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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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 Posted - October 18 2002 : 2:18:15 PM
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Hello fellow Soldiers of the King. This forum will cover, but not be limited to, the types and quality of British/American Provincial (includes, "Gulp", milita) small arms (both firearms as well as 'Armes Blanche'). The following catagories are offered, to start the discussion:
1) The Long Land Musket Bore Firelock (A/K/A "Brown Bess")
2) The Light Infantry Carbine Bore Firelock
3) Rifles, Blunderbusses and other 'special purpose' firelocks
4) The Carbine Bore Firelock Pistol
5) The Pistol Bore Firelock 'Highland Dag'
6) The English Infantry Sword or 'Hanger'
7) The Scottish Baskethilt Broadsword and Backsword
8) Officer Swords
9) Pole Arms (Halberd, Espontoon, etc.)
10) The Light Infantry Axe and Tommahawk
11) The Bayonet (Socket & Plug)
12) Knives, Daggers, Dirks and other 'Last Ditch' type weapons
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 18 2002 : 9:32:52 PM
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Okay guys, the season is winding down and we can get to some serious 'chewing of the fat'. Lets start with thoughts on the Long Land Pattern Musket Bore Firelock.
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - October 19 2002 : 12:25:10 PM
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I've never handled one, so I don't have first hand experience with 'em, although I have studied them on paper. I'd love to see more of these in the F&I War reenacting community. I personally didn't want to pay the big bucks for a custom job, and didn't want to settle for a short land conversion, so I decided on a 1740's New England fowler for my Connecticut Ranger persona. I've recently heard about a company who promises to start shipping an affordable reproduction in late Nov. It looks pretty good, just need to drill the touch-hole, and costs only $495! You can check it out here:
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket6.htm
I 've been waiting for years for someone to produce a good reproduction of the Long Land with a price comparible to the Short Land. Hopefully this is the beginning of a trend to get more affordable Long Lands out there.
-CT•Ranger
"Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - October 19 2002 : 1:45:11 PM
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One of the men in my company, Pte. Ian MacIntyre, is also on the waiting list for that particular weapon. I own a Phil Cravener 1st model (Lock dated 1746), so I am eager to compare those two firelocks.
God Bless and Aim Straight,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 22 2002 : 02:00:41 AM
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I might also add that Mr. Cravener crafts an excellent copy of the circa 1759 Light Infantry Carbine Bore Firelock.
Your Humble Author,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 04 2002 : 11:54:54 PM
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On the subject of the Light Infantry Pattern Carbine Bore Firelock, it was a piece originally designed for Dragoon Regiments (Back when they were more like mounted infantry and less like cavalry) and for the gun and support crews of Royal Artillery Batteries. The bore was .62 caliber, later enlarged to .65 caliber. It was essenially a downsized and lightened Land Pattern, which handled more like a gentleman's fowler than a heavy duty arm of the infantry. Some light infantry companies adopted this piece after 1759, most notably the Light Company of the 42nd as well as the entire 77th Regiment (This according to returns dated 1760, listed in Howard Blackmore's "British Military Firearms 1650-1850"). It was noted that all of the hat companies of the 77th later exchanged these weapons, in favor of the Long Land Pattern. The reason most given was the lack of sturdy construction, making it prone to breakage at the wrist of the stock. Prior to the adoption of the Light Infantry Pattern Carbine Bore Firelock, a good number of Light Companies were adopting captured French Fusils, in lieu of the much larger and heavier Long Land Pattern Musket Bore Firelock.
Your Humble Author,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 08 2002 : 09:28:33 AM
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The Hanger, or the Infantry Sword, was a carry over from the earliest firearm equiped infantry. The period of the Seven Years War would see the decline and later discontinued use of this weapon, replaced by the practical Light Infantry Axe (Subject of a future article). The Hanger issued to the 'other ranks', was a curved short sword with a blade length of 24-26 inches. Its guard and hilt were of simple brass construction, and of various patterns depending on the whim of the regimental commander. These weapons were not issued by the Board of Ordinance, but instead purchased by the regimental commander who would be reimbersed by the Crown. All infantry regiments carried one variant or another, the exception was the Highland Regiments who used the Baskethilt Broadsword or Backsword (Subject of a future article). Some 'authorities' state that the Hanger was an unwieldly obsolete weapon, but in trained hands it could be most deadly. However, it was the development of the Socket Bayonet in the late 17th century, that would eventually make the Infantry Sword redundant.
Your Humble Author,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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May 23 2002
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Posted - November 09 2002 : 01:05:50 AM
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And how about the basket-hilt sword that was indigenous(did I spell that right?)to the highland regiments? EM
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - November 09 2002 : 6:31:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SgtMunro
...Prior to the adoption of the Light Infantry Pattern Carbine Bore Firelock, a good number of Light Companies were adopting captured French Fusils, in lieu of the much larger and heavier Long Land Pattern Musket Bore Firelock...
