| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
 Posted - October 27 2002 : 8:48:07 PM
|
Aside from the fact that their recipe could use a little work, I think they had an incredibly difficult situation to work with.
I'm disinclined to second-guess it from here.
~~Aim small, miss small. |
report to moderator  |
|
|
Brenda
Pioneer
Canada
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - October 27 2002 : 8:55:40 PM
|
quote:
I think they had an incredibly difficult situation to work with.
I totally agree with you. As sad as it is, it's a case of "the lesser of two evils."
Brenda
“They say that you're never as wise as when you're a child. We'll never think that clearly again.”
From Arlington Road (1999)
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - October 27 2002 : 11:10:16 PM
|
Tragic ... however, they had to take action swiftly. The Russians were monitoring, via cameras, the situation inside the theatre. A deadline for executions was approaching (and the Chechnya hostage takers WOULD have killed these people), the female suicide machines were placed among the people where they sat, fingers ready on the detonators of the bombs they wore, prepared to blow up nearly everyone. (These women were all shot in the head, by the way, as soon as the Russians entered, to prevent any one of them from detonating.)
The gas used might have been nerve gas, might have been B2 (?), which the Russians don't want to highlight since they're not supposed to "have" this gas. Speculation by doctors is that those who died from the gas probably succumbed because of their weakened conditions. No food, water, sleep - lots of stress & exhaustion.
An extraordinarily dangerous, delicate situation ... not a whole lot of room for options. I do believe had the Russians attempted to storm the theatre with marksmen ready a lot more would have died. Perhaps all ... A difficult call to make. (Several hostages said it was made clear to them they would not be leaving the theatre alive.)
IF there were not all these deaths (perhaps had the hostages not been so weakened they would have been okay overall?) we might be discussing the intelligence of the plan for rescue -
Chechnya has been a real hot spot in the region. Muslim opposition has been growing & Al Qaeda has a strong foothold. There will, unfortunately, be repeat scenes of the Moscow assault.
A side thought; had such a thing happened in America there would be lawsuits. There's something to be said for being able to take action without consideration of possible legal vengeance.
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - October 28 2002 : 07:43:39 AM
|
And now I'm hearing a Russian airplane has been hijacked....gees.
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - October 28 2002 : 7:08:31 PM
|
As much as I am appalled at the loss of life, I agree there didn't seem to be any alternatives.
But what about the aftermath? To this moment Russian authorities refuse to release information on the gas used even to hospitals, thereby making it so much more difficult for doctors to save their patients. How many more will die eventually? People leaving the hospitals are held for questioning; family members know nothing about their fate. Apparently, nothing was prepared in advance either. Secretiveness still seems to be the Pavlov reaction in the Russian government.
As for the Al Qaeda links, yes, it is widely agreed upon that the most extremist groups in Chechnya have ties to that. However, I feel that President Putin is playing a rather cynical card here. Tie your enemy to Al Qaeda, and you won't be judged on your human rights record yourself anymore.
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
|
|
Gadget Girl
Gatherer of Gathering Gadgets
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - October 29 2002 : 2:40:13 PM
|
I had a conversation yesterday with one of my collegues who is from Moscow. Her mother ( a world renowned laparascopic surgeon) thankfully was in Italy during this mess, however her father, also a physician, was not. She spent countless hours on the phone trying to get her father to leave the city - even threatened hopping a plane to ensure he did (His reluctance was based on his commitment to his patients - admirably so). He finally agreed, but left Assia with some inside viewpoints not so illucidated by the media. The theatre house where the terrorists took hostages was in a highly populated area and the authorities were looking at thousands of deaths, not just the number in the theatre. They knew the resolve of the female terrorists, whom apparently are not new creatures in this Chechnya issue, and the potential results of the amounts of explosives they were strapped to. They calculated the dose of gas based on the average age and size of the terrorists, knowing there would be some hostages lost. They were still weighing their calculations when the shooting started, but always had a primary objective of taking out the female human bombs first. She said there is also controversy that a frantic boy running down the aisle started off the shooting.
My immediate next thought was why didn't they evacuate blocks and blocks around the theatre, but I should not attempt to second guess such a situation when certainly all facets of this are not known, and would envy NO ONE having to weigh such decisions.
Di
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Bea
Keeper of the Western Door
Canada
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - October 30 2002 : 10:21:10 AM
|
I agree, the government really did not have much of a choice. However, I find it absolutely unacceptable that they are not releasing which gas was used. Obviouosly they have something to hide. From what I heard this morning on the news the death toll is rising. Terrible.
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - October 30 2002 : 11:32:21 PM
|
quote:
Secretiveness still seems to be the Pavlov reaction in the Russian government.
