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Kan-Tuck-EE
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December 31 2008
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 Posted - August 23 2009 : 6:02:55 PM
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So I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this (so great Sachem move it if ya need to!)....I love to spin tales and have been rolling this idea around in my mind...and cannot push it down. I have some good ideas for a tale of a possible continuance of Hawkeye, Cora and Chingachgook's lives after they leave "the frontier west of the Hudson". I am not a researcher but can do a little research but have a few questions for some of you history buffs.
When Hawkeye, Cora and Chingachgook left "the frontier west of the Hudson"...what route would they have taken? Seems when Hawkeye was talking of leaving and going to Kantuckee he said something about crossing the Ohio and wintering over with the Delaware. Anyone have an historical ideas of where that would have been...or where I might look to find some historical references? I love a good story but I want to be as historically correct concerning the path they would have naturally taken, sites they would have passed, people they would have come across etc. as possible. If y'all will help me...I'll letcha read it when I am done! Already got the first chapter pretty much written and the groundwork laid. I would be doing this purely for fun and to finish their story in my own mind...like I want it to be. 
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Irishgirl
Council of Elders
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richfed
Sachem
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 Posted - August 24 2009 : 06:49:53 AM
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| Post is fine here, Kan-Tuck-EE. If you decide to actually publicly spin a yarn, then there is the Fan Fiction Forum of this board. |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - August 24 2009 : 9:01:58 PM
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Keep in mind that the rivers were THE main routes through the wilderness; though the destination may be "across the Ohio", likely into what is now the state of the same name ( where the Delaware had been migrating for some time to get away from their "overlords" the Iroquois ),they would first go DOWN the Ohio. Of course, there's NO Ohio until you pass Ft. Duquesne at the Forks of the Ohio ( junction of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers ). To enable them to get that far, the Allegheny goes in the right direction from where they had been in N.Y. BUT...that assumes they returned to that area after the events in the village through killing Magua; a LOT of unnecessary backtracking. Since it's likely they ended up N, W, or NW of Montreal, the best bet would be via the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes chain to Niagra; thence south to the Allegheny. OR...possibly all the way to Ft.s Erie, Detroit, or even Chicago! One *teensy* little problem with ALL these routes, though - they're ALL controlled and/or occupied by the French and their native allies! The Forks weren't cleared until the end of 1758 with the attainment of the objective of the Forbes Expedition; the rest not until after the Treaty in 1761 - and really not effectively until after Pontiac's Rebellion was surpressed in 1763. ( And if they DID go via the Lakes, they might also get caught up in Bradstreet's campaign of 1758. )
Rather than actually "helping" you, I'm hoping you see that without doing a considerable amount of the hated research, you'll realize the pitfalls ( for both YOU and THEM! ) of blithely sending them on their way through the wilderness. ( And if you DON'T - trust me, there are PLENTY of participants on this forum who'll be quick to point out "the error of your - and their - ways"! ) |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 24 2007
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Posted - August 24 2009 : 9:29:35 PM
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| Addendum: Just in writing this very short reply I grabbed 1) Guns at the Forks by O'Meara ( history of Ft. Duquesne/Pitt ); 2) The War That Made America by Anderson ( best recent short account ); and 3) The French and Indian Wars by Hamilton ( old, very "politically incorrect", but excellent ). There are also: Montcalm and Wolfe and The Conspiracy of Pontiac, both by Parkman ( ancient, outmoded, but the standards for all the rest which followed them ); Arms For Empire by Leach ( mainly a military history ); and Wilderness Empire by Eckert ( novelistic but breathes life into the period like no other ). Betrayals by Steele is the best source for "the truth" about Ft. William Henry, but has a LOT of insightful information about culture and attitudes of the period, both white and Indian; as does Demos' Redeemed Captive, though slightly earlier. Biographies of Washington by Freeman and Flexner, and For King and Country by Lewis all detail events around the Forks, Braddock's defeat, and Forbes' Expedition from Washington's perspective. These are the primary sources that I have available here at home in my collection; maybe there are others that can be recommended by Fitz Williams or others. |
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Kan-Tuck-EE
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Posted - August 24 2009 : 10:17:10 PM
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OMG! Thank you James N! I have a lot of research to do! The books you mention sound so interesting..are they likely to be in my local library? I think I need to do some reading before I proceed with this. It is just for fun, but I want it to be as historically correct as possible. Thank you again...and like you said maybe Fitz Williams and others will stop by and add some wisdom!
