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Lurking Huron3088
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 Posted - July 14 2004 : 12:00:23 PM
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Poll Question:
Hey guys.... ever wondered what would have happened if the tragic pair had lived?? Would Alice have stayed or returned to London? And for what reasons?? Just a thought... : )
In my opinion, she would have stayed....partially because of Uncas..and oh well...we all know her sister is going to stay...so I guess she'll stay because of that too...
What do you think??
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Diane B.
Colonial Militia
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Posted - July 14 2004 : 2:56:07 PM
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While the script for LOTM included additional scenes between Uncas & Alice & hinted at a deeper relationship between them, I saw nothing in the finished film itself that would lead me to believe that Alice "loved" Uncas. Yes, she looked to him as her rescuer after she had been taken away by Maugua & the others, and naturally she was upset to see him die - along with what she certainly thought was her last hope of being rescued - but I do not believe that she loved him. If Alice alone had lived, or if Alice and Uncas had both survived, I believe Alice would have remained in America but I don't think Uncas would have been her reason for staying. Her father was dead so there was no reason for her to return to London, and staying in America would mean that she would still have Cora to help look after her.
By the way, I have read quite a lot of posts recently that refer to Uncas staring longingly at Alice as they climb the falls along the river & have interpreted "that look" as further proof of Uncas' love for Alice. If you look at that shot of Uncas closely - and all of you Uncas fans will certainly not have a problem doing that!  - then you will notice a couple of unique things about that shot. For one thing, Uncas' earring is in his other ear & for another, the background in that shot is blurred & out of focus - totally different from the rest of the Riverwalk scene. Somewhere on this Board, buried deep in another post somewhere, are some comments from the camera person who actually shot that footage. If my memory serves me correctly, this person was trying out a different camera and/or lens one day and shot that brief footage of Uncas. This scene was not shot as part of the film but they wound up using it, anyway. I must say, it probably has as much to do with fueling the the "Uncas loved Alice" discussions as any other scene in the movie - planned or not! |
Rattlesnake Woman
"The earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth." - Chief Seattle
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UncasLover13
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Posted - July 14 2004 : 8:47:30 PM
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I think that she would have stayed for Uncas. It was obvious how he felt about her..but you didn't know her feelings for him until the end. I mean, she could have ran and jumped off any part of the cliff, but she didn't. She chose a place that she knew she'd end up beside Uncas. You know what I mean? Hopefully I'm not confusing anyone..;)
-UL13 |
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jlee
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 Posted - July 14 2004 : 11:57:49 PM
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| i agree with you, uncaslover13. she really did love him, she just didnt show it very much because for one, the director didnt want her to. (which annoys me, because i dont think it would have taken away from the cora-hawkeye thing at all) but the main thing is that she is naturally shy and quiet, and 16. at the end she finaly shows her love by following him to her death. which is excactly what i would have done. |
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Mohicana
Lost in the Wilderness
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 Posted - August 27 2004 : 11:52:17 AM
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| Hi! I consider Alice is really young to know how to feel but I think that she starts being in love with him because of his way of living or simply because he is brave and takes care of herself. Jlee I agree with you, she followed him because she loved him her way. If they both had lived, Alice had known how he was indeed and she had stayed there forever. |
Carol ;-) |
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Jacy
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Posted - September 01 2004 : 04:45:51 AM
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hope you feel welcomed Mohicana everyone on this site is v nice!
I like to think they would have stayed together, Alice wouldn't have had anything to go back to England for really assuming Cora stays with Hawkeye - which you can't really doubt that she did.
Thing is I think she'd struggle with the rough and harsh life a lot more than Cora. She would need a strong man like Uncas to help her through everything, he would have been the guy to show her how to do everything so losing him was like losing everything - her last glimmer of hope snuffed out. Was she brave to jump? I think so!
What I would like to know is do you really think Uncas should have run off like that? If he had waited then nasty old Magua and his Huron pals would have only been a little further on and he would have had his dad and his half brother to back his heroics up. The thing with Native American Indians - so I am lead to believe is that they tended to run away in battle because it was better to run away and 'fight again another day' so that in itself makes Uncas's actions out of character and more rash - making his feelings very clear for the fragile little girl that is Alice.
