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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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 Posted - April 13 2007 : 12:11:25 AM
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| I visited the site last summer and the Ranger, Brian Reedy, told me that was not the fort. The fort consisted of earth works which are still visible. The circular structure with the building inside was to protect the supplies, not from the French, but from the Virginians! Must have been quite a crew. But then what can you expect of l'Anglois, n'est pas? |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - April 13 2007 : 07:15:26 AM
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| Makes sense, those Virginians always were a shady lot, - still are! Of course the question begs, - can "Ranger Reedy" be trusted? ;) |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - April 13 2007 : 08:38:03 AM
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| Ranger Reedy? I don't know. He does live in Pennsylvania, but they are a lot like the Virginians, n'est pas? |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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richfed
Sachem
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Posted - April 15 2007 : 11:27:22 AM
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| Ranger Reedy is correct ... that was the supply depot. Bad, bad place to make a stand Georgie ... Mister Washington learned some hard lessons during the F&I War. Served him well in later days, as we know! |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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Posted - April 15 2007 : 12:29:10 PM
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Ranger Reedy was correct, the circular log structure was to house supplies, since it was not large enough to house but very few of the troops.
The ring of earthworks weren't high enough to protect anyone who stood up, and the depression behind the earthworks filled with water during the downpour that ensued during the battle. A lot of the Virginians' powder was wet and wouldn't ignite. Plus can you imagine lying in a puddle of water completely soaked and trying to put up a fight? Plus, the wet wool clothing on the Virginians probably felt like it weighed a ton. Flight in this heavy clothing was out of the question, plus where were they going to run to; they were surrounded on all sides. Capture by my Shawnee people wasn't a "good" option. They must have felt completely miserable. And the site chosen for the fight by Washington was on the lowest ground in the area. The French and the Indians stood on the high ground above the "fort", and could target anyone lying in the now water-filled "moat" that was suppossed to protect the Virginians. French soldiers and more Indians surrounded them in all directions in the woods. They were facing a very "bad hair day" if they continued the fight!
From the hill above the "fort", the French and the Indians had a plain view of all of them huddled below them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, only better. British Lt. Col. Washington was literally a "babe in the woods" at this engagement. He would do no better for the rest of this war.
My Shawnee 4x great-grandfather, Willenwah aka Great Eagle, fought at this battle, and again the following year in 1755 against British Col. Washington and British Gen. Braddock at the Battle of the Monongahela, a veritable slaughter of British and colonial British Americans. My Shawnee people, who caught the British and Americans in a cross-fire, allowed Col. Washington to live through the carnage at the Monongahela. They could have easily killed him.
Ironically, I am married to one of George Washington's "kin". My wife is descended from the Lee's of Stratford Hall, in Virginia, one of whom accompanied Washington and his Virginians to the Great Meadows. Thomas Lee, who wasn't at the battle, was a founder of the hated Williamsburg Ohio Company whose purpose was to claim our Shawnee land for themselves. We would have little mercy on captured Virginians (Longknives) from this point forward.
Had the arrogant British Gen. Braddock not insulted my Shawnee people, as well as a few other tribes, we would have sided with the British, and the outcome of the conquest of Fort Dusquesne may have been quite different.
The outcome of a lot of historical events is sometimes determined by very insignificant and interesting events, and some very stupid decisions.
I have sprinkled tobacco on the grave site of British Gen. Braddock at Hopwood, Pa. Although he was an ancient enemy who was very stubborn, and reluctant to heed good advice, he was still a "warrior", and to be respected! He simply was not suited for warfare in the forests of North America. |
Ken Lonewolf |
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lonewolf
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Posted - April 15 2007 : 1:36:23 PM
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Richfed is correct that George Washington, in spite of never winning an engagement in the F&I War, learned many lessons that would serve him well in the Revolution. He resigned his commission, a complete failure. Some are broken by failure, but in Washington's case, failure made him stronger. We owe George Washington a debt of gratitude for his service to our country in the Revolution. He persevered where many others would have given up (many did give up and go home). He endured many hardships and setbacks that would have broken a lesser individual, but thankfully, he stayed the course. We are America today because he never gave up!
A white 4x great-grandfather of mine, Ezekial Chambers, served with Gen. Washington in many engagements. He was with him at Valley Forge in the very cold winter of 1777-78. My Oneida ancestors broke with Iroquois Six Nations British alliance and brought food to Gen. Washington's starving army at Valley Forge. The soldiers at that place were reduced to boiling and eating their leather shoes, gun straps, horse harnesses, and anything else made of leather. The food brought by the Oneida may well have turned the tide of that war.