Also, thank you Sachem for allowing me to start here and the headsup about Fan Fiction forum!
WW: I am going to have to readon on Fan Fiction site...I don't I have even been to that forum yet! Thanks for the heads up! |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - August 25 2009 : 01:06:14 AM
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I think James covered it very well. Lots of problems getting to Can-tuck-ee, and you don't get there by turning left! I was reading a book written from the journal of a French soldier. In it he lists the various Indian nations, one being "Mahuigaus" which I take to mean Mohicans, and which he equates with Delewares, hence a Delaware-speaking woman for Uncas? Actually, he calls the Delawares "Loups".
I would say to read Fred Anderson's book Crucible of War first. It is the best overview of the war to date. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - August 25 2009 : 12:21:07 PM
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Kan-Tuck-EE,
Some of my sources are by now pretty obscure. You're likely to find the Parkman sets in a well-stocked public library, but they're VERY long and pretty detailed and can be slow-going. Pontiac, published in 1851, is around 700+ pages ( depending on the edition ); and Montcalm and Wolfe ( pub. 1884 ) is almost 600pp. D. S. Freeman's 7 volume George Washington was completed in 1957 and its author awarded a postumous Pulitzer Prize for history; it's hopefully still available. But more realistic in scope, especially for your purposes, would be the shorter more recent works of Fred Anderson. I haven't seen Crucible of War, recommended by Fitz Williams; but around a year or so ago I found a remaindered copy of The War That Made America ( 2005 ), which according to a blurb on the jacket was a "companion volume" to a series on PBS. It was CHEAP, around $5 - 6, and VERY concise and good overall. It's probably still available new on Amazon.
My favorites for the period are probably James Flexner's George Washington - The Forge of Experience ( 1965 ), which is the first of his eventual 4-volume biography but can be satisfyingly read by itself and which brings its subject to the end of the F & I War. Freeman is more thorough with quoting primary sources and describing aspects of colonial society a bit too much; Flexner takes a more contemporary approach, attempting ( successfully, I think ) to psychoanalyse his "characters" for their inner feelings and motives. His also-Pulitizer-winning volumes would hopefully still be available, too.
Another older, probably unavailable title I neglected to mention is David Horowitz' short ( 250 pp. ) The First Frontier ( 1978 ). Subtitled The Indian Wars and America's Origins: 1607 - 1776, it is EXCELLENT for understanding white - Indian relations and especially the maddeningly convoluted, contradictory, and counter-productive relations between the various tribes themselves. Though it covers a MUCH longer period than we're dealing with here, it's well to remember that REAL history doesn't "just happen" in a vaccum.
My absolute favorite, though, is Edward Hamilton's 1962 one-volume ( just over 300 pp.! ) The French and Indian Wars, one in the series called Mainstream of America published by Doubleday, which included other works by notable writers, including Harold Lamb, John Dos Passos, C. S. Forester, Irving Stone, Clifford Dowdey, and Bruce Catton. It suffers today from its absolute honesty in simplifying the often-complex situations; and especially its tendency to "call a spade a spade" - or a drunken Indian a drunken Indian! ( Just HOW do you think "stereotypes" become stereotypes in the first place!?! ) He's also very upfront about laying the blame for the defeat exactly where it likely belongs: at the feet of M. Vaudreuil and Intendent Bigot. This was written, like the others in the series, when it was no shame to be openly proud to be an American and a citizen of the U.S., and "foreigners" like the French and the British suffer accordingly. ( OF COURSE, we CAN'T have writing like that TODAY - it's too likely to OFFEND somebody! ) So it's unfortunately unlikely you'll be able to find Hamilton; but SNATCH IT UP IF YOU DO! |
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Kan-Tuck-EE
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Posted - August 25 2009 : 2:15:02 PM
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This sounds more and more intimidating to my little pea brain! I am going to have to do a lot of reading before I can continue my little saga it seems. Good thing I started the first chapter looking back and trying to lay some groundwork. I will try to find Crucible of War and Hamilton's French and Indian Wars. Good thing I love to read! Thanks y'all!
