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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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 Posted - October 30 2003 : 7:07:25 PM
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What are the things to look for when checking a used Brown Bess? Are there good manufacturers and ones to stay away from? (I'm sure real ones are way beyond possibility so I'm thinking reproduction.) Do certain things wear out? All hints appreciated.
Kurt
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Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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 Posted - October 30 2003 : 8:09:55 PM
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What model are you looking for, Long Land Service or Short Land New Pattern musket? If you are going to use it for reenacting you should not use a Short Land for any period before the American Revolution as these were not produced before 1769. The Short Land New Pattern muskets are more commonly called a 2nd Model Brown Bess, and reproductions of these are much more common. For historical accuracy stay away from the Japanese made ones. The Italian Pedersoli ones are much better, although not completely accurate (the lock should really only be marked with "Tower," or "Dublin Castle" for a correct Short Land, New Pattern Musket). Hope this helps, I'm sure some one else can give you more info on how these reproductions handle and wear.
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YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - October 30 2003 : 9:56:50 PM
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If you do choose a Pederisoli 'Bess', you could do alot worse. They make a good weapon, whose fit, finish and function are par excellant. For an F&IW impression, you can 'de-farb' the Pederisoli with a proper lockplate, ramrod pipes, etc. all availible from The Rifle Shoppe. When you are done, you will have a passable looking cut-down long land pattern (Historically correct, for North American Service during the period). I hope this helps, and good luck.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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YoungNative
Pioneer
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2003
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Posted - October 30 2003 : 11:28:30 PM
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My bess is from pedersoli, and it's top of the line, they do make a good gun.
As a bonus, u get a movie, about how they make there guns, who could pass that up ;-)
-mark
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"Re-enacting is life, the rest is just history." -me
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -M. L. King Jr.
"music is like this porthole into another world - the world of truth."
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"you do not have to fear what goes bump in the night, when you become what lurks in the dark" - unknown
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 31 2003
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Posted - October 31 2003 : 12:34:19 AM
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I have found that the Japanese Bess is/was a little closer to size than the Italian Pedersoli Bess and it has/had a much better lock. If you are looking at used Bess' always check the main spring tension.. Pedersoli Bess main springs are weak from my own experience. When or if you get any Bess get a back up main spring. The fit and finish are good on both of them. The new ones coming from India that I have seen are kinda hit and miss.. I have only seen the 1st Models close up and they look ok.. but they are too heavy.
I haven't checked out the second models as of yet. but the prices are excellent..and they do work good.. and for the most part look good at least in pictures. $529.00
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HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 27 2003
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Posted - October 31 2003 : 06:44:09 AM
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I would like to thank you gentlemen for your assistance.
I know I'm supposed to pick a character and then supply that character in a reasonable manner but it's at least thirty years since I was outside in centerseam moccasins.  There are a couple of shows in the area and I am interested in knowing how to work a flintlock and a Brown Bess is a reasonable weapon for a New York farmer/militia of the last half of the 1700s. I have been reading "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" and between bedding the barrel and shaving the forestock paper thin I've scared myself out of a Kentucky for the year. I guess I could hunt a Bess but .75 cal seens awful wasteful of lead and powder. The idea of working up to assembling a Kentucky by defarbing a Bess is a good angle and I would gain experience tuning the lock and cleaning the barrel et. al. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - November 01 2003 : 08:12:07 AM
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Kurt, I'm not that familiar with New York, but here in New England hybrid hunting/military guns were quite common.
Many if not most were assembled here using British or continental barrels and locks, but locally-made stocks and furniture.
They were generally significantly lighter and handier than the Bess. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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Posted - November 01 2003 : 6:12:12 PM
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My thinking was if I go with a musket, I might as well cover as many bases as possible. Many of the Rogers Rangers groups have standardised on the 2nd model Brown Bess. Next Sunday, November 9th, there will be a Living History: "a Salute to Veterans" event at New Winsor Cantonment. I'll try to see what folks are using to portray the end of the Revolutionary War.