Would you mind elaborating on that one a bit, Sergeant? |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Thomas MacDonald
Pathfinder
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November 09 2002
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Posted - November 09 2002 : 9:12:15 PM
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British Military Basket-hilted sword , late 3rd, early 4th quarter, 18th century. Supplied by Dru Drury of London
British Military basket-hilted sword , 3rd quarter, 18th century. Supplied by Nathaniel Jefferys of London.
Another Jefferys supplied sword. The most common, and the plainest of the Jefferys-signed examples.
* Pics from : 'Swords For The Highland Regiments 1757-1784' , by Anthony Darling
Slàinte, Mac |
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten' |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - November 10 2002 : 01:15:59 AM
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Scott, might I refer you to Brenton Kemmer's "Redcoats, Yankees and Allies" (Pages 46 & 90) mentions of the use of captured French Arms in the L/I role, until enough L/I Carbines arrived in theater. I will have more reading for you, as soon as I check through my library. I hope this helps you.
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - November 10 2002 : 11:50:50 AM
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Glad you made it over, Mac.
(Mac is a friend of mine with a particular interest in baskethilts. Since I didn't think he has seen the new board yet, and since the subject came up, I suggested he come take a look.)
Sergeant--thanks for looking. I'm really just curious as to where the may have captured the arms, and how they talked the "higher-ups" into letting them use them in lieu of the regulation arms. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Thomas MacDonald
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Posted - November 10 2002 : 12:45:28 PM
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Hi Scott
Where there be baskethilt talk 'Ol Mac is soon to follow *g*
Thanks for the heads up , Mac
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - November 11 2002 : 12:35:19 AM
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Scott,
There is alot of speculation concerning the reason why the command staff would permit such a deviation from issue weapons. From what I've read from the Bouquet Papers, DeWitt Bailey's treatises as well as Blackmore, I can guess that the reasons for permitting are as follows:
1) A noticable shortage of sevicable arms availible for the North American Theater, prior to 1759. (The newest weapons were destined for the continent)
2) The superior design of the Fusil de Chasse, which the Artillery/Light Infantry Pattern Firelock design borrows from noticably.
3) Colonial gunsmiths familiar with this pattern, from working at various locales.
4) Ready availabilty, large numbers of the French Fusil pattern had been imported into Canada in the preceeding 20+ years.
5) Most importantly, the disbersment of such arms did not 'cut into' the already stretched operations/logistics budget of the theater commander.
I hope this helps, I will be getting back to you with a complete bibliography as soon as my schedule permits.
Your Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - November 11 2002 : 11:02:47 PM
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| Thanks, Sergeant. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - November 12 2002 : 5:49:06 PM
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No problem, Scott, and I promise to send you the rest of the information ASAP.
Your Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - November 12 2002 : 11:14:18 PM
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Now gentlemen, let us move onto the Baskethilted Broadsword and Backsword in use by highland soldiers. I would like to have our newcomer, Thomas MacDonald, take the 'point' on this discussion. So, Mr. MacDonald, I give the floor to you. As a fellow highlander, albeit a soldier in His Majesty's 42nd RHR (Please forgive me for that), I would be honored to have you lead the discussion.
Your Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Thomas MacDonald
Pathfinder
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Posted - November 13 2002 : 07:42:15 AM
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Thank you Sgt Munro
I'm pressed for time this morning, but will be back to join the ranks later .... I'll post this page from Anthony Darlings "Weapons Of The Highland Regiments 1740-1780" , to give us a bit more infomation on these British made baskethilts that were standard issue to the Regiments !
* One think to note is the overall decline in quality of these pieces , when compared to the fine Scottish hilted/German bladed basket-hilts of Glasgow & Stirling .... Production for the masses I suppose , and no doubt the bottomline £ ($) rearing it's ugly head !
Alba Gu Brath , Mac
quote:
Originally posted by SgtMunro
Now gentlemen, let us move onto the Baskethilted Broadsword and Backsword in use by highland soldiers. I would like to have our newcomer, Thomas MacDonald, take the 'point' on this discussion. So, Mr. MacDonald, I give the floor to you. As a fellow highlander, albeit a soldier in His Majesty's 42nd RHR (Please forgive me for that), I would be honored to have you lead the discussion.
Your Humble Servant,
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - November 14 2002 : 12:33:57 PM
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Brother MacDonald, I'm guessing that the hilt in the above image is a variant of the Glasgow. I have never been able to locate much history on the different types of baskethilt guard patterns. Can you give me some insight on the history of the Glasgow and Stirling designs. Some of the questions I have concerning these two major designs are as follows:
1) Which of the patterns are older?
