The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!] - What Became of F&I Heroes?

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What Became of F&I Heroes?

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Many Flags
Colonial Settler

USA

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August 13 2002

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Posted - September 03 2004 : 09:43:07 AM

Well done, Sjt. Munro!! Just sitting here with Cousin 1st Sjt. Malcolm and well, his blood got up a bit on this thread. We have tried to educate the public for years about the "hiding behind rocks and trees" but sometimes it seems fruitless. That's why he and I usually just shake our heads and walk away when the comments about "standing in straight lines in red coats", etc. are made. Also, good information on Braddock....uhh, I'll leave it at that at this point. Pax Aye! Many Flags

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Kurt
Mohicanite

USA

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September 27 2003

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Posted - September 03 2004 : 10:28:08 AM

By the end of the Revolutionary war almost all rifle companys were converted to muskets. Sure, you could hide behind rocks and trees, but by the time you reloaded that rifle, the line was within musket range. Muskets reload faster so you won't get another chance to aim that rifle. Bayonets get the job done faster than clubs (or that empty rifle) when the line closes on you.

Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt

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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood

USA

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November 27 2002

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Posted - September 03 2004 : 11:11:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Many Flags
We have tried to educate the public for years about the "hiding behind rocks and trees"...

I can cite a perfect example of the fact that this did not usually work. One of the few Revolutionary War battles that I have studied fairly extensively is the Battle of Oriskany.

After the Tryon County Militia was ambushed in the forest, the men scattered in panic and attempted to hide behind trees while firing. Brant's warriors simply watched for the tell-tale puff of smoke coming from behind a tree, then rushed to dispatch the militiaman while he was busy reloading. General Herkimer, from his seat under the beech tree, observed this and gave the order for his men to group together in groups of three or four. They could then "cover" each other. As each man was reloading, the others fired in rotation. This helped immensely in enabling the Militia to hold on for hours, until the enemy left the field.

And I just really have to say, Lonewolf, that George Washington was very young and inexperienced, but he was no fool. And the Virginians are well noted for being among the toughest fighting men of their time. Were mistakes made? Absolutley! But in the interest of maintaining peace on these boards, be careful how you phrase your comments, please. I highly respect you and your opinions; however, because we do not and will not allow posters to dishonor your ancestors... please do not dishonor ours. Thanks!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."

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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King

USA

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September 23 2002

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Posted - September 03 2004 : 11:54:24 PM

quote:
Many Flags said: We have tried to educate the public for years about the "hiding behind rocks and trees" but sometimes it seems fruitless. That's why he and I usually just shake our heads and walk away when the comments about "standing in straight lines in red coats", etc. are made.

Herr Flags, I know the frustration which you and your cousin, the 1st Sjt., shares. We will never convince all, but hopefully we can place the 'seed of doubt' into enough minds to cause them to pursue the knowledge themselves. Please do pass on my compliments to 1st Sjt. MacWilliam, and my salute to you for a another wonderful installment of the 'Tales MacWilliam'. I await Part-4, of 'A Night Of Merriment'...

quote:
Kurt noted: By the end of the Revolutionary war almost all rifle companys were converted to muskets. Sure, you could hide behind rocks and trees, but by the time you reloaded that rifle, the line was within musket range.

You are absolutely right, Kurt. That is why there were Light Infantry Troops usually deployed in support of Riflemen. Normally a ratio of 2:1 LI Grunts to Riflemen, was alotted. This was the case with the Light Infantry of Lee's Partisan Legion, who sometimes worked in concert with Morgan's Riflemen. These 'light fighters' were equipt with smothbore firelocks, and bayonets; they could cover the 'specialist' while he targeted important targets like officers. This way, if the advance elements of the line got to close, the light troops could cover the retreat.

quote:
Wilderness Woman said: General Herkimer, from his seat under the beech tree, observed this and gave the order for his men to group together in groups of three or four. They could then "cover" each other. As each man was reloading, the others fired in rotation. This helped immensely in enabling the Militia to hold on for hours, until the enemy left the field.

I am not as well versed in the Battle of Oriskany, as you are, but I am familiar with General Herkmier's orders concerning the deployment of the militia. What he essentially did, was to deploy them in a Light Infantry Skirmish Formation; this helped to steady their tenious position and buy them the necessary time.

