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Vixen
Colonial Settler
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 07 2002
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 Posted - December 07 2002 : 6:02:41 PM
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| I agree. He seems brave, strong, etc. etc. Yet at the same time hes sensitive and sweet...no wonder Cora was flattered! |
"What are they doing to Duncan?!?"
-Cora Munro |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 07 2002
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Posted - December 08 2002 : 8:16:08 PM
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| yea....but in the book, he was more flawless..more pure, somehow, on account of the fact that he wasnt in love with anyone, just a friend, a protecter. |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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morgaine
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - December 08 2002 : 8:18:18 PM
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| But, I don't want the Hawkeye of the book. I want Hawkeye as personified by Daniel. Nothing more, nothing less. He is the man who embodies the spirit of America, the romantic spirit of mythic America. |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 07 2002
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Posted - December 08 2002 : 10:03:40 PM
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erm...yea, but he's not that calm, dignified, honest fellow anymore. he has lost his "in...in...in...in....that thing where you're not guilty  " and all his choices are biased by his love for cora. |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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morgaine
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - December 08 2002 : 10:50:50 PM
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| Is there something wrong with that? He is still heroic. I also think that there is an elemental quality about Hawkeye, Uncas and Chingachgook. They are one with the land. |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 07 2002
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Posted - December 09 2002 : 6:35:24 PM
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| yea, true....but the bad thing is that if he had a choice, save cora or save alice, he would save cora even though alice is younger, etc... he's biased, something a hero's can't be without losing some of his heroism. |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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morgaine
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - December 09 2002 : 8:05:22 PM
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| I don't think so. He loses none of his heroism for me. Furthermore, it is Uncas who would lay down his life for Alice. |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 07 2002
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Posted - December 10 2002 : 6:27:49 PM
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| yea...but even tho uncas dies, alice dies too, so he didnt really save her...=( |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Vixen
Colonial Settler
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November 07 2002
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Posted - December 10 2002 : 7:19:48 PM
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| But he did attempt, and thats what matters. It's not like he just ran away in fear like a coward. He was the first up on that ridge, and I guess that counts for something. |
"What are they doing to Duncan?!?"
-Cora Munro |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 07 2002
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Posted - December 11 2002 : 8:25:11 PM
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| something, but not much. he should have left it to natty...im sure bumppo would have done a better job. |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Vixen
Colonial Settler
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November 07 2002
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Posted - December 14 2002 : 4:32:38 PM
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| but you have to think, if what i heard is true, then there is a love scene between Alice and Uncas. Imagine what it must feel like to have your white brother do a better job then you on mohican things. I guess he just wanted a chance to prove himself, or die trying. Besides, I don't think Alice would have been too happy if Uncas just hung back and let Hawkeye do the job. |
"What are they doing to Duncan?!?"
-Cora Munro |
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Roxy
Pathfinder
USA
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December 08 2002
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Posted - December 15 2002 : 8:58:57 PM
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theres a lot of opinions as to why Uncas went to save Alice by himself,why Alice took her own life, etc., etc. personally, i dont think Uncas was trying to prove himself or anything. i think he did what he did out of pure love for Alice. if you read the script it sorta all comes together. It was obvious that everyone was expecting Uncas to settle down with a woman and start a family, basically to make more mohicans. its mentioned a lot in the Camerons Cabin scene. now im guessing since he hadnt married at that point that he hadnt exactly found a woman he truely cared about. then alice comes along and something, though its very subtle,up until the waterfall scene where there was suspossed to be a luv scene, clicks and he falls for her. when alice is being led away by magua and his merry men Uncas goes after her probably b/c the idea of her marrying magua doesnt exactly appeal to him. and yes he could have waited for natty but im guessing he thought he could handle himself. you have to admit, he was doing pretty good until magua stepped up to base.so yeah, he did it out of luv. and she killed herself b/c she loved him and had probably never before felt the way she felt around uncas. at least thats my opinion. wow, that was long, but i got my point across :)
~Roxy~ |
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daire
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 17 2002
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Posted - December 16 2002 : 08:33:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Roxy
Uncas goes after her probably b/c the idea of her marrying magua doesnt exactly appeal to him. ~Roxy~
And apparently, she thought marrying Magua was a fate worse than death...
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daire
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - December 16 2002 : 1:09:36 PM
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| I'm not saying that love might not have played a part at all here, but ... think about it, Chingachgook, Uncas, & Hawkeye all jumped into the fray early on, at The Ambush on the George Road, without knowing who they were rescuing, save a bunch of Lobster Backs. Apparently, this is what they do! |
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Roxy
Pathfinder
USA
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December 08 2002
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Posted - December 17 2002 : 10:51:51 AM
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lol. who knows, you could be right richfed. everyone i talk to has different opinions about it. i think maybe part of the problem is that you dont see a whole lot of interaction between alice and uncas. you're sorta forced to make your own opinion of just how strongly they felt for eachother.