I also think that Uncas had a soft spot for John Cameron's wife - or at least was very fond of her - perhaps Alice is a younger version of her??
Jacy x |
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chasis_22
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Posted - September 15 2004 : 12:11:35 PM
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| She would have stayed because 1= Cora stayed, 2= she loved Uncas, 3= no one left in london, and 4= she grew up alot when she went through the whole ordeal of the war. I think she would have been very happy had she lived and stayed. |
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Lurking Huron4253
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Posted - September 21 2004 : 09:45:58 AM
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 Alice
She would have stayed...
because:
1) she would not have felt secure enough to
return to England 'alone' and was also totally
bonded and perhaps dependent? on her sister.
(although if her sister returned I believe she
would have, too. - prob. weren't close relatives
there left)
2) she was 'young' but loved him.
Just my opinion...
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Marg222
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Posted - October 01 2004 : 06:54:50 AM
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I think she would deffinitly return to London. She will never get used to a life in the wilderness. She is used to welth. Besides, I don't think that she really loved uncas... He gave her protection and held her in hard times, maybe she had a crush on him, but it would never have worked.. I'm sure of that. Uncas needed someone who was more experienced in life.. Alice just wasn't..
lots of love
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I do not call myself subject too much at all... -Hawkeye |
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Lurking Huron0301
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Posted - October 01 2004 : 3:29:50 PM
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| Er, excuse me if I'm out of order, but Alice DID live (at least in the book. I haven't seen the movie, but if it changed this part of the plot it went over the top). It was Cora who was killed by one of Magua's henchmen. Alice lived, and was destined to marry Heyward. In the book, that is. |
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Diane B.
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Posted - October 01 2004 : 4:10:49 PM
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In response to Lurking Huron 0301: Since you haven't yet seen LOTM (the 1992 version by Michael Mann), I don't want to spoil that experience for you, but...well, let's just say that it doesn't exactly follow the book! The "short version" is that Cora and Hawkeye fall in love and survive; Uncas is killed, and Alice dies, also. As for Major Heyward, all I'll say is that things really "heat up" for the Major in the Huron village...
Seriously, you must watch this movie! If I may borrow a favorite quote from Wilderness Woman - which ALSO just happens to come from LOTM, by the way - "It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imagining could possibly have been!" |
Rattlesnake Woman
"The earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth." - Chief Seattle
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blueotter
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Posted - October 01 2004 : 5:45:31 PM
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| Isn't the book different, also, in that Alice was the more assertive of the sisters. I haven't read the book (I tried and tried, but I couldn't keep track of things within the lilt of early 19th century prose) but was told by someone who did, that the sisters' names were switched in the movie. Does anyone know why? |
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robynk
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Posted - January 05 2005 : 6:26:39 PM
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| Alot of you seemed to have missed how "out of it" Alice was by the end of the movie. After being ambushed, seeing the massacre at Cameron's cabin, attacked and her father "missing", and taken by Magua, Alice may have had affection for Uncas. But she was in no condition to have a relationship with anyone. I think that seeing Uncas devastated her, but by then she was already "over the edge", (sorry for the play on words). Be it her young age or her delicate European upbringing, by the end of the movie Alice had post-traumatic stress syndrome, (or whatever it is called),if ever anyone did! What a beautiful side story though, and still very romatic and sad. |
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Dark Woods
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Posted - January 06 2005 : 3:52:06 PM
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| Alice would have stayed, in my opinion. I don't think that whether or not she was in love with Uncas is critical. I think that she would stay because there is nothing in London for her. Then in time, I think that she could have fallen in love with Uncas, even if she had not been in love with him before. |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - January 06 2005 : 4:51:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by robynk
Alot of you seemed to have missed how "out of it" Alice was by the end of the movie.
Some of us have not missed that at all! Some of us are just getting rather tired of repeating it, as this topic has been much discussed.
Here, once again, is what I have offered as my opinion:
1. Uncas was in love with Alice.
2. Alice did not return that love.
3. Alice was a very terrified young "school-girl."
4. Alice was so completely overwhelmed by the events that transpired that she went 'round the bend, so to speak.
5. Alice did not jump from the cliff to join her so-called-by-some "lover," but simply to escape what she saw for her future: a life as a captive slave at the mercy of the likes of Magua.