Fitz...love the reference to "and you don't turn left". Ha! Good one! |
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Kan-Tuck-EE
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Posted - August 25 2009 : 2:25:43 PM
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| Ok, here's another question. I was reading in another post a discussion about the movie/book "Follow The River". Someone posted a link to the "real" story of Mary Ingles and I (being the voracious reader that I am) followed the link and read the story. If it is actually true as stated...Mary Ingles made it home from approximately 800 miles back to her family alone (except for the old dutch woman)by following the river and lying low and staying out of sight...without ever coming in contact with anyone at all until she got back to Harmon's Station...so couldn't Hawkeye, Cora and Chingachgook have done the same???? |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - August 26 2009 : 10:40:05 AM
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You know what, Kan? In fiction.... anything is possible! It is just that -- fiction.
James and Fitz have given you some very valuable advice. But, here is mine: since you are not planning to publish your work, just have fun with it! Make the characters and the story go where you want, and in the way you want. Anything is possible!
Just ask Hollywood!
In answer to your question, I am quite certain that with Hawkeye's excellent tracking skills, he could evade just about anyone he didn't want to come in contact with. I say Go For It!
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - August 26 2009 : 11:01:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
I am quite certain that with Hawkeye's excellent tracking skills, he could evade just about anyone he didn't want to come in contact with.
Except, of course, the French and their Native allies out of Fort Duquesne! |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
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Posted - August 26 2009 : 11:34:32 AM
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To me the most unfortunate fact is that regardless WHERE they go or by what route they are unlikely to "escape" the developments brewing throughout the entire colonial world: the native unrest that culmnated in Pontiac's uprising; continued westward expansion by the English colonists led by such unsavory elements as Pennsylvania's Paxton Boys as well as others like Simon Kenton and Daniel Boone; the spread of the Revolutionary War, eventually destroying the Iroquois League, as far down the Ohio as Venango and Cairo, Ill.; and the horrors perpetrated against the peaceful mission Indians at Canawaugha. I think the best source for the world they'd be entering are the novelistic "narrative" treatments by Allan Eckert, Wilderness Empire ( the F & I period centered around William Johnson ) and especially for the period following through the Revolution, The Frontiersman, centering on, but not limited to, Kenton.
Of course, any "tale" has to have some kind of conflict, so the possibilities are endless! The French and members of some tribes would object to Hawkeye as being "too English"; as allies of the hated Iroquois, Mohicans ( even if there's only one now! ) might well be suspect, even by their erstwhile allies like the Delaware; and of course, Cora wouldn't really fit in anywhere! And isolation like you've suggested to help them "escape" would likely cause them to eventually wind up like the Camerons at the hands of all sorts of potential predators. I'm afraid any sort of existance for the three in any frontier scenario would likely be, as the quote goes, "nasty, brutish, and short"! |
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Kan-Tuck-EE
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Posted - August 26 2009 : 9:09:44 PM
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| LOL, James N. you make some good points! WW, you are right! It is just for fun and I am looking forward to getting on with it but I am definitely doing some reading and it is so interesting! I read last night "THE LENAPE AND THEIR LEGENDS; WITH THE COMPLETE TEXT AND SYMBOLS OF THE WALAM OLUM," and it was fascinating! I got lost a couple times because there is so much info there but I think I got a grasp of some of it! :) I will have to read it again and again, to retain what I read....up in years doncha know and the old brain doesn't want to perform like it used to. I used to have a photographic memory...but I can't remember "jack" nowadays! :) |
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James N.
