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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 19 2004 : 06:27:39 AM
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Well, I'll do it:
Camp's LBH Roster
I count 55 officers and soldiers in Company A.
I count 66 officers and soldiers in Company G.
I count 65 officers and soldiers in Company M.
Trumpeter Henry Dose, from A, was with Custer and died near MTC, apparently. Lt. Hodgson was a B Company officer, but with Reno as his adjutant. Lt. Mathey was in charge of the packtrain, detached from M Company. So, adding Reno and Hodgson and subtracting Dose and Mathey is a wash, and we have a total of 189 soldiers. Remove the 7 per company for the train, and we have 168 soldiers. Remove 10 per company, and that's still 159 soldiers.
DC, what is your source for the 154 number?
I can upload a saved HTML page of Camp's LBH roster, Larsen, if you want to compare for differences. The list is said to have been edited by Hammer, and the "Editor" said that Camp included "some of the recruits who joined the regiment after June 1876." How many? I don't know. I can't imagine it was many, as something would have been mentioned. I would guess the errors were not many for this reason. It was mentioned in uncertain terms. If it was a gross inflation, the exact numerical discrepancy would undoubtedly be noted. And I'm sure there are other soldiers listed that were not present, as the band is listed under Custer's headquarters.
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I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 2:26:55 PM
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Crab,
I'm not by the info dump so cannot defend myself but didn't you say 154 at one point in a posting? I noticed a few days ago that Graham was saying 112, so I'm utterly at sea. I think I used Gray and subtracted out the native scouts as, I guess, you did. In any case, I'll cheerfully admit to being wrong as I'd bet we can agree five men one way or the other could not have been an issue.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 7:19:43 PM
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| Excellent research crab and a job well done. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 7:39:13 PM
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55, 66, and 65 represent the full rosters for each of those three companies, but several men were not at the battle for a variety of reasons, be it sick, in prison, at the Powder River depot, etc. etc. Company A, for instance, was missing eight soldiers: Muering, Bockerman, Borter, Burdick, Corwine, Kerr, Ragsdale, and Weiss.
G was missing Dose on detached service with Custer, but his absence was matched by Davern (F) being on detached service with Reno. Pvt. Clear (K) was also with the battalion, and it seems Pvt. Abbots (E) was too, and with nine officers, Reno's command probably had, roughly, 123-35 soldiers, not counting scouts and surgeons.
R. Larsen |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 7:54:28 PM
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I said 140 troopers and 30-35 scouts, for a total of 175 in his battalion.
I've heard the regiment, including scouts, was around 650 strong. So if we backtrack...
650-210=440 (Custer's battalion)
440-115=325 (Benteen's battalion)
325-50=275 (B Company)
275-96=179 (Packtrain, 8 per company, which is 1 higher than the normally attested detachment)
So either Benteen had more soldiers or Reno's battalion strength was deflated. Reno stated in his battle report, that he, after Benteen and the packtrain arrived, had command of about 380 men. Around 265 soldiers were killed in all, 210 or so with Custer, and the rest at the Reno/Benteen field. If Reno's count is fairly accurate, we have 645 men in all. Except some soldiers were killed in the hilltop fight, and they were included in this 380 number. Nat'l Geographic said "40 men died, 13 were wounded, and many were missing" as a result of Reno's valley fight. Reno, in his report, said 3 officers and 29 enlisted men were killed. We'll stick with his numbers. Out of 265 dead, 210 were with Custer, and 32 were killed in the valley fight. That leaves us 23 dead to account for. I don't believe 23 soldiers were killed in the hilltop fight, but we'll let it slide. Subtract the 23 from the 380, and we have 357 soldiers alive after the battle. So its possible the number was 622 men.
622-210=412 (Custer's battalion)
412-115=297 (Benteen's battalion)
297-50=247 (B Company)
247-96=151 (Packtrain, 8 per company)
So that's 151 soldiers and scouts in Reno's battalion, based off his numbers. Of course, the numbers are based on guesses on battalion strength. And 622 sounds low, as I've heard 647-660 for regimental strength in the LBH valley. Its also possible Reno does not count scouts among his hilltop numbers, as some left at various times. They were all released, and if fighting, doing so of their own volition. Plus, my packtrain numbers are possibly high by up to 12 soldiers, 1 extra per company. I did this to be on the conservative side. But on the same token, I've heard up to 225 soldiers were with Custer's battalion (could be before accounting for soldiers dropping out, such as Thompson of C Company and couriers sent).