There. I've said it again!  |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Okwaho
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:08:29 PM
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Between this thread and the one asking the question of why Alice jumped there seems to be the idea that Alice feared Magua more than dying as she did.Three writers seemed to believe that had she survived with Uncas dead and no one else to protect her being taken by Magua would be tantamount to the classic Victorian picture of "a fate worse than death" as follows:
chasis 22,a 2003 post, said that she would have been raped or killed.
rydergrl,a 2003 post,said that she would be abused by the women and as a slave would be passed from man to man.
Wildernesswoman, a Jan.6,2004 post,felt that she would have a life as a captive slave to the likes of Magua.
WELL Let me tell you what would likely have happened as well as what would NOT have happened to her to her.
First,she would not have been raped or passed from man to man.We can find no documented instances of white women being raped by woodland Indians.There are a number of accounts of white women captivities and Mary Rowlandson,captured 1676 by Narragansetts was held for 11 weeks during which time she performed numerous knitting and related tasks for her"master and mistress" and others and was paid for them in various ways. She said in her story that "Not one of them ever offered me the least abuse of chastity in word or deed"Many white women refused to return to their white lives.So what are the options for her with Magua? She would be taken back to the village where it would be decided as to her fate.This wasn't Magua's sole decision but rather one made by the village including all the Clanmothers or as we call them the Grandmothers.She could be adopted into the tribe to replace a lost tribal member or she could be traded to another tribe or to the English or French and if the latter she would be given back in a political trade.She would not become a forced concubine or wife as some people think.She could also be ransomed back from her people as a commodity with value.
Now, she had a legitimate fear for her life.If she couldn't keep up on the way back to the village she might be tomahawked and killed as a burden.However,given Magua's thirst for revenge, death by torture or burning was a distinct possibility and if you remember this had been about to happen to her sister,I believe, although it would be a tribal decision as outlined above. Captives, especially great warriors, were often tortured but women were not exempt.In the Nicholas drawings Ca.1700 done by a defrocked{?}priest in the Great Lakes country ,is shown a picture of "a female prisoner of war whom I burn" and I remember an account of a French woman who was burned by either the Hurons or the Iroquois.It is questionable whether she would have been burned if someone, usually a woman, wanted a potential adoptee to replace a lost family member and gave sufficient gifts to Magua to secure her. If she were adopted she would have been considered as much a member of the tribe and appropriate clan as if she had been born Indian.The captivity stories are fascinating and there were white women who preferred living as Indian to returning to their previous lives such as Mary Jemison who lived out her life as a Seneca.There are three reasons for this refusal to return.
First they were not the property of their husbands
Second they were not expected to bring forth children with the same frequency as corn,The average size of Indian families was 4-5
Third Women in the Native culture owned the longhouses,fields,and the crops,and had real political power.Remember woodland Indians are matrilineal rather than patrilineal ie, we descend through the mother rather than the father.
Compare this with the lives of 17th and 18th century White culture where,"The husband and wife are one and the husband is the ONE"
Alice,without Uncas as at least a protector,probably was totally confused and perhaps knowing or fearing her possible fate simply took the easy way out.Who knows?
Tom Patton
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Gadget Girl
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:37:26 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to share that, Tom!
Having been to multiple gatherings and hiked those cliffs other multiple times, I have always thought she was just pure whooped as it is mighty hot in the summer on those cliffs (remember her looking up at the sky and sheilding her eyes??). Besides she didn't even have a Misty Mate OR Glammy Chamois to aid her trek. AND THAT DRESS... not cliff hiking gear AT ALL. The girl simply found herself gadget-less and decided to end it!
GG  |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:45:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Okwaho
Let me tell you what would likely have happened as well as what would NOT have happened to her.
Friend Okwaho,
Thanks for those very valid points, much of which I knew. But I was not saying that any of those horrible things would have happened to her. If I may repeat what I stated in #5: "to escape what she saw for her future." My point is that poor little Alice, in her inexperience in this vast expanse of primeval wilderness, had no clue as to what was going to happen to her. Having seen what she had seen, she could only imagine the worst possible scenario for her future. Being the young and weak person that she was, and one who had pretty much lost her senses by then, she took what was to her the easy way out: death.
