![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]") |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
 Posted - November 20 2002 : 5:55:11 PM
|
Lainey,
Somewhere in our discussions either in email or on this board this French anti-sect law came up. So, for your information, this from the Council of Europe:
"Only the European Court of Human Rights can decide whether a June 2001 French law on sects is compatible with European human rights standards, the Assembly’s Standing Committee has declared. Some Assembly members had asked the Assembly to look into the law, concerned that it might be discriminatory and contravene European Convention rights to freedom of expression, religion and association which France has pledged to uphold. A Swiss legal expert subsequently concluded that the law was not incompatible with Council of Europe values - but he said this might have to be reconsidered in the light of national case-law once the act was applied. Adopting a report by Cevdet Akçali (Turkey, EDG) on freedom of religion and religious minorities in France, the committee said that only the Court could ultimately decide the question, but in the meantime, it invites the French Government to reconsider this law and to clarify the definition of the terms "offence" and "offender"."
A link to the full report by Akcali:
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=http%3A%2F%2Fassembly.coe.int%2F%2FDocuments%2FWorkingDocs%2Fdoc02%2FEDOC9612.htm
|
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
|
report to moderator
|
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - November 25 2002 : 11:22:45 PM
|
Thanks, Ilse, for this update. France's anti-cult laws are another road to the slippery slope, it seems. Thus far, the law has been used to strong-arm Christian Scientists (fyi- not Christian & not scientific) & in so doing, has opened up a pandora's box that smothers freedom of religion. If France can ban particular religious beliefs or cults how are they different from countries that practice sharia or prohibit any religion other than Islam?
It's interesting that the committee "invites" France to "reconsider" its laws & to define "offence" & "offender." Do they smell a rat? |
"Fides et Ratio" |
report to moderator  |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - November 27 2002 : 5:17:27 PM
|
I was wondering the same thing  There is a strong anti-Scientology mood in Western Europe, particularly in France and Germany. I don't have problems with that, but here the COE is certainly hinting very carefully at this law not being specific enough to prevent abuse. Also, the question is, is legislation the way to deal with this issue in the first place? |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - November 28 2002 : 2:12:39 PM
|
| I guess I see this more as the French discovering that the chickens come home to roost. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 01 2002 : 11:57:45 AM
|
Going into the EU project, the French had grand visions of ruling the roost in the European barnyard (just my opinion).
Now they're finding that the "chickens" have become empowered and jeopardize their sovereignty. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 04 2002 : 3:24:51 PM
|
They must have had some premonition when the UK joined
For the record, though, the Council of Europe is an independent human rights organization. It works with the EU, but isn't a part of it. |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 05 2002 : 9:16:00 PM
|
Oh, what a wicked web.
The next thing you know, the Brits will be drinking 500 ml instead of pints. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 06 2002 : 1:03:38 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
Oh, what a wicked web.
The next thing you know, the Brits will be drinking 500 ml instead of pints.
OMG...just DON't get me started!  Petrol in litres....weights in grams....wth was wrong with good old lbs and gallons?? hmmmm????
HM |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 06 2002 : 5:15:58 PM
|
Uh oh!
I wanted to reply to Scott: "ssssstttt!... Adele might hear!", but didn't get around to do it in time.  I knew it!!!
Anyway, this thread is not about the EU at all, but an entirely independent organization or subject. You all can open a new thread if you want to get to the bottom of "measures and their worth". It's just numbers as far as I am concerned. 
Ilse |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - December 06 2002 : 11:01:44 PM
|
quote:
Anyway, this thread is not about the EU at all, but an entirely independent organization or subject. You all can open a new thread if you want to get to the bottom of "measures and their worth". It's just numbers as far as I am concerned.
Rats & roosters, riddles & grams,
Weights & measure, litres & drams.
Wicked the webs, woven in France,
How much ale doth make a Brit dance?
You've got to admit, Ilse, this thread has been richly woven in wit. Might be worth a pound of flesh ... or is it grams?
quote:
Also, the question is, is legislation the way to deal with this issue in the first place?
Right. To ban or not to ban; that is the question!
(Sorry ... the underlying literary bites are getting to me.)
Back to the issue of France's anti-cult laws, how can a country that claims itself to be a free, democratic society justify the criminalizing of specific religious groups? Is this not a throwback to the days of the good old guillotine? During that revolution France's usurpers declared religion to be dead & its practioners to be condemned to prison or death. In its place, upon sacred altars, were placed 'stand-ins' for the 'goddess of reason.' The desecration, destruction, & death that stained France's once beautiful countryside has not entirely washed away - or so it seems.
I do know there has been a backlash against Christian Scientology in western Europe, but how banning might be seen as justifiable remains a mystery. Just a new twist on that fine old tradition of Bastille Day, perhaps, by new followers of the goddess?
|
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 08 2002 : 6:43:51 PM
|
I'm still a bit loath to lay aside the question of an international body attempting to dictate on the legality of laws passed with regard to the internal activities of a sovereign nation. I have a feeling it's integral to the larger question here.
But I have a feeling folks want to get down to brass tacks.