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Posted - August 27 2009 : 11:03:38 AM
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| I think one of the more "interesting" aspects of the Lenape/Delaware that should be borne in mind is that they were the ones responsible for inflicting the horrible tortures on Col. William Crawford in what is usually sanitized merely as "burning at the stake" following the collapse of his unsuccessful campaign against them in central Ohio in 1782 during the Revolution. This unfortunate incident ( fully described in Eckert's Frontiersman and based on an eyewitness account of another intended victim who managed to escape ) and others like it, goes a LONG way to explain the attitudes of most whites on the frontier towards ANY Indians. Of course, the Delaware had their reasons, too; but that didn't help change the "temper of the times" which lasted throughout the next century. I'm now reading the latest version of the Little Bighorn, A Terrible Glory, which points out that to the frontiersmen of that later period the works of Cooper and Longfellow had created a version of The Noble Red Man so different from what they knew to be the truth ( at least as they saw it ) that they began to refer to "him" derisively as "Lo" - from the once common expression of "Lo, the Poor Indian..." |
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Kan-Tuck-EE
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Posted - August 27 2009 : 11:12:56 PM
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| James N! You are a wealth of information....please keep it up! I am loving it. A few months ago my husband brought in some moldy old books that he bought at an estate sale and lo (no reference to lo, the Poor Indian) and behold in it were three promising books...one was a rather thin book on the Life Of Washington with some good paintings, sketchings etc. and some short stories about notable dates in his life; a paperback by Mari Sandoz "The Beaver Men" which looks like it is going to be good...lots of maps and references to sources; and "The OxBow Incident" by Walter Van Tilburn Clark (not sure about this one..but it might be a good read...wasn't there a movie with the same title?) Anyway, I have a whole lotta reading to do. By the way, I'd like to read about that "burning at the stake" thing. Sounds gorey but might be good to include in my "fiction" that maybe Cora and the others witness during their trip to Cantuckee. |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - August 28 2009 : 11:05:32 AM
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Kan,
Mari Sandoz is a notable Western author, famous for writing from the Indian point of view. I haven't read any of her works, but she DID write an account of the Little Bighorn, which, if I remember right, was full of the "politically-correct" Custer-bashing of the 1960's when it was written. ( "Lo, the Poor Indian..." taken to extremes! ) Her most famous work, a memoir of her father, stepfather, or some such relative called Old Jules, I believe won a Pulitzer Prize. The OxBow Incident was indeed made into an award-winning movie around the same time, in the '50's. A period military report detailing Crawford's death written by legendary frontier figure William Croghan from Fort Pitt July 6, 1782 can be found in the 1967 edition of Commager and Morris' The Spirit of 'Seventy-Six, a collation of important contemporary writings that SHOULD still be available at your library. Other period first-person accounts in the same Chapter 27, titled Conquest of the Old Northwest, also pertain to the area you're interested in. And I cannot reccommend highly enough Encyclopedia of the American Revolution by Col. Mark Mayo Boatner which actually covers the entire colonial period in a VERY accessable writing style; and has MANY entries pertaining to people, places, and events on the frontier. |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - August 28 2009 : 11:38:00 AM
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It occurrs to me that maybe I should explain WHY I recommended books about George Washington to Kan-Tuck-EE; it has mainly to do with a couple of his early frontier mentors, Tanacharison ( called the Half-King by the English ) and Monacatootha, aka Scarroyady. ( These names and spellings vary greatly depending on the source; and the two are often confused or even combined in various accounts. ) The "careers" of these two remind me of how I think Chingachgook MIGHT'VE wound up under favorable circumstances. The title "Half-King" refers to his status as what some historians have called a "proconsul" in the manner of ancient Rome. ( Think Pontius Pilate. ) The area around the Forks of the Ohio were SUPPOSEDLY a part of the Iroquois' "Wilderness Empire" - BUT... no Iroquois actually lived there. Instead Tanacharison was SENT there by them as their representative to make sure members of the Mingo, Shawnee, and Delaware tribes living in the area "toed the line"!
