter to General Godfrey
From Wm. O. Taylor of "A" Troop, 7th Cavalry, 74 East Main St., Orange Mass.)
"I enlisted in Troy, N. Y., Jan. 17, 1872, went to St. Louis and was there assigned with many others to the 7th. and soon after joined Capt. French's Troop "M' at Unionville, S. C. Was with troop "M" at Ft. Rice until the latter part of 1875 or early in 1876 when I sought and ontained a transfer to Capt. Moylan's Troop "A" at Ft. Lincoln.* * * and therefore was with Troop "A" and took part in the the fight at the Little Big Horn. It so happened that both times the troop counted fours that 25 June 1876 I was a number four man and as such had to care for led horses when the troop was dismounted, hence I did not see much of the firing line in the first part of the valley fight, being in the woods with the led horses. I do no know if I can add anything to the story of that unexpected and demoralized rout that you do not know. It seemed but a very few moments after we had taken the horses into the timber before the men came rushing back for them. I did not see any officers in there except Lieut. Varnum I think, nor did I hear orders as to what we were to do. After my led horses were taken, I followed in the direction the men had taken, mounting and dismounting several times, but for what purpose I did not know. As I came out of the timber into the open I saw the soldiers heading for the bluffs and firing their revolvers at the indians, who were rushing in the same direction, but a few yards away, with a tendency to crowd us. My horse played out just after crossing the river and things looked rather dark as I trudged up the steep bluff, a comrade with whom I was talking being shot dead at my side: but the top was soon reached, and most unexpectedly the indians seemed to draw off and left us alone. Then Benteen came up and you know the rest.
Reno proved incompetent and Benteen showed his indifference-I will not use the uglier words that have often been in my mind. Both failed Custer and he had to fight it out alone. This is but one my theories-a theory of one who has had no chance of studying the field or talking with survivors of the battle. Among the several things that impressed me greatly, one was the general demoralization that seemed to pervade many of the officers and men, due in great measure, I think, to Major Reno. When an enlisted man sees his commanding officer lose his head entirely and several others officers showing greater regard for the personal safety than anything else, it would be apt to demoralize anyone taught to breathe, almost at the word of command.
I have seen but one member of the 7th since I was discharged in January 1877 : that was Sergt. John Ryan of "M" Troop. He is now a Captain of Police at West Newton, Mass. |
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Benteen's order
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