2) Did the hammersmiths in those respective regions produce other variants on the same theme?
While we are on the subject of the Baskethilt Sword, I have some questions concerning the blade designs:
1) Which Baskethilt type is older, Broadsword or Backsword?
2) I understand that due to reasons of economy, the 42nd RHR discontinued the issuance of the Broadsword in favor of the Backsword (Like the one pictured above) sometime after The War of Austrian Succession (King George's War in the Americas). Can you tell me where I might find the documentation which gives the date(s)?
3) I've noticed on some reproductions the inscription 'Andrea Ferra' on the blade, what is the signifigance of this inscription?
4) Of the late period swords, which was superior Drury or Jefries?
Thank you, in advance, for any help and/or direction you can give me on this subject.
Your Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Pushmataha
Pathfinder
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October 20 2002
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Posted - November 14 2002 : 11:06:11 PM
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Well Sarge in Mac's absence I'll respond.. From all the info that I have read it appears that the backsword was the first variant of the baskethilt as it had evolved from the schiavona which was a backsword.. As far as the towns of Stirling or Glasgow I believe that Glasgow's swordmaking industry started first but I may be wrong.. As far as the Andrea Ferarra engraved on the blades.. Well most Scottish sword blades were made in Italy, Spain and Germany the blades were then sent to Glasgow or Stirling and were affixed to the different styles of baskets.. The Ferrara (Spanish) blades were the most sought after by the Highlanders.. Just my two cents..I'll leave the rest to Mac as I am no expert on Baskethilts just an admirer and collector of them...
Slainte !!  Hey Mac god bless the Honest Scots !! |
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"I think the Spirit, is the one thing we have to rely on. It has been handed to us as a live and precious coal. And each generation has to make that decision whether they want to blow on that coal to keep it alive or throw it away...Our language, our histories and culture are like a big ceremonial fire that's been kicked and stomped and scattered... Out in the darkness we can see those coals glowing. But our generation, whether in tribal government or wherever we find ourselves--Choctaw, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Creek, Seminole-- are coal gatherers. We bring the coals back, assemble them and breathe on them again, so we can spark a flame, around which we might warm ourselves." Gary White Deer, Chickasaw 1994 |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - November 15 2002 : 11:41:26 AM
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Wulitpallat Pushmataha, thank you for the information. I realized that some of the blades were made in Germany, but I did not know that Italian and Spanish blades were used as well.
P.S.- I like your signature line, one thing I enjoy about Native American speech and stories are the colorful metaphors, they help place your mind's eye into a position of understanding.
Your Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Pushmataha
Pathfinder
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Posted - November 15 2002 : 6:31:15 PM
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Hey Sarge.. Chahta imanumpa ish anumpola hinla ho? ( Do you speak Choctaw?) Yeah I love that quote by Gary Whitedeer it really sums it all up about our culture.. Here's some sites for some excellent Scottish made Baskethilts..
www.macallenarmourers.com/basket_hilts.htm -- Made by descendants of Walter Allen of Stirling one of the great sword makers of the 1700's..
www.armourclass.co.uk |
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"I think the Spirit, is the one thing we have to rely on. It has been handed to us as a live and precious coal. And each generation has to make that decision whether they want to blow on that coal to keep it alive or throw it away...Our language, our histories and culture are like a big ceremonial fire that's been kicked and stomped and scattered... Out in the darkness we can see those coals glowing. But our generation, whether in tribal government or wherever we find ourselves--Choctaw, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Creek, Seminole-- are coal gatherers. We bring the coals back, assemble them and breathe on them again, so we can spark a flame, around which we might warm ourselves." Gary White Deer, Chickasaw 1994 |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - November 15 2002 : 8:26:22 PM
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As long as we're waiting for Mac, I might as well throw something into the pot and let him come along behind and clean up.
A caveat: Most of this is from my admittedly fallible memory--hours spent in discussion on this medium when I should have been doing other things or, worse yet, surfing expeditions. So apply the grain of salt.
The origin of the Scottish baskethilt is still a bit murky, but thanks to the work of Claude Blair and others, their is a pretty distinct family line of English/Scottish (yes, I said English) baskethilts going back at least as far as the 1540's. As the earliest schiavonas are just starting to get underway at the same time, it is unlikely that the latter derived from the former, but rather were paralell developments. The schiavona derived from early swords of a similar type used by the Dalmatians/Venetians that lacked the basket.
It is important to remember that significant and dramatic changes in swords were underway at this time. Sword carry by civilians saw the development of the rapier, with it's increasingly complex basket. The use of full armour by soldiers was declining. Where once a mail or plate gauntlet provided protection to the hand, a basket was increasingly substituted.