~Roxy~ |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - December 17 2002 : 12:31:11 PM
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The first time I watched LOTM (not the DVD version), I formed a "feeling" about Uncas and Alice. This was before I knew about the love scene between the two of them that was cut out. Here is what I saw, and still feel:
1. Uncas had some sort of feeling for Alexandria Cameron. Perhaps it was "tender" feelings for someone he could not have. Perhaps it was a longing to have someone like her.
2. He did develop feelings for Alice. The first time I noticed this is on the River Walk... the expression on his face when he watches her, and his gentleness toward her.
3. I never noticed any indication that Alice returned his feelings. To me, she looks as though she is in a daze throughout the whole movie. The only times she showed any life was in the beginning when she saw Duncan, and at the fort when she saw her father.
Which leads me to my opinion of why she threw herself off the cliff. I think that she was so frightened, with everything that had happened to her. She was very young, very sheltered, and very innocent. I think that (based on what I saw in the VHS version, mind you) she had no feeling for Uncas whatsoever. When she saw him die at the hands of Magua, she felt that no one was going to be able to save her... that she was doomed to either a horrible life with the Indians, or to a horrible death at their hands. I think the jump from the cliff was purely an escape from something she deemed so terrible that she simply did not want to face it. This type of death, to her, was the easy and perhaps only way out.
Ciao. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Roxy
Pathfinder
USA
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December 08 2002
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Posted - December 17 2002 : 5:27:33 PM
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the script is where i got most of my opinions. if you read the cliffs scene it says that after Uncas is killed, Alice 'looks down at her dead lover' and then back at Magua and then jumps to her death next to Uncas. but i think youre right about Uncas having some sort of tenderness for Alexandria Cameron.it was a very touching part in the movie when you see him rest his hand on her shoulder after he finds her dead and sort of lets it linger there for a while.
~Roxy~ |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - December 17 2002 : 6:57:43 PM
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| Good point, Roxy ... but the script, revised so many times, only reflects Mann's thinking at the moment. What made it to film is the story as he wanted to tell it ... finally. [Though I reckon if he made it today, it might be slightly different, ala the DVD-version.] My feeling is that Wilderness Woman hits the nail on the head, and I can't really recall anyone verbalizing it in quite the same way. |
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Roxy
Pathfinder
USA
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Posted - December 18 2002 : 10:00:12 PM
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oh, c'mon, doesnt anyone agree with me!? it was luv people! luv! oh well, maybe im just a hopeless romantic,lol. idk, i guess that watching the cliffs scene in the movie wouldnt have been as dramatic or emotional to me if i didnt think that those two loved eachother. and i do think that while alice was most definatly terrified in that scene (come on, who wouldnt be?, had fright been the only thing consuming her she would have probably been more hyterical. just the look on her face right before she jumps and the tears in her eyes and the way she glimpses at the blood on mauguas hands just made me feel like there was some unexplainable and completely alien feeling feeling inside her. you see her mature right before she takes her life. its almost as if shes defying magua and saying that he cannot truely seperate her from him, shes taking control of her life for once. man, i wish i could word things as well as wilderness woman. anyways, i could say a million other things but i mainly said what i wanted to say. and i have to say that this is just my opion and i just wanted to back it up a little bit(hey, i wasnt on the debate team for nothing!)and im in no way saying that anyone elses interpretation of it is wrong. oh, and this is like my favorite scene in the movie, even though its not exactly the prettiest, thats kinda why it may seem like im a little obsessed with it it. sorry if it seems like i made a too much outa nothing :)
~Roxy~ |
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morgaine
Pioneer
USA
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May 19 2002
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Ellie
Pioneer
United Kingdom
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 22 2002
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Posted - December 19 2002 : 05:33:30 AM
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I think both Wilderness Woman and Roxy are both right! I think the 'love' element wasnt as strong in the movie but there was certainly a deep bond between them, Uncas had been there for Alice right from the start - the looks at the River Walk and when he silenced her while they were hiding from the Hurons and French before they got to the Fort. I also think that what Roxy said about Alice maturing at the cliff scene before taking her life is true, it was the only moment in the film when she was in control of her destiny. Why would she want to go with Magua when he offered her his hand covered in Uncas's blood. At that moment she didnt know Hawkeye and the others were on their way to help.