The food was definitely appreciated by the American soldiers. The rest of the British leaning Iroquois Confederation didn't appreciate the Oneida going over to the American side. There are hard feelings among the other five nations of Iroquois for the Oneida's actions to this very day.
My Shawnee people in western Pennsylvania sided with the British in order to stop the white flow on the then "western frontiers". My white 4x great-grandfather, Sgt. John James Black, serving with Col. Lochry's Westmoreland Militia from the Pittsburgh area, was killed fighting my Shawnee ancestors in August of 1781 at the Battle of Lochry's Run.
British allied Mohawk Chief Joseph Brant (Thayandenegea)fought in support of my Shawnee people in this engagement on the Ohio River.
On his orders, Mohawk Chief Joseph Brant prevented the slaughter of the prisoners.
I honor those of my family who fought on both sides of these wars. They were all fighting for what they believed in. Can we ask more of any warrior? |
Ken Lonewolf |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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Posted - April 18 2007 : 10:53:25 AM
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That is so interesting! And to think people wonder in there thinking everything is historically accurate when it's far from it.
I would love to see this place.
How cool it is that you know so much of your family's history, Lonewolf. I have always believed in having a solid foundation in knowing your ancestory. It helps us to understand their lives, appreciate the fruit we reap from their sweaty brow, and even defines who we are.
Kudos to you!
None of my kin were related to George Washington or any other well known man in the eastern wars.
They lived (and to this day still do) in southern portions of KY. To name Russell Springs(mom), Bradsfordville and Somerset(dad).
During the wars they went to the hills with their sawed off shotguns and just waited for someone to make trouble. A good number of them did join the fight after a while but a good many stayed behind.
Even though they weren't officers or leaders or famous they were fierce. We are known for the hot-tempered blood in our family (I thank the Irish, German, and Blackfoot for that). But it serves us well in war.
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - April 21 2007 : 6:52:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf
My Oneida ancestors broke with Iroquois Six Nations British alliance and brought food to Gen. Washington's starving army at Valley Forge. <snip> The food brought by the Oneida may well have turned the tide of that war.
OK. I just have to say something about this, now that I have a few moments. I really need to set the record straight on a couple of things here.
First, let me say that I totally respect and honor the Oneida Nation. Without question, the Oneida Nation was the brand new Nation of America's very first ally in war. However, this did not happen at Valley Forge, as Lonewolf implies. It happened on August 6, 1777, which was nearly 5 months before General Washington and his army arrived at Valley Forge.
What happened on August 6 of 1777? The Battle of Oriskany in the Mohawk Valley of New York. At that battle, about 60 Oneida braves joined with General Herkimer's Tryon County Militia in their attempt to go to the relief of Fort Stanwix, which was under seige by a part of the British army under St. Leger, and Chief Joseph Brant and his Mohawk and Seneca warriors. They never made it to the fort, but were ambushed near the Oneida village of Oriska by Brant and his warriors. There, in that terrible, bloody battle, those Oneida braves fought side by side with my German Palatine ancestors against their Iroquois brothers. There, the great Iroquois Confederacy was broken forever.
In January of 1778, Washington recommended that 200-300 Indians be recruited as scouts or for harrassing operations. Congress approved his request in March, giving him permission to enlist up to 400 Indians. This plan never materialized, but on May 14, a group of about 100 Oneida braves did arrive at Valley Forge. By that time, the French had finally come on board (thereby officially becoming America's second ally in war) and Washington felt the braves were not needed.
Now, the fact that the Oneida contingent did not arrive until the middle of May pretty much refutes Lonewolf's statement. They may, indeed, have had some food with them, however, it was probably not enough to make much of a difference to 12,000 men. Also, by that time, the food situation had pretty much been resolved and the men were no longer starving.
As for the last statement in Lonewolf's quote above, the fact that the small group of Oneida braves may have brought a little food with them, is not at all what turned the tide of the Revolutionary War. What did that was the arrival of the self-styled Baron Friedrich von Steuben. This man single-handedly turned a rag-tag so-called army of 12,000 men into a lean, mean, fighting machine. This army, that had had so very few triumphs and seemed to be so constantly on the run from the enemy, came out of Valley Forge in May and with great success, stood up against and soundly routed out the British at the Battle of Monmouth. That.... is what turned the tide of the war.
Oh... and by the way... George Washington had no descendants. Let's stop revising history, shall we? |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - April 22 2007 : 4:52:22 PM
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| Very interesting post WW - thanks. |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - April 24 2007 : 11:22:06 PM
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There has been some recent articles on cheek cell DNA and apparently they are trying to prove G.Washington had descendants by verifying that he was the father of West Ford.