For light and handy, (not to mention accurate and less wasteful) I bet a .32 poor boy is hard to beat.  |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 03 2003 : 03:00:12 AM
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The Pederisoli '2nd Model Bess', or more correctly Short Land Pattern Musket Bore Firelock, is a very good choice that will allow you to use it both for F&IW and RevWar. It is also correct for Whiskey Rebellion and the 1790's Indian War. As I said before, you could do alot worse.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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Posted - November 10 2003 : 7:24:01 PM
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I found The Rifle Shoppe you spoke of Sergeant and they have parts for a New York City Contract musket from 1755 (the original is at the West Point Museum) that started as a Long Land Pattern and was shortened to Short Land Pattern size before the Museum got it. Thanks for the pointer! I think I could re-inlet the plate but the machining is a little intimidating.
During my web search I found a 1724 Long Land Pattern with iron furniture at an unbelievable price. Would iron furniture restrict what I could portray? During the Revolutionary War guys used what they could find, right? It would definitely be appropriate for Rogers Rangers and militia.
Kurt |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 10 2003 : 11:07:19 PM
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Kurt, glad I could help, let me know how your project turns out. As to the question about iron furniture, it would be appropriate for any provincial/militia impression as well as any British Regular serving in a regiment under the Irish Establishment (Irish, Highland Scot, Independant/Invalid Company in North America or other 'foreign' regiment like the 60th Royal American Regiment).
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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mnchiefs502001
Pathfinder
USA
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July 30 2003
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Posted - November 11 2003 : 8:11:07 PM
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Just been checking back in on the list.
I have "defarbed" many of Pedersoli muskets. They end up looking much like a cut down 1st. model with a few differences. I use mine for officer impressions and Ranger work.
However, I just received a musket put out by Loyalist Arms. I recommend their 1st Model Bess. It is really nice with the proper bananna lock, nice engraving, proof marks, and relief carving around lock panels is correct. The best of all the imports out there.
For $650 deliver you could do much worse. There is one available on Gunbroker.com. The gentleman selling it wants $700 for his reserve. It is $50 more than ordering one direct but no wait for it. Go there and search for Brown Bess. It is the one listed as the 1st model. I have not taken any digital pictures of mine but will and post them soon.
As far as lock markings, there is a picture in the "Seige of Niagra" Book of a second model that has a Grice lock dated 1761, go figure? So there is documentation of Grice making locks after 1755 - 1758.
I'm going to be posting on a limited basis from for at least the near future as I have got my orders to go to the "sand box." I will post when I can. I will need a 18th Century soldier fix while I'm doing my 21st Century soldier duties. I will be back to get on the 2005 events. So hope to meet some of you on and off the battlefield.
Take Care, and Sgt. Munro thanks for your service. Thanks to all out there who have served and continue to serve.
Lloyd C.
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 11 2003 : 8:40:54 PM
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quote:
I'm going to be posting on a limited basis from for at least the near future as I have got my orders to go to the "sand box." I will post when I can. I will need a 18th Century soldier fix while I'm doing my 21st Century soldier duties. I will be back to get on the 2005 events. So hope to meet some of you on and off the battlefield.
Good luck Lloyd, we need all the good people there we can, to get the job done right. I will pray for your safe, sane and speedy return, my brother. I am proud to know fellow warriors like you. We will have to meet, and have a pint or two of porter (after the King's Ration, of course), on that I promise.
Your Comrade-in-Arms,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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mnchiefs502001
Pathfinder
USA
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July 30 2003
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Posted - November 11 2003 : 9:03:11 PM
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Thanks for the thoughts a prayers, it's a tough mission even for a sapper like myself. But thats what they pay me for. I will keep in touch and we will have that pint and a wee dram to toast the King. Looking forward to meeting you during the summer of 2005.
I remain your friend and brother,
Lloyd |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 27 2003
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Posted - November 11 2003 : 9:26:56 PM
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An unsolicited testimonial! Thanks, Lloyd! I knew the price was good but the only reference I had found up till now was it was a good shooter but the fit and finish was questioned. Since the goal is learning how to use a flintlock and hopefully participating in reenactments, it keeps sounding better and better. I was wavering on iron furniture but if at some point I feel a need for brass furniture, I am sure I can do that level of carving/filing/rework.