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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alikws
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:56:00 PM
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at the start of the movie, uncas,hawkeye,chingachgook were headed to cain-tuk-ee... acording to the means interview, after offering tobacco &c , they continued on to cain-tuck-ee.. if uncas survived, she would have followed him and her sister, if not, she may still have followed her sister...
from the 1650's into the early 1700's redemption stories of caprives were common, often used
in churches as an example of a test... she would have heard them...
eunice williams (deerfield,ma) and esther wheelwright (wells me} are two who have stories out... |
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Okwaho
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 3:03:25 PM
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Wilderness Woman mon ami, I don't disagree with what you say per se.I realize that to a naive confused young girl burdened wih all matter of fear even bordering on sheer terror,that Magua represented all that was terrifying and threatening to her.I wanted to merely point out that such fear was indeed real insofar as physical danger was concerned, but that the Victorian fear of a "fate worse than death" was groundless. Actually she probably would have had a pretty good chance of not being tortured or burned since that was really quite rare where women and especially white women were involved.
alikws mon ami, I'm quite familiar with Eunice Williams and her husband Arosen and it's a really interesting story albeit a rather sad and poignant one.John Demos has a good book out,"The Unredeemed Captive".Eunice age 7 was captured with her entire family in the 1704 Deerfield Raid which BTW we reenacted last February.By the age of 9 she spoke no English and married Arosen at about 16.One or two of the family died and all the rest eventually got back but the Mohawks would never let her go.She and Arosen made several visits back to Mass. starting in 1739
I'm not familiar with Esther Wheelwright of Wells,Me.I've long been interested in the captivity stories so I'll have to check her out.
Megwetch
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misschanelno5
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 5:18:45 PM
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Okwaho --
Do you know the story of Jenny Wiley? She lived in Indian captivity and escaped to be reunited with her husband; when you mentioned captivity stories I thought of hers, since a state park fairly near my home (in Prestonsburg, Kentucky) is dedicated to her.
It is difficult to get a handle on the exact details, such as tribe(s) involved, since they tend to vary slightly from story to story. Here are two links:
http://www.jeanhounshellpeppers.com/Jenny_Wiley_Story.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jwiley/aboutjenny.htm
I apologize if this is old news!  |
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination."
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Okwaho
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 6:12:53 PM
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Go to Google and punch in jenney wiley and you will find a bunch of sites maybe more than one page.I wasn't familiar with her but she seems well known in Kentucky.There are a lot of these captivity sagas but unless they have appeared in the captivity bios or memoirs or someone like you tells me I won't know about them.
Good luck
Tom Patton |
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lonewolf
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 9:49:21 PM
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| Uncas take white woman Alice for wife. Heap many children. White woman chew many deer hides. Gather much firewood. Cook much food. Clean longhouse. Make Uncas good warshirt. Good woman! She no longer want redcoat soldier. |
Ken Lonewolf |
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lonewolf
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Posted - January 07 2005 : 9:53:59 PM
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| It not great to be Indian ally of French snail eaters. Use French to kill Yengese. Then kill French. They just more shawanucks! |
Ken Lonewolf |
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Okwaho
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Posted - January 08 2005 : 08:56:58 AM
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| Gee whiz, I wish I could talk "Injun" |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - January 08 2005 : 10:49:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf
Good woman! She no longer want redcoat soldier.
Of course she wouldn't! Why on earth would she want to have a life of comparable luxury with possibly a maid and a cook, elegant clothing, parties to attend, teas to preside over. How much more fun it would have been for Alice to sit on the ground chewing deer hides!
The life you describe, Lonewolf, while very noble (do not accuse me of being anti-Indian, for I am not!), is simply not for every woman in the world! And I definitely do not think it would have been the life of choice for the movie character Alice. Yes, there were a number of white women captives who elected to stay in their new Indian world, but there were also a number who elected to return to their original families in the white world. Please do not presume that every white woman would have had a better life with an Indian tribe, than she would with her white family.
If I had been lovingly adopted into a tribe as a child and married to a fine warrior, I would probably have stayed. If I had been forced to be a white slave (not talking sex and rape here), doing hard labor and sleeping outside like a dog... I would have found every opportunity to leave. And do not tell me that did not happen! You know very well it did. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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What if Uncas and Alice have lived?