Most people who claim ancestry to Washington usually mean Ford since many, many, many people CAN verify that.
I found this through Wikipedia: Dick Eastman Online
7/18/2001 - Archive
DNA and the Legacy of West Ford
Historians and genealogists have long maintained that George Washington had no children. However, the descendants of West Ford maintain otherwise. West Ford was born in 1784 or 1785 on the Bushfield Plantation in Westmoreland County, Virginia, to Venus, a mulatto slave woman owned by George Washington's brother, John Augustine Washington and his wife, Hannah. According to Ford family oral history, Venus told her mistress Hannah that George Washington was her child's father. Historians dispute this claim, suggesting that one of Washington's nephews may have fathered the boy West.
West Ford grew up on Bushfield Plantation in John Washington’s household. In the years 1785 to 1791, George Washington frequently visited the Bushfield Plantation. During these visits, West Ford served as Washington's personal attendant. Washington took him riding and hunting, and Ford often accompanied him to Christ Church, where he was provided with a private pew. Washington became President of the United States in 1791 and did not visit Bushfield Plantation again.
West Ford moved to the Mount Vernon plantation after the death of Martha Washington in 1802. He was freed on his twenty-first birthday in 1805 or 1806. In 1985, Donald Sweig wrote in the Fairfax Chronicles, "In his role as overseer at Mount Vernon, Ford had considerable independence and responsibility." The Washington family treated him as a privileged servant. Ford's children were educated in the estate schoolhouse along with the Washington children. West Ford became the first tomb guard for George Washington's gravesite. Three generations of Fords would also hold the title of tomb guard at the Mount Vernon plantation.
That was a lot of favortism played to Ford from Washington. Looks probable.
They say modern DNA technology may soon be able to prove or disprove this Ford Family oral history.
Right now they are trying to obtain rights to take DNA samples from Washington's and Ford's graves. (Absolutely disgusting and disrespectful, IMO.)
Needless to say they are running into problems for obvious reasons.
My only question is why bother? What is it going to prove, outside of putting an end to a 223 year old rumor? It's a bit late for child support!
Also, Lonewolf, I noticed something in your earlier posts that I wanted to ask you about - without malice, of course - you mentioned that you had three 4x great-grandfathers (2white, 1shawnee). I was wondering how that was possible. I know of some people, like my Native husband, who do have three. Two are blood relation and the third is the blood relative of his 1/2 brother but there's no direct link between him and my husband. Is it the same for you?
For more information about West Ford, look at "The Legacy of West Ford" at: westfordlegacy.com. The information about possible DNA analysis can be found at: westfordlegacy.com/mvmtg/qa.html.
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lonewolf
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Posted - May 17 2007 : 8:37:37 PM
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Going back about two hundred and fifty year to three hundred years, we all have many grandfathers coming into the family from many lines. These lines merge in the early 1900's. My wife is in the lines of the Lees of Virginia, which includes their cousin, George Washington. Martha is the one who had the children, not George. He is only a "cousin" and not a direct ancestor, but still a family member. Although, George did have a black son named Ford. I married into this line. Although not direct ancestors, they are my daughters' direct ancestors, along with all of my lines.
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Ken Lonewolf |
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lonewolf
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Posted - May 17 2007 : 8:50:17 PM
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Interesting to find out the dates of the Oneidas bringing food to Valley Forge. The Oneidas were recently honored for this deed by the people at Valley Forge, so something must have happened back there? I will stand corrected on the dates.
I am interested in this family history from our family point of view. Historical facts from this time period are sometimes a bit "skewed" depending on who did the telling.
I appreciate the input from all of you. It will correct some of the misconceptions that I have about some events. All history books don't read the same, as well as family stories that get told a bit different with the telling. Or told too many times by too many people.
As far as George Washington having a black son, it is interesting but certainly doesn't change history, nor does it detract from the accomplishments of George Washington. I don't believe that George made any "child custody payments". LOL! I have Indian cousins who are part black. They descend from a black adopted female child of one of my "grandfathers", Chief White Peter of the Oneidas back there in the late 1700's. They are part of my family. We run the gamut of colors. No problem with me! |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - May 18 2007 : 11:36:59 AM
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Cool! I've only got as far back 1868 on my father's side but do have cousins who have taken it waayyyyyyy waaaayyyyyy back to nearly 1500's. Ancestory is really detailed but well worth the knowing.