I believe Reno deflated his battalion strength, either intentionally to cover his ass, or unintentionally by excluding the scouts who fought.
Anyway, here's Reno's battle report:
http://www.lbha.org/renorep.htm |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 04:09:12 AM
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| I'm perplexed about how these numbers mean anything. It's not exciting whether 112 or 175 were insufficient; either was. Both were. The 7th's only chance was a concentrated charge from the south, if that. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 05:45:52 AM
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I don't agree that 175 with the advantage of surprise were insufficient to open the fight productively. They seemed to do quite fine until Reno fell apart. The scouts stole some ponies, probably killed some villagers. The battalion surprised the village itself, formed a skirmish line, took minor casualties and fell back under pressure, possibly disjointed and without definite orders to do so. The situation was made dire by Reno's inability to maintain order and discipline. Orderly withdrawl was possible, and not in such a way as to cost the battalion 30-40 killed and over a dozen missing.
I enjoy the minute details of the battle. I like to discuss such things. To me, its important to try and determine the approximate total in Reno's battalion. And I'm always interested in learning more, as I am sure others here are as well. Otherwise, what's the point? And I think its interesting that Reno's battalion was possibly closer in size to Custer's battalion.
No one seems to speak of the Custer battalion as being small. It wasn't enough (obviously) in the end. But I've heard such things about Reno's battalion. But if it was only 35 soldiers short of Custer's, then what does that say? That's less than a company, despite the presence of 2 more companies in Custer's battalion. I think many of us were under the impression that Reno's battalion was around 140 total. If that's wrong, shouldn't we figure out what is closer to the truth? Even if it would have changed nothing, in your opinion? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 07:24:55 AM
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I don't agree that 175 with the advantage of surprise were insufficient to open the fight productively.
Did you ever consider the effect the village itself would have had on a relatively small body of cavalry charging into it?The tents/lodges/wigwams etc would have fragmented the command into small units and individuals.All control would have been lost.Only as one unit of 175 troopers would the battalion have remotely stood a chance of survival.
Cheers
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 3:08:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Did you ever consider the effect the village itself would have had on a relatively small body of cavalry charging into it?The tents/lodges/wigwams etc would have fragmented the command into small units and individuals.All control would have been lost.Only as one unit of 175 troopers would the battalion have remotely stood a chance of survival.
Cheers
Never said they had to charge into the village. My point was 175 men was a decently-sized force. And they had the village in a state of panic and disarray without even entering it. And they didn't face the majority of the warriors.
The only issue I have with Reno is after the skirmish line. If the line was untenable due to the Sioux and Cheyenne numbers, then what do you do? Get yourself surrounded on all sides? Then verbally order a retreat without any rearguard? Why weren't their bugles blown to inform the entire battalion? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 8:27:58 PM
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| El Crab, in conjunction with your issue with Reno I discovered an interesting article in Farrow's Military Encyclopedia (1885). Farrow describes a military retreat as a retrograde movement of a force with the intention of avoiding an encounter with a hostile body in the front. When the enemy pursues, if the retreat is not to degenerate into a rout, the retreating army must be covered by a powerful rearguard, from which time to time must hold the pursuers at bay, while the artillery-train and baggage pass defiles, cross streams, and over come other special obstacles. Webster describes a "rout" as: State of being disorganized and thrown into confused flight. It is the latter definition that aptly describes Reno's "Charge." |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 11:22:35 PM
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You needed to look up an old 19th century textbook to find out what a retreat and a rout are?
R. Larsen
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 03:07:24 AM
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My point was 175 men was a decently-sized force.
Not sure what you mean here Crab.
They were not strong enough to charge the village,not strong enough to hold a skirmish line,not strong enough to hold the timber and not strong enough to retreat in good order.
So my question to you is decently-sized force to do what?
Why weren't their bugles blown to inform the entire battalion?
Perhaps Reno's Bugler was dead.Or did Reno not send the poor unfortunate with a message to Custer?
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 5:16:48 PM
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There are several buglers per company.