I looked through the material at Ilse's site. I haven't really digested the fine print. It seems to me the law rather neatly sidesteps the problems of defining a cult and defining a religion.
Where they seem to be in danger of running on a lee shore is with the "psychological subugation" thing.
Broadly applied, it could refer to almost any social, religious, political, corporate or military entity--starting with the family.
However, a degree of specificity seems to be provided by the fact that the law can only be applied when an organization, or it's leaders, have been convicted of certain already-existing laws in the criminal code, and even there there is provision for a "probation" of sorts for organizations in otherwise good standing.
This sounds pretty reasonable.
Of course the appointment of an "administrator" to an organization of the last sort could be a bit problematic.
I have a feeling I'm missing something... |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 09 2002 : 4:38:53 PM
|
quote:
I'm still a bit loath to lay aside the question of an international body attempting to dictate on the legality of laws passed with regard to the internal activities of a sovereign nation. I have a feeling it's integral to the larger question here.
Oh, that wasn't my intention, Scott.  You are right about that of course and it is part of the question. I was a bit worried that the COE would be seen as being an organization of the EU, instead of an independent group. I worded that badly, though. Forget I said it 
Ilse |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - December 10 2002 : 11:05:21 PM
|
quote:
I'm still a bit loath to lay aside the question of an international body attempting to dictate on the legality of laws passed with regard to the internal activities of a sovereign nation. I have a feeling it's integral to the larger question here.
quote:
Oh, that wasn't my intention, Scott. You are right about that of course and it is part of the question. I was a bit worried that the COE would be seen as being an organization of the EU, instead of an independent group. I worded that badly, though. Forget I said it
It is part of the question, and part of the problem. In this case particularly since France was one of the countries who not only sought & promoted a EU soon after WWII (correct me, Ilse, if wrong), but also a participating nation in the formation of the COE & signee to its laws regarding human rights & freedom of religion. Therefore, much like Iraq's current dilemma, if a nation agrees to particular terms or standards it shouldn't be too indignant when called to adhere to them.
There are several issues here then ... the right of France to legislate regarding religion/cults/sects; the right of international bodies to interfere, mandate, or overrule sovereign nations; the right of nations to create supernations & then contradict their laws;
the danger of France's law itself.
quote:
It seems to me the law rather neatly sidesteps the problems of defining a cult and defining a religion.
That's unacceptable since the law itself seeks to legislate, punish, or prohibit particular groups according to their religious affiliations.
quote:
Where they seem to be in danger of running on a lee shore is with the "psychological subugation" thing.
Broadly applied, it could refer to almost any social, religious, political, corporate or military entity--starting with the family.
A point well taken & rightly stated. Isn't this a 'clear & present danger' in itself? The ramifications of its own psychology is troubling enough.
quote:
However, a degree of specificity seems to be provided by the fact that the law can only be applied when an organization, or it's leaders, have been convicted of certain already-existing laws in the criminal code, and even there there is provision for a "probation" of sorts for organizations in otherwise good standing.
It opens the door for government harassment & pretty much guarantees inequality before the law. A particular group of unwanteds or misfits, such as Christian Scientists, can be scrutinized & dissected until 'criminality' in some form can be discovered, & when not in 'good standing', ie. not welcome, can then be prosecuted/persecuted, harrased, punished, & banned - all according to the mood of the day. It's dangerous ground for democracies. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 11 2002 : 06:55:26 AM
|
You worded it very well, Ilse. I wasn't criticizing, and I appreciate the distinction. I'd just like to reserve that issue.
But to get to the French law itself. Lainey has suggested that there is a "slippery slope" here, and I'm inclined to agree. If the law were American, there would be no question about it. France is a bit of a mystery to me, however.
I've seen elsewhere that the Mormon church and the Christian Scientists are on the French "dangerous cults" list.
These are both fairly well-regarded, but not totally unproblematic religions here.
The Mormon leadership long ago eschewed polygamy, which was a main sticking point with our government. However, there are still practitioners that adhere to the practice, and the government goes after some of them.
Why the French government sees the Mormons as dangerous, I have no idea. I can't see them having any objection to polygamy per se. ;)
However, in some cases the extra wives are underage--perhaps this has something to do with it?
Or is it the Mormon insistence on abstaining from alcohol? ;)
A really complicated issue with regard to the Christian Scientists over here is parental denial of medical assistance to their children when it is deemed necessary by medical wisdom. A really tough one to handle. There's an emphasis on on treatment of minors in the French law. Is this the sticking point?
The idea of appointing a civil administrator to oversee a recognized religion, much less banning it, would be extremely problematic over here and would seeem to be in direct contradiction to our concept of separation of church and and state. The Catholic church here has been under severe criticism here for it's handling of of sexual abuse of minors by some of the clergy. To my knowledge, none of the church leaders have been criminally charged, much less convicted. While it's difficult to see that happening, it's not inconceivable. Putting in a civil admininstrator to run the church, as the French law seems to allow, would be.
|
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!] |
© 1997-2025 - Mohican Press |
|
|
| Current Mohicanland page raised in 0.42 seconds |
 |
|
Human rights compatibility of French law on sects