We have a rainbow of colors in our family as well. My 3xgreat grandmother was blackfoot (from MT) and my sister found a cherokee relative by chance. She walked into a store on the reservation that had our family's name on it and asked. Sure enough we share a common relative!
Then my hubby is Mayan, by brother in law is 1/2 cherokee. Yes...we Gribbins women like our indians .
I even discovered another relative that I worked with. We were at lunch talking about ancestory and I mentioned my blackfoot grandmother and her eyes popped open. Come to find our her sister married her 3xgreat-grandfather. She was of african decent other than that but it was really wild finding a cousin that way.
Ancestory is really interesting indeed.
They say you are related to 1 our of 7 people you meet.
With the way things are present day I wouldn't doubt it.
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RedFraggle
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Posted - May 18 2007 : 2:08:42 PM
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I envy people who can trace their family trees back as far as some of you guys can. My family ancestry is so muddled (thanks to no record-keeping) and HUGE that it would take the patience of Job to sort it all out.
Most of my dad's family immigrated to the US in the 1800's and had no contact with old-world family members after that. Who knows how many relatives I have in Europe. I know only that they came from Germany, Switzerland, and Ireland. My dad's dad claims Cherokee descent, but his father died very young without leaving any records.
On my mom's side the descent is primarily English. My mom's mother claims to be a diret descendant of Oliver Cromwell (Cromwell was her maiden name, but who knows if her claim is true). My mom's father was the son of a man who mantained that he had Native American descent and also claimed to have known Sitting Bull; his father was an officer in the Confederate army.
That's all I know. I have a feeling that all those "claims" on my mom's side of the family are false. Maybe one day I'll have the time and resources to trace it all down. For now all I can say is "maybe." |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - May 22 2007 : 1:00:03 PM
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Light, I noticed that you asked, if I understand your post correctly, how a person could have 3 great-great-great-great-grandfathers, as Lonewolf mentioned. Actually, unless there was family inter-marriage somewhere along the line, you have a total of 32 great-great-great-great-grandfathers. And 32 great-great-great-great-grandmothers! That's a total of 64 individual grandparents -- in that generation alone! -- going back 6 generations from yourself! Pretty amazing, isn't it?
I would just like to comment on this "story" that George Washington had a child or children by someone other than his wife, Martha. I do not believe this is true, or even possible. And I will tell you why I think this way. It is my theory that George Washington was sterile.
Here are the facts:
1. Martha Washington was fertile. She came into the marriage having borne four babies. She was "proven."
2. George and Martha were both in their mid-twenties when they married in 1759. They were young, passionate, and it is well known that they adored each other and had a very loving marriage. If it had been possible, there would have been pregnancies. As far as I know, there were none even conceived.
3. George Washington, although tall, handsome and physically strong in appearance, was a somewhat sickly man through much of his life. Here is a list of the illnesses he had endured prior to his marriage:
Diptheria -- as a child under the age of 17
Malaria, contracted while living in Barbados -- age 17, with a number of recurring episodes through his life.
Smallpox, also contracted while living in Barbados and a very severe case -- age 19
Tuberculosis -- age 19, from which he obviously recovered
Malaria recurrence -- age 20
Dysentery, possibly caused by something he picked up in the tropics -- several severe bouts, beginning at age 23
So, I fully believe (until proven wrong!) that the many fevers George experienced during his youth caused him to become sterile. The severe case of smallpox alone at age 19, which left his face deeply scarred, would have easily done this.
George Washington, in my opinion, had no descendants because he could not reproduce. |
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Obediah
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 Posted - May 22 2007 : 1:13:34 PM
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Since George Washington didn't have any legitimate children and since he is the father of our country, what does that make us?? 
BTW, that was an excellent post, WW.  |
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Light of the Moon
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Posted - May 23 2007 : 9:02:33 PM
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Obi, are you calling us bastards?!
You know, it's plausible, WW.
Thing is no one knows for certain and prooving it seems rather pointless. Like I said it would only stop an old rumor.
C'est la vie! |
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blackfootblood
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Posted - June 07 2007 : 8:10:55 PM
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| Yeah Ft. Nec. was pretty neat. I'm from Somerset County, Pennsylvania so I think I've been there about three times. Twice for a school field trip. Wasn't too far away from were I lived. Anyhow, not much to see there, just a bunch of stick coming out of the ground in the shape of a circle. But netherless, it had a pretty important role in history. Respect goes out to the guys that fought there. Two other places that I went to: Ft. Ligonier and Ft. Bedford. They were also some interesting places to go. They had alot more to see and some great information, not only about the war but also about the colonist that populated that area. (My stomping grounds!) South-Western Pennsylvania has some great historic places to go. Lots of F-I war sights and also a few Rev. war sights. My hometown of Berlin, Pennsylvania we celebrate every year the Whiskey Rebellion. It's full of re-enactors, ole time cookin, and lots of other historic events from the era. "Don't tread on me." |
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain!"