Company A
William G. Hardy
David McVeigh
Company G
Cassius R. Carter
Henry Dose
Company M
Henry C. Weaver
Charles Fisher
Only Henry Dose was sent to Custer, as far as I know. That leaves 5 trumpeters. And none of them were hit on the skirmish line or timber, or if they were, it wasn't mentioned.
The skirmish line was abandoned with under 5 casualties. The timber was abandoned with the same, and it seemed to have been abandoned not because it was indefensible, but because it wasn't defended properly. As in Reno did not have a plan, and his force was in the timber, but not in position to hold it.
Just because those positions weren't held doesn't mean they couldn't be. They were strong enough to retreat in good order. Well, maybe they weren't. But we'll never know, as no attempt to retreat in good order was taken. But take a look at what happened. The losses were almost exclusively incurred from the timber to Reno Hill. The battalion was strong enough that the warriors stayed back, with the exception of acts of bravery by small groups, until the soldiers ran.
Reno's battalion might have been too small, but what was going to be accomplished by leaving soldiers in the timber, gettin 30-40 killed, etc., and not having a plan for the battalion when they get across the river. If his battalion was too small, all the more reason to make sure every soldier knew they were leaving the timber, since the battalion's survival was at stake.
But we'll never know, because Reno seemed to be ready to run from the time he crossed into the valley. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 5:45:49 PM
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Cassius Carter was in Louisiana at the time of the battle. G Company had no trumpeters in the valley.
I don't agree that Reno was "ready to run" from the moment he entered the valley. I'd say he was a little bit antsy --- notice how after crossing, but before attacking, he sent two messengers with the same exact message to Custer within a few minutes of each other --- but were he ready to run, he sure wasted a lot of time shooting bullets at all those Indians.
The more conventional opinion, which I share, is that he just got badly shaken up when Bloody Knife's brain was blown into his face, and from then on could think of nothing else but "GET OUT OF HERE". Had that relatively trivial incident not happened, I doubt the retreat (if they did retreat) would have been as bloody or as chaotic as it turned out to be.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 8:03:59 PM
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| El Crab, once again your summation is superb, correct, and, well phrased. Bravo! I realize that you don't need me to tell you this, I just enjoy doing so. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on June 23 2004 8:07:06 PM |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 12:01:24 AM
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G Company had no trumpeters. But A and M Company had two each, it seems. So why weren't bugle calls ordered? Four available trumpeters. No bugle calls.
Unless I'm wrong, the verbal order to move out of the timber was given BEFORE Bloody Knife's brains were splattered all over Reno. Then he ordered the "mount", a "dismount" to possibly deal with infiltrating warriors, and then another "mount". Then Reno led those that were told of the order out of the timber, without a rearguard. Therefore, it was already planned, and planned without a rearguard. So they came out, formed up and were off. And the Indians initially were unsure of what the soldiers were doing, so they didn't do much of anything at first. But when the warriors saw them running, they moved in close. And 30-40 soldiers were killed. If that's wrong, feel free to post the info and the source.
Was this the first time Reno had blood and/or brains splattered on his person? He did serve in the Civil War with some distinction. It was a rather bloody conflict, after all.
From what I've read, Reno seemed to be rattled before he went into the timber. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 04:28:29 AM
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the verbal order to move out of the timber was given BEFORE Bloody Knife's brains were splattered all over Reno
You're right. According to Brininstool, that report the William Slaper's testimoniance, Reno asked to Captain French what he thought about the situation and after the Captain wished to go out of the timber, Reno gave the order. Only later this fact, when Reno Came back, Bloody knife died.
Must add that indians, seeing the soldiers running out of the timber, they believed to be charged and at first they began to escape (according to Black Elk and other witness), but once realizing it was a withdrawing they did'nt hesitate to start the "hunting bisons" that gave so heavy loss to the troops.
I think this fact is important for a complete understanding of the battle, as the psichology of indian warrior is one of the first matters in it. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 08:41:57 AM
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The skirmish line was abandoned with under 5 casualties.
It was about to be outflanked
The timber was abandoned with the same
Reno saw he was about to be cut off with his back to the river and no hope of escape and no sign of the promised support.
and it seemed to have been abandoned not because it was indefensible
It was indefensible.
I think DC covered the reasons.They were surronded.Had about 15 minutes of ammo.Could have been burned out.1/4 of the troops holding horses.Timber hinders control.Troopers reduced to fighting as individuals.