Best of luck and safe home, Lloyd.
yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Bodhisagan
Lost in the Wilderness
USA
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November 28 2003
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Posted - November 28 2003 : 10:41:40 AM
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Hey there I'm new to this site, although I've had an interest in the rifles and muskets of the colonial/revolutionary period. I find this thread interesting because I too would like to get a Brown Bess. I have a couple of questions about them...
I found on one board someone recommending Brown Besses from Militaryheritage.com They are shipped not in firing condition; however they only require that the vent be drilled. Has anyone had any experience with them, and how authentic (as well as safe) are their guns and rifles?
Another question is (since I've made no decision as to how much I'm willing to pay) who makes the very best reproductions? At one time Navy Arms had a Williamsburg Brown Bess that was somewhat more than their normal offering. Were these exceptional, or a marketing ploy?
Lastly, just for academic reasons, were militiamen and continental regulars using Brown Besses more than anything else? Were they using paramilitary arms (hunting/muskets) more so, did they take there muskets home? It seems as though all of these happened some, but I'm looking for what was common, not "possible".
Thanks...I know that's a lot of questions, but whatever you can pass on to me I will greatly appreciate.
Steve
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 28 2003 : 10:59:34 AM
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quote:
I found on one board someone recommending Brown Besses from Militaryheritage.com They are shipped not in firing condition; however they only require that the vent be drilled. Has anyone had any experience with them, and how authentic (as well as safe) are their guns and rifles?
First, let me say "Hi Steve" and welcome. As far as the Indian-made 'Brown Bess available through Military Heritage, I might be able to help you with that. One of my men, Cpl. MacIntyre, had purchased one of the first batch of that weapon to be imported. He had some difficulties, to be expected with any new production run, but they were rectified by Military Heritage at no cost. The sales represenative assured Cpl. MacIntyre that the subsequent deliveries were updated to include those improvements. As far as safety goes, the I can testify as to the sturdiness of the barrel, it is overall as safe a weapon as the far more expensive copy from Pederisoli or Navy Arms.
quote:
Another question is (since I've made no decision as to how much I'm willing to pay) who makes the very best reproductions? At one time Navy Arms had a Williamsburg Brown Bess that was somewhat more than their normal offering. Were these exceptional, or a marketing ploy?
As to the Navy Arms 'Williamsburg Edition', well unless you are planning to use it as a wall-hanger and conversation/display piece only, I feel it is not worth the extra cost.
quote:
Lastly, just for academic reasons, were militiamen and continental regulars using Brown Besses more than anything else? Were they using paramilitary arms (hunting/muskets) more so, did they take there muskets home? It seems as though all of these happened some, but I'm looking for what was common, not "possible".
Judging from what I have read, the most common weapon used on both sides during the American War of Independence were any of several variants of the Land Service Musket Bore Firelock (as the 'Brown Bess' is officially known). Next to the civilian fowler, the Land Service Musket was the most common firelock to be found in the colonies before, during and after the AWI.
I hope that this helps answer your questions.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - November 28 2003 : 10:04:33 PM
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| I've heard that the Indian made "Brown Bess" was not made out of walnut, but another wood, teak or something. Is this true? I haven't seen one of these yet, but in the future I may be interested in getting one. But not if it isn't walnut. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - November 29 2003 : 07:29:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhisagan
... Lastly, just for academic reasons, were militiamen and continental regulars using Brown Besses more than anything else? Were they using paramilitary arms (hunting/muskets) more so, did they take there muskets home? It seems as though all of these happened some, but I'm looking for what was common, not "possible". ...
Steve
Just to add a bit to what SgtMunro has said: We were desparate for arms at the time, and our agents such as Franklin and Silas Deane procured as many muskets and parts as they could, from whichever country was willing to sell. The quality varied.