"Live well, love much, laugh often!" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - June 07 2007 : 9:13:00 PM
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quote:
Anyhow, not much to see there
Oh but there is. You can walk around the fort and see where the earth works were constructed, why the placed it beside the creek, the profile of the land which determined their fate, what it must have looked like to the men inside. Then you can walk to the edge of the woods and see what the French saw, and what it must have looked like to them. Then try to find the spot where Philemon Waters was the sentry and fired the first shot. Some say he killed three men with the first shot, some say five. Just read the account of the battle and try to imagine how it all played out. Then there is the Ranger/Interpreter Brian Reedy. He and his assistant put on a great demonstration. And in the museum and gift shop you can buy a realistic copy of the surrender document signed by Mackay and Washington, where they admit Ensigne Joumonville was assassinated. I enjoyed it!
And don't forget Joumonville's Glenn is just down the road. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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RedFraggle
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Posted - June 07 2007 : 9:21:44 PM
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| Is it true that the surrender document was in French, which Washington didn't understand? So he admitted a lot more than maybe he was intending? I think I read that the other day.... |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - June 07 2007 : 9:26:36 PM
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| Yes. That is true. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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blackfootblood
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Posted - June 07 2007 : 9:26:49 PM
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| I agree with you, Fitz, there is alot to see there. I guess what I meant to say was there wasn't much to see referring to building and structures. It's not all fancified like alot of other historical places. My bad. |
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"Live well, love much, laugh often!" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - June 08 2007 : 07:47:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RedFraggle
Is it true that the surrender document was in French, which Washington didn't understand? So he admitted a lot more than maybe he was intending? I think I read that the other day....
The actual document uses the variation of the French word for assassinate twice.
"Comme notre intention n'a jamais été de troubler la Paix et la Bonne armonie qui régnoit entre les deux Princes amis, mais seulement de venger L'assasin qui a été fait sur un de nos officier porteur d'une sommation et sur son escorte, comme aussy d'empecher aucun Etablissement sur les terres du Roy mon maitre"
and
"Que comme les Anglois ont en leur pouvoir un officier, deux Cadets et Généralement les prisonniers qu'ils nous ont faits dans l'assasinat du Sr de Jumonville, et qu'ils promettent de les renvoyer avec Sauve garde jusqu'au fort Duquesne situé sur la Belle Rivière, et que pour sûreté de cet article ainsi que de ce traitté."
Even if you don't know a word of French, it is pretty clear what the document intends to say. Did Van Bramm fail to understand this? Not likely. Also remember that the first signature on the document is that of James Mackay, a Captain in the regular British Army. It is most difficult to believe they did not know what they were signing, expecially in light of the other "fictions" that were sent back to Governor Dinwiddie concerning the Joumonville affair. The document does not say that Washington assassinated Joumonville, but merely that Joumonville was assassinated. I am sure everyone know who actually did it. What it comes down to was that Mackay and Washington were in a tight spot, could not see a way out, and did not want what happened to Joumonville to happen to them. Coulon de Villiers, on the other hand, was in something of a tight spot of his own. He could not reasonably expect his Indian allies, which was most of his force, to stay for a protracted seige, he was low on supplies, and decided to negotiate. These were great terms for Mackay and Washington, so they took them and tried to explain them away later. |
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RedFraggle
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Posted - June 08 2007 : 12:45:01 PM
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| Thanks! That was really interesting. And it gave me a chance to flex my (admittedly teeny-weeny) French muscles. I'm hoping to learn to speak the language one day, but for now I'm content with a passable reading knowledge. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - June 08 2007 : 2:57:58 PM
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Check out this link:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/fone/capitulation.htm
So James says to George, "Looks bad! What do you think?"
And George says, "Let's sign it. We can blame it on Van Bramm's translation. Heck, we will even give them Van Bramm as a hostage in exchange for the Joumonville prisoners' release. You know Dinwiddie will never let them go. We will never see Van Bramm again, so no one will ever question him. They will probably scalp and burn him anyway."
James says, "I love it when a plan comes together! Let's do it! Someday George, you will make a great President."
"What's a President, James?"
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"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Fort Necessity, ....