The English/Scottish baskets bear a lot of similarity to hilts used in Germany and the Lowlands during this period, and it is likely that they derive from these.
Having said that, there is a strong if perhaps outdated tradition that the northern baskethilt comes from the schiavona:
quote:
In fact, other than Brescia and Pontebba, other centres where cut and thrust weapons were produced were the two little villages of Ceneda and Serravalle, now united in a little town with another name: Vittorio Veneto. Using the water of the Mischio River both for mills and power, it was told that the same water was special to temper the blades. The well-known sword Schiavona" was made in great quantity there and in the zone of Belluno, where worked a famous gunsmith, Andrea Ferrara, a name known also in Scotland; and the basket hilted broad sword, typical of Scotland, may be considered a variant of the Schiavona".
(From: Tiberio Moro: Some Considerations on the Armament of the Republic of Venice)
Which I suppose we can use as a segue to discussion of the legendary Andre/Andria Ferara/Ferrara (and several other spellings, or as the Scots were wont to say, Andrew Ferara. It's a fairly safe bet there was an Andrea Ferrara, and perhaps a whole family or families of them. Ferara derives, I believe, from the latin for iron (as with farrier) and means "ironworker" or Smith. (Andrew happens to mean "manly"--who better for a Scot to purchase a sword from than a Manly Smith?) In any event, legends are notoriously hard to pin down, and Andrew is no exception. Here's one version:
quote:
At length a great armourer arose in the Highlands, who was able to forge armour that would resist the best Sheffield arrow-heads, and to make swords that would vie with the best weapons of Toledo and Milan. This was the famous Andrea de Ferrara, whose swords still maintain their ancient reputation. This workman is supposed to have learnt his art in the Italian city after which he was called, and returned to practise it in secrecy among the Highland hills. Before him, no man in Great Britain is said to have known how to temper a sword in such a way as to bend so that the point should touch the hilt and spring back uninjured. The swords of Andrea de Ferrara did this, and were accordingly in great request; for it was of every importance to the warrior that his weapon should be strong and sharp without being unwieldy, an |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
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Posted - November 15 2002 : 8:54:38 PM
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Oh, one other thing.
While there may indeed have been an Italian smith producing phenomal blades for the Scots, the majority of the English and Scottish blades bearing the name are believed to have come from Germany, and probably never saw an Italian.
Scotland in particular was something of a "niche" market for the Rhineland makers, and they met their customers needs with specialized blades. Many Scots referred to their claymores as "my Ferara". |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Thomas MacDonald
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Posted - November 15 2002 : 10:48:21 PM
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Hi Guys,
Great discussion .... sorry I'm late !
Excellent work Scott ( as always ) !
John Wallace , in his book "Scottish Swords & Dirks" , covers many of the questions ... So rather than listen to me ramble I shall post up a few pages from said book !
And on the Ferara question :
As far as the Glasgow & Stirling designs are concerned ... hard to say which actually was first ??
If you go by the signed hilts , and thier dating( Glasgow having the flat fluted bar design, and Stirling the round bar ),
I'd probably say Glasgow ....
Guys like John Simpson 1 (senior) was admitted to the Incorporation 22 Aug 1683 . He had the likes of John Allan (senior) as a Journeyman (booked 1702), who went on to fame in Stirling ( 1714) , with his incredible son Walter (1732) , and the younger John Allan 2 (1741)
John Allan learned well , and even incorporated the Glasgow style in some of his amazing Stirling works
(as did his sons ).
But in saying that , someone, or some baskethilt, will come along and prove me in error *g*
Slàinte friends , Mac
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Thomas MacDonald
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Posted - November 16 2002 : 09:12:20 AM
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On the question concerning which baskethilt is superior , Drury or Jefferys ?
According to Darlings book "Swords For The Highland Regiments 1757-1784" he writes:
'Surviving examples of basket-hilted swords by Drury are far more numerous than those of Nathaniel Jefferys. In essence, swords signed by these men are identical except for the blade markings: Drury examples bear the crowned cypher and "Drury". One small difference that I have noted is that Jeffery-signed swords of this later pattern have a small, circular cut-out in the center of the junction plates, or where the apices of the four triangles meet to form a rudimentary maltese cross. The piercings on the guard of the Drury example illustrated in this paper are larger than those of the Jefferys. This should not be construed as a means of identification and only indicate the work of a different guard maker.
The Jefferys and Drury-signed examples, so similar, were probably manafactured during the decade of the 1770's.'
Jefferys was succeeded by the firm of Dru Drury & Son but it appears that Drury and Jefferys had some kind of partnership since around 1770 as the directories record Dru Drury at the same address from that year.'(32 Strand at the corner of Villiers Street in Westminster)
I take this as they were about the same quality-wise !
Mac |
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British/American Provincial Small Arms