:) Yes ... When Putin was elected I felt he was just the sort of leader needed by the Russians, regardless of other countries' preferences, particularly because of the Chechens. But ... photo-ops & international hugs aside, once KGB, always KGB.
The aftermath is a sad thing to witness & because Russia is not an open, free society, authorities will not be too forthcoming - they don't have to be. What will happen & how many more will die, I don't know. I do find it interesting, as Diana also pointed out, that there were female suicide bombers woven within the crowd of hostages. It's a phenomena of the 21st century - young women & young men alike willing to blow themselves up while taking out as many civilians as possible. That's extraordinary ...
quote:
As for the Al Qaeda links, yes, it is widely agreed upon that the most extremist groups in Chechnya have ties to that. However, I feel that President Putin is playing a rather cynical card here. Tie your enemy to Al Qaeda, and you won't be judged on your human rights record yourself anymore.
This is true ... Al Qaeda is a VERY useful buzzword all over the world. It's made for some strange bedfellows! Regarding Chechyna, though, it's been an ongoing conflict for years & the Al Qaeda/extremists presence & activities aren't a sudden discovery of convenience.
I don't condone this, Ilse, but like other eras & other wars (Stalin???) the world is daily making pacts with the devil in pursuit of perceived lesser evils.
Having said that; what is Russia's claim to Chechyna anyway???? A continuance of Soviet wars & domination?
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - November 04 2002 : 10:09:14 AM
|
The Russian Cops and their C/T Shooters made the best of a very bad hand delt to them. Lainey is right, this will happen again and again, until that is, Pres. Putin decides to take a hint from the Israelis and vigorisly prosecute the fight in the animal's own home turf. He may be restraining himself because of "world opinion", well Mr. President "world opinion" wasn't there to prevent your people from being placed in harms way, so you should react accordingly. I have also noticed that "Amnesty International" has condemned the Israeli Government, for the response to their own 'cockroach' problem. Once again, where were those nit-wits when Israel's civilians were being blown to bits by terrorists? They were conviently silent. Me thinks thou protests too much, pehaps a hidden agenda within that orginazation? Maybe there is something for the 'Boys From Langley' to look into?
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - November 04 2002 : 11:24:59 AM
|
Personally, given their support of Ofc. Dan Faulkner's (Phila. P.D.) asassin, one Mumiah Abu Jamal, I'd like to see them paid a visit by either SOF Delta or SEAL Team-6. The image of that punk Marxist/has-been actor Ed Asner, on his knees and in tears, starring at the business end of an MP-5N gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Brenda
Pioneer
Canada
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - November 05 2002 : 9:19:08 PM
|
I heard (I forget which news service) that one of the reasons the government is reluctant to reveal what the gas released in the theatre is composed of is because they are afraid that if the ingredients get into the wrong hands, it will be developed into another terrorist weapon. Even allowing the medical people to know ... you don't know where all the terrorist ties are. If this is true, the deaths of those innocents are (indirectly) at the terrorists hands.
“They say that you're never as wise as when you're a child. We'll never think that clearly again.”
From Arlington Road (1999)
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - November 05 2002 : 10:34:43 PM
|
Good point, Brenda, people seem to forget that it was a doctor who served as one Osamma's "lieutenants". So one must be very careful with the dissemination of such intelligence.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - November 11 2002 : 12:39:01 AM
|
Now, who can argue with that?
|
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Pushmataha
Pathfinder
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 20 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - November 19 2002 : 7:20:36 PM
|
In reference to the "GAS" that the ruskies used.. Any type of chemical agent can be fatal to people in a weakened physical state.. People have died or have gotten very ill from tear gas, which I wtinessed first hand in the Army... |
-------------------------
"I think the Spirit, is the one thing we have to rely on. It has been handed to us as a live and precious coal. And each generation has to make that decision whether they want to blow on that coal to keep it alive or throw it away...Our language, our histories and culture are like a big ceremonial fire that's been kicked and stomped and scattered... Out in the darkness we can see those coals glowing. But our generation, whether in tribal government or wherever we find ourselves--Choctaw, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Creek, Seminole-- are coal gatherers. We bring the coals back, assemble them and breathe on them again, so we can spark a flame, around which we might warm ourselves." Gary White Deer, Chickasaw 1994 |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 07 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 09 2002 : 7:11:41 PM
|
| yea...this was a tragedy...my mom got all freaked out (we have relatives there) and kept alling my grandma in Ukraine asking if they were okay...russia seems to have been having a lt of accidents lately...i still cant get over the thing with the submarine that happened several years ago...and then the stunt airplane that fell on peoples head in Lvov i think, and then that plane that the russians shot down full of children on their way to spain...*shudders* |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
| report to moderator |
|
| |
Topic |
|
![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]")
Moscow
