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falconau
Lost in the Wilderness
Australia
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 07 2003
Status: offline
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 Posted - September 07 2003 : 6:36:56 PM
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Hi,
I'm only new to this site, and I really only just discovered LOTM.
I suppose this topic has been covered before, but does anybody have any specifications for the Killdeer rifle?
I'd particularly like to know its length. If there's a pattern around for the stock, I'd really love to get a copy.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 07 2003 : 7:39:07 PM
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| Hullo and welcome.. if you check out BillR's posts you will find he has all the info you need on the movie version of "Killdeer"..He's posted numerous informational posts all about how, why and what it is.. |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 07 2003 : 7:52:50 PM
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From poking around...
from the original script:
"Five feet and fourteen pounds of rifle is elevated a half inch and shifted left, off target. It's a precise, smooth movement. No human quiver."
FOURTEEN POUNDS !!!!!....Geezus ...that's what a British Wall gun weighs...and it's three times the size of Killdeer..*LMAO*
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HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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falconau
Lost in the Wilderness
Australia
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 07 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 02:10:28 AM
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Thanks for the advice and warm welcome.
I read that the barrel was 48". I guess this means the overall length was somewhere around the 60 to 65 inch mark? |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 09:52:26 AM
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| Correct. It was a 48" barrel, made by Getz. The rifle when done weighs somewhat over 9 pounds but just less than 10. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 09:56:05 AM
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| Sounds like Cooper was trying to make his character sound a little like Paul Bunyan, eh Hawkeye Joe? Fourteen pounds? Holy cow. |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 14 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 12:30:15 PM
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| Target rifles built in the mid 19th century and used by sharpshooters in the Civil War often had very heavy barrels. These target rifles generally weighed between 10 to 14 pounds. There is at least one in the museum at Gettysburg, and a local gun store near me has an original mid 19th century plains style target rifle for sale. Picking it up I'd guess it weighs over 10 pounds. Although these are not 18th century rifles, the idea of a fourteen pound gun is not unheard of. Maybe the script writer was thinking of these later guns? |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 1:05:03 PM
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It's a definite factor. Cooper seemed to incorporate present day (to him) views regarding native americans, etc. It would not be unusual or unexpected for him to portray a hero's rifle more like what he imagined it would be in his day, rather than having one from THAT (1750) day in his hands. Plus, I really do think he just made it bigger, longer, more accurate etc to magnify his hero. Guess bigger IS better! Scholastically anyway.
Question: which came first? The chicken or the egg? The LOOONG Michael Mann rifle, or the TAAALLL DDL to fit the rifle? *kidding* |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 3:23:45 PM
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| Bill that was from the SCRIPT not the novel.. that was Mann and Crowe's idea of Killdeer .. not Cooper's. |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 3:37:03 PM
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME??????????????? I knew Mann was out in left field regarding period rifles, but NOT THAT FAR!!!!!!!! Fourteen pounds?
Come'on! He must have been giving Wayne Watson FITS!!!!!!!! Holy crap. Five feet is okay, at least as far as what Wayne did with that long barrel, but fourteen pounds? Sheesh. Even in a hard shell plastic gun case long enough to send the dang things, AND in a box, AND taped up well, the WHOLE PACKAGE weighed just under 14 pounds. I'd love to see Mann make one or more of the Leatherstocking tales, or better yet, make Northwest Passage....but PLEASE let somebody who has a clue order the rifles and muskets and trade guns? |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 4:48:02 PM
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| *LMAO* that's why I was so incredulous Bill..No woodsman would be lugging a rifle that weighs that much around in the deep woods....DDL would have more than a long thumb.....his right arm would be as long as a great apes.......*ROTFLMAOPMP* |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 8:27:03 PM
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Hawkeye Joe has hit the nail on the head. This is merely a script direction.
Cooper didn't write it, and I don't recall any comments on the weight of the gun in the movie.
As far as the guns of "Cooper's day", don't forget that Cooper went back a ways before he started writing. At the time of the novel, there were very few rifles owned by the inhabitants of that area, but in the post-revolutionary era, they became rather common, and they didn't (for the most part) weigh anything like 14 pounds. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 8:42:38 PM
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| Yeah, I