I like the way Alice and Uncas are portrayed in the film, I like the subtle undertones of their 'romance' and I dont think it is meant to be cleary defined and understood. I think if they had showed more between them it would have spoilt the intrigue of the characters. It would also have made the film a bit cheesy to have had two obvious love stories. As the film is, each love story is incredibly romantic in the way they are interpreted. |
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Telamon
Lost in the Wilderness
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April 06 2003
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Posted - April 07 2003 : 03:56:16 AM
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I tend to agree, however, I think just a kiss or something between the two, as long as its really small, and just a dual showing of love would have made it perfect... I must say, it is good that Uncas and Alice are left as the secondaries to Hawkeye and Cora, otherwise it would be too 'full' at the top of the film. It is a good pyramid that should stay that way.
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chasis_22
Colonial Settler
USA
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April 19 2003
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Posted - April 21 2003 : 5:54:14 PM
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| I honestly think that Uncas did fall in love with Alice. He probably didn't show it too well (with the exception of a few scenes...mainly the one under the falls) but what do you expect from a character that has so few lines?! As far as Alice jumping off the cliff I think she jumped for a few reasons. One being that she seemed terrified of the Indians and feared the type of life she would have with Magua. She also seems as others say "in a daze" throughout the movie. Perhaps seeing Uncas die for her was enough to snap her into reality. I think she realized that he loved her by the last look he gives her and chooses to join him in death! Personally I think they should have put in the love scene just so it would make more sense as to why she jumps. Even a kiss would help. |
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zipmutt
Lost in the Wilderness
USA
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June 23 2003
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Posted - June 23 2003 : 01:23:29 AM
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I saw LOTM first in the theater and more recently on the (disappointing) Director's Cut DVD. The romance between Uncas and Alice was the one that really interested me. I wanted more of them, and less of Hawkeye and Cora (I know that's blasphemous, but true).
The cliff scene was my favorite part, then and now. Not because I'm a hopeless romantic, but because of its sheer power. From Uncas' desperate attempt to save Alice, and his ultimate sacrifice for her, the race of Hawkeye and the others to help him, and most vitally, Alice's inexplicable calm before she jumps.
Jodhi May is truly fiersome in those moments, making it one of the more remarkable moments in cinema history.
If anyone is interested, I have a yahoogroup that tries to follow her career -- Jodhi_May @ yahoogroups.com
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chasis_22
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - June 23 2003 : 4:45:32 PM
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After thinking about this topic for a while I have drawn some new opinions.
1. First I wanted to address the comments about Cora's hair and her not being pretty. I don't think Cora cared too much about how neat her hair was considering that at any moment she could die. I think how my hair looks would be the last thing on my mind. Besides, even in a torn dress with messy hair she is still a very beautiful woman.
2. JM was beautiful too. She and MS probably couldn't look aweful even if they tried.
3. In my opinion Alice begins to grow up when she is in the infirmary and says; "Talk to Duncan, Cora. I cannot be an invalid school girl" ect. To me that shows that she is beginning to realize that the cutesy school girl thing wasn't going to keep her alive during the war. Although in those days many English women were not very strong and independant like Cora.
4. My favorite arguement....Alice and Uncas. Ok. Alice doesn't appear to notice Uncas' feelings for her until I would have to say under the falls. I think she begins to notice and see how much he cares for her. But still she didn't appear to be able to deal with that after the attack when they left the fort. For someone who allowed other people to run her life for her and suddenly had to take care of herself she probably placed Uncas lower on her list of priorities. I suppose it goes with the personality. Take Cora and Hawkeye for example. They are both strong and independant. Their love scene shows their personalities very well. However Uncas and Alice both have soft and quiet personalities. The love between them also suits their personalities.
5. So why did Alice really jump? I suppose the answer lies in the eyes of the beholder. A hopeless romantic sees it as a powerful love finally showing itself, and yet others see it as defiance for Magua or giving up hope that someone would eventually rescue her. The way I see it. Alice knew the sacheem was realeasing Cora so you can probably count on her knowing that Hawkeye and Cora would come after her. Cora never left Alice's side and to me they had a strong relationship as sisters. I find it hard to believe that Alice could think that Hawkeye and Chingachgook would allow Uncas to go off by himself without following shortly after. Throughout the movie the threesome were always in a short distance from each other. I believe Alice jumped because she would rather die with the man who gave his life for her and took care of her throughout the war rather than live knowing that Uncas loved her enough to die for her and she merely gave in to Magua. Perhaps some of Uncas' heroism rubbed off on Alice. Or could it be that she was becoming more like Cora by being defiant. Who knows. The best part about the movie is that you are left to explain scenes (like the cliff scene)according to what would please you. I am sure MM didn't do that by accident. The way he leaves so many things unexplained gives every viewer the opprotunity to fill in the blanks the way they would like it to be. Perhaps this is why he chose to cut the love scene between Alice and Uncas. With such an endless amount of possibilities as to why Alice jumped it is a way to please everyone. All I can say is MM is an amazing director. |
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Jodhi May doesn't look like Alice