As I have stated before if Reno decieded not to go forward he should have gotten out immediately.
The losses were almost exclusively incurred from the timber to Reno Hill.
Sure,because the indians got close just as happened to Custer.
The battalion was strong enough that the warriors stayed back, with the exception of acts of bravery by small groups, until the soldiers ran.
Agreed,but the situation was deteriorating.The Indians were growing in numbers and firepower.The troopers would not have held for ever.
I think it is accepted that a 10% casualty rate has a serious effect on a units determination to fight.Casualties were mounting while ammo was dwindling.
From what I've read, Reno seemed to be rattled before he went into the timber.
Of course he was and probably every officer and trooper.Once you take a backward step in the face of the enemy you hand the initiative to him and you are reduced to reacting to what he does.
all the more reason to make sure every soldier knew they were leaving the timber,
It would not surprise me if some of them decieded that the better option was to remain hidden in the timber.
Regards |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 5:08:16 PM
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So why did these soldiers remaining in the timber want to get to the bluffs with the rest of the battalion? Maybe a few decided to hide in the timber on purpose, but most said they did not know the battalion was leaving until it was gone.
Reno made no attempt to keep the warriors from getting close.
DC didn't cover the reasons. He offered some up, but where's the proof the soldiers had "15 minutes of ammo"?
I believe the warriors tried to ignite some timber, and failed. Or it actually aided the soldiers, as it made it harder for the warriors to see them.
Why was Reno going to be cut off? Because he made no effort, it seems, to keep this from happening. Same with the out-flanking.
10% casualties? So they lost 15-20 soldiers and scouts before leaving the timber? Gray, Centennial Campaign, pg. 294, states 2 lost on the skirmish line, 9 lost in the timber. That's 11 dead, a higher number than I've seen. The two dead may include the soldiers whose horses bolted (Pvt. Turley and I want to say a Pvt. Smith), or they may not. Sgt. Miles O'Hara was said to have been hit on the line, and died. I can think of only a handful in the timber, Pvt. Lorentz, who was shot in the neck, another trooper who got hit around the same time, and Bloody Knife, who you all know had his brains scattered all over Reno.
In the same book, I believe but I can't find it again, Gray notes that upon arriving at Reno Hill, his command numbered 7 officers and 84 men. Out of a minimum of 140, a maximum of 175, depending on whether the scouts were included in this count. If the point was to escape and reform on high ground, perhaps having more than 52-65% of your command remaining would be necessary. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 9:53:52 PM
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One of the conclusions in the Reno Inquiry proffered by the Recorder, Lt. Lee, is the following: "Two pack mules were sent for, each carrying 2000 rounds of ammunition, and none was issued! Lt. Wallace testified that he saw one box opened and men helping themselves." In other words, the commanding oficer, Reno, made no effort to dispense the critically needed ammo. If Reno had only "fifteen minutes of ammo" left, how do you explain this strange phenomenon.
Reno was a professional soldier with four years of experience in war. It is one thing to become rattled after suffering a reversal of fortune from overwhelming odds but, to do so prior to actually confronting your enemy is bizzare. When Reno fell back to the timber he had suffered only one death and two missing troopers presumed dead. As Lt. Lee also concluded, "Reno's casualties did not occur in charging toward the village but in going away from it".
Finally, as El Crab so comprehensively alluded to, there were sufficient trumpeters to sound "Recall."
Had this order been given, all of the troopers would have hear this command above the din of battle. The ultimate responsibilty for ensuring that such a critical task is accomplished is that of the on scene Commander.
The men who remained in the timber did not do because they believed this to be a better option, they were abandoned by the unexpected,unannounced, and sudden departure of their commrades who were close enough to hear Reno shout, "All of you who wish to make your escape, follow me!" How about the trumpets Reno? How about the men who were outside of the range of your voice? They were the ones left behind.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 11:43:36 PM
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Again, if you have done better in combat, you're free to correct those at issue here. Otherwise, probably best not to pretend to understandings you do not and could not have or to assume how things should have been while bad mouthing people's courage and competence. It doesn't elevate you. Quite the contrary. This cannot be said enough.