Oh, and 'Bravo!', on your defence of GW. You are 100% right, the Virginians were amongst the most capable, in a military manner, and were only bested by the experience of the New Englanders in frontier warfare.

Your Most Humble Servant,

Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally."

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lonewolf
Colonial Settler

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February 12 2004

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Posted - November 02 2004 : 02:15:38 AM

The losses on D-Day at Normandy was a result of rushing a mass of men up an open beach. The casualties were horrendous. This was an ill-conceived assault. Troops could have been deployed elsewhere and enveloped the guns on the cliffs from behind, since the guns were incapable of being turned 180 degrees. Plus the fact that no rocket armed fighter bombers were used to soften these positions up, using frontal assaults, prior to the main beach assault. Rockets could have penetrated the gun openings of the concrete bunkers, rendering them useless. Followed by napalm, which would have made crispy critters out of any personnel inside the bunkers. Tactics!
Braddock's refusal to allow his men to disperse and form firing positions behind cover of rocks and trees, got his men slaughtered. The French and Indians were firing from cover. The British, in the open, and in formation, having no cover from the fire coming from the ravine in front of them, were nothing more than target practise for the French and Indians who lost almost none compared to slaughter visited upon the British. Not a very intelligent way to fight in the forests. Gen. Edward Braddock was a stubborn, hard headed Englishman. He refused to accept advice. He paid the price for not being able to adapt to changing situations on the field of battle.
Civil War losses were unbelievable, for the same reasons. Pickett's charge at Gettysburg was a prime example of wasting good infantry. The Wheatfield battle was another. You don't expose troops in an open field, with no possible cover and little hope of survival. There is no excuse for this, I don't care what the quality of the weaponry. It is a foolish way to fight a war.
Have you noticed that the Iraqis have the upper hand, because they don't come at us in masses. They are picking us off one by one. Tactics!
Indians were succesful using ambush and hit-and run tactics. And taking out settlers cabins one at a time, creating panic. Hitting them when they least expected it. Wear them down mentally, and keep them off balance. Make them sleep with one eye open. American colonials started out using guerilla warfare tactics, and killed many a British soldier. They let the British march down the roads, and picked them off from the cover on both sides of the road. It demoralized the average British soldier, who couldn't see the enemy who was killing them, and their officers wouldn't allow them to break formation. Sitting ducks! Then the Americans regressed into using the line abreast assaults. A lot of colonials had rifled muskets which were getting the job done. Open field warfare was not necessary. It may be "gentlemanly" to fight in this manner, but not very smart. You simply win or lose by attrition.

Ken Lonewolf

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42ndOfficer
Pioneer

USA

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August 29 2004

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Posted - November 02 2004 : 04:06:46 AM

Actually,linear tactics had their place in the New World.For example,the two segments where the French & Indians suffered the most casualties during The Battle of Grant's Hill was 1.) When Capt.MacDonald's Company of Highlanders fired several volleys into the enemy when they emerged from Ft.Duquesne. 2.)When Capt.Bullit's Virginians signaled to the natives that they wanted to surrender and marched to within several feet of the natives with their muskets over their heads then,on Bullit's command,they leveled their muskets and poured a volley into the suprised natives before following-up with their bayonets.We have this sequence in GWFW(first time ever on film).

With regards to Braddock,it was never proven that he was killed by Thomas Fausett's friendly fire.It could have happened.The General also had a few friendly Iroquois braves demonstrate to his men the native mode of warfare.Unfortunately,there were also a number of Provincials within the British ranks(who had been recruited in the colonies to bring the 44th & 48th up to strength in addition to the drafts from other regiments that they received while in Ireland.Note# The commanders of the other regiments would not have sent their "best" soldiers to the 44th & 48th either)who delighted in tormenting the regulars with tales of scalpings and other atrocities.The regulars were probably psychologically beaten before they even got to the Monongahela.All of these different individuals within both regiments had not really trained extensively with each other upon arrival in the colonies(I liken it to a professional football team who were playing a championship game that had gotten alot of new drafts in and had only practiced a couple of times).And,as noted British historian Stephen Brumwell has stated in WTFRR"the fact that the army stayed on the battlefield for nearly 3 hours and only leaving after running out of ammunition,speaks volumes for their courage."