After Saratoga, we received large numbers of older Charleville muskets from France. I was rather under the impression that these had become the dominant weapon in the Continental Army, but I don't have figures.
IIRC, the Charleville also served as the model for the first standard U.S. musket. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 29 2003 : 10:18:27 AM
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quote:
I've heard that the Indian made "Brown Bess" was not made out of walnut, but another wood, teak or something.
You are right, Ranger, it is made out of a domestic (Indian) hardwood. Cpl. MacIntyre reshaped the noseband area to make it look correct, and reported that eventhough it looked close to walnut it was not. The final finish does give it the walnut look, and the corporal used a wood antique finish compound to blend it.
quote:
IIRC, the Charleville also served as the model for the first standard U.S. musket.
An interesting note to this fact, Scott. According to my friend, Scott Duff (published expert on U.S. Military shoulder arms, and one of the team that did the restoration work at the National Armory Museum at Springfield), the reasons for selecting the 'Charleville' as the pattern for the nations first official issued arm (the M-1795 Springfield) were many. First, the U.S. Government still had a large number of servicable French arms in store, along with spare parts and plans. Secondly, armorer experts agreed that the barrel band system of securing the barrel to the stock was superior and more 'G.I. Proof' for battalion/company level maintenance. Thirdly, the lock itself was a more reliable design in that the angle of the cock to the hammer allowed more of a scraping action as opposed to a striking action, thereby allowing more shots per flint and less probability of flint breakage (a problem with the inferior American 'Gray' Flints). Finally, even though we were engaged in a quasi-trade war with France, we were still on better speaking terms with them, over the British, if another war errupted and France would send aid or troops, the commonality of parts/munitions would lessen the burden on the logistics team. Just some more thoughts on the subject...
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Bodhisagan
Lost in the Wilderness
USA
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Posted - December 07 2003 : 03:32:34 AM
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| What do y'all think of the likelihood of a militiaman having a french infantry 1728 in his possesion at the beggining of The American Revolution? Also, does anyone make an affordable committee of safety musket? Can one convert a Brown Bess into one, and is it worth it to do so? |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - December 07 2003 : 11:13:25 AM
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It would be possible to have a French 1728, if the militiaman was a veteran of the French and Indian War. Many men who went to war in 1775 were veterans of the previous war. A provincial in the F&I War could have picked a French musket up on the field. Also the British light infantry were issued captured French infantry muskets for a time, since the French muskets were a smaller caliber and lighter.
I don't know about anyone making a Committee Of Safety musket, but you may be able to find a custom gunmaker to build one for you. I'm not sure what the exact differences are between a Committee of Safety and a Long Land or Short Land. I do remember one reference to a CoS having an .80 caliber barrel, slightly larger than the standard British infantry musket. Also I think one was for sale at the Track of the Wolf website awhile back. At the Chicago Historical Society a few years ago they had a musket on display which was stocked in curly maple, but had what looked like cannibalized Short Land New Pattern parts. This may have been a CoS musket. It happened to be mislabeled as a "Brown Bess carried by a British infantryman, and the stripes of the curly maple were added to the stock later." Hmmmmm.... I don't think so. Sadly many museums label firearms incorrectly, the knowledge just isn't there in the museum field.
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YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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Posted - December 09 2003 : 7:03:33 PM
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| My 1724 Long Land Pattern Musket Bore Firelock arrived! The grain of the wood is a reasonable match for walnut and the proof marks are like those I've seen in museums. Loyalist Arms and Repairs did a great job of assembling it and are wonderful to do business with. A well built tool that you don't have to be afraid to use! As is, it mounts better than any unmodified modern shotgun ever has! Only trouble is I have to get cracking at a weight lifting program if I want to be able to drill in the spring. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - December 11 2003 : 3:06:37 PM
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Outstanding, Kurt!!!! The folks at Loyalist are some good people. I purchased one of their Dragoon Pistols in early 2002, the final finishing work they do is very consistant with the photos of originals in museum/private collections. They sure do their homework.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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choosing a Brown Bess