Don't know how the 'fifteen minutes' of ammo left became a fact, but I'm not arguing it. Nor why it was a phenomonon, much less 'strange' phenomonon. And isn't your representation of Lt. Wallace's testimony changed from the last time you issued this story? I checked and they're the same today, but I could have sworn you originally said two men and now it's just indistinct numbers of 'men' helping themselves to ammo? No longer a phenomonon; we're used to it.
In any case, Wiggs, why are we comparing what happened on the hill well after Reno's arrival - and after Benteen had shared his ammo and with the available dead pillaged - with the situation in the timber? Yes, it is true that a trumpet call would have been effective. You don't know who heard what, only what they said later, perhaps telling the truth, perhaps covering up. It's also not like they were in the Black Forest, but a not huge stand of trees. It's pretty hard to miss a hundred men assembling on horseback not far from you. Also, remember only 75% of the men would be firing in four directions. So if Reno had 150 guys, thirty odd are not on the line but holding reins. If 112...
It's worth noting that the 7th had no training to speak of (whose fault might that be, Wiggs and Crab?), and if the enemy didn't run at the charge, they were reduced to ill trained men who weren't very good shots. The officers knew this, and it probably influenced their actions to greater or lesser degree.
And Lorenzo, tally up the number of people Black Elk's "testimony" went through before it got to us. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on June 24 2004 11:46:24 PM |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 12:29:08 AM
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| Where can I find this "fact" that they had 15 minutes worth of ammunition left? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 05:55:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
G Company had no trumpeters. But A and M Company had two each, it seems. So why weren't bugle calls ordered? Four available trumpeters. No bugle calls.
Unless I'm wrong, the verbal order to move out of the timber was given BEFORE Bloody Knife's brains were splattered all over Reno. Then he ordered the "mount", a "dismount" to possibly deal with infiltrating warriors, and then another "mount". Then Reno led those that were told of the order out of the timber, without a rearguard. Therefore, it was already planned, and planned without a rearguard. So they came out, formed up and were off. And the Indians initially were unsure of what the soldiers were doing, so they didn't do much of anything at first. But when the warriors saw them running, they moved in close. And 30-40 soldiers were killed. If that's wrong, feel free to post the info and the source.
Reno had withdrawal in his mind, but no orders had yet been given, if I am reading Moylan's court testimony right, until they actually did it, confusedly, with Reno at the head. By his own testimony Reno was in conversation with Bloody Knife at the time he was killed, which seems unlikely had he already ordered everybody to leave, and even more so by the lack of preparation for such a withdrawal. Herendeen paints the withdrawal as being provoked by the volley which killed Bloody Knife and Lorentz, and in my view this is supported by the lack of a rear guard, and bugle calls. The decision was clearly very abrupt.
quote:
From what I've read, Reno seemed to be rattled before he went into the timber.
Yes, but are jitterbugs the same as being "ready to run" before you even begin to fight?
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 06:08:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
10% casualties? So they lost 15-20 soldiers and scouts before leaving the timber? Gray, Centennial Campaign, pg. 294, states 2 lost on the skirmish line, 9 lost in the timber. That's 11 dead, a higher number than I've seen. The two dead may include the soldiers whose horses bolted (Pvt. Turley and I want to say a Pvt. Smith), or they may not. Sgt. Miles O'Hara was said to have been hit on the line, and died. I can think of only a handful in the timber, Pvt. Lorentz, who was shot in the neck, another trooper who got hit around the same time, and Bloody Knife, who you all know had his brains scattered all over Reno.
Yes, and I think Gray's numbers include men who died in the timber *after* the retreat began. According to Moylan, A Company had only one man killed and one wounded at the time, and from what I know of the other companies M had lost one man killed (O'Hara on the skirmish line), one man wounded (Lorentz in the timber, soon to be dead) and one man missing (Smith), and I know of no casualties from G. So counting Bloody Knife, they may have suffered only 6 casualties at the time the retreat began.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 9:56:23 PM
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Dark Cloud, a trumpet call would have been more than just effective, it could have saved lives! These men were trained to respond to specific trumpet calls which would have been audible above the shouts of soldiers, warriors, and excited mounts. The possibilty that no one may have been left behind, had someone sounded "recall", is a reality to be reckoned with. Again, I say, it is the commanders responsibility to ensure that critical actions are taken at critical times. Since time immemorial, officers, leaders, commanders have been held to a higher standard and, accountability then the average recruit; rightfully so, don't you agree?
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Benteen's order
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