What better job for a now-alone ally like Chingy! As a representative of the powerful and feared Iroquois he would have a degree of status and protection otherwise unavailable to the average lone traveller; and of course, Cora and Nathaniel could "come along for the ride"! I won't go into the details of Tanacharison's responsibilities, duties, and woes; those can be found especially in Thomas Lewis' For King and Country. But he, too, paid the ultimate price for his involvement in the F & I troubles. The other "chief", Monacatootha was a noted warrior who served in a similliar capacity among the Shawnee. ( Something for Hawkeye to do?? ) Anyway, hope this gives you some ideas! |
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Kan-Tuck-EE
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Posted - August 28 2009 : 8:27:04 PM
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| It sure does give me some ideas! Thank you. I am going to spend some time this weekend working to that end...trying to bring in some characters for the "3" (Chingy, Nathaniel and Cora) to interact with in some way. Thanks again for great ideas. I hope nothing ever happens to this thread...maybe I should cut and paste all this to my computer just in case I need to read all this often and maybe when we are camping and I don't happen to have an internet connection. That would give me lots to do that wouldn't have to be done "online"...I could work "offline". |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - August 29 2009 : 09:29:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by James N.
Kan,
Mari Sandoz is a notable Western author, famous for writing from the Indian point of view. I haven't read any of her works, but she DID write an account of the Little Bighorn, which, if I remember right, was full of the "politically-correct" Custer-bashing of the 1960's when it was written. ( "Lo, the Poor Indian..." taken to extremes! ) Her most famous work, a memoir of her father, stepfather, or some such relative called Old Jules, I believe won a Pulitzer Prize. The OxBow Incident was indeed made into an award-winning movie around the same time, in the '50's. A period military report detailing Crawford's death written by legendary frontier figure William Croghan from Fort Pitt July 6, 1782 can be found in the 1967 edition of Commager and Morris' The Spirit of 'Seventy-Six, a collation of important contemporary writings that SHOULD still be available at your library. Other period first-person accounts in the same Chapter 27, titled Conquest of the Old Northwest, also pertain to the area you're interested in. And I cannot reccommend highly enough Encyclopedia of the American Revolution by Col. Mark Mayo Boatner which actually covers the entire colonial period in a VERY accessable writing style; and has MANY entries pertaining to people, places, and events on the frontier.
A side note on this thread: I agree with your assessment of Sandoz's book on Little Bighorn, James -- poor. BUT, 2 of her works I absolutely love, Cheyenne Autumn - about the trek the Northern Cheyenne made from relocation to Indian Territory back to their homeland - and Crazy Horse - a biography of this great Oglala war chief. Both are written, as you say, from an Indian perspective and are full of compassion, tragedy, heroism ... great stuff. |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - August 29 2009 : 10:18:20 AM
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Well, Rich,
As I said, I've never actually read any of her books. As a Custerphile of long-standing, I've picked up her Battle of the Little Bighorn and thumbed through it; but as it had NO illustrations ( and as I remember poor or no maps either ), I merely looked through it and put it down. Of course maps and illustrations are a poor way to judge a book's content; but I think their absence in what's supposed to be a historical account is evidence of poor or sloppy treatment by the publisher. I'd forgotten about Cheyenne Autumn, which I remember as a rather mediocre and cliche-filled movie. ( Eddie G. Robinson as - Carl Schurz!? ) I better remember the Mad Magazine satire of the movie they dubbed Cheyenne Awful!
From what little I saw in the Little Bighorn book, I took it that, somewhat like Eckert, her stuff was more than a bit "narrative" ( read "novelistic" ) in nature. ( This isn't necessaraly a criticism; since the primary focus of her work - the Indians - left so few records, I somewhat doubt it could be otherwise. ) But I questioned its value as history. |
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Thinking of spinning a tale about Hawkeye and Cora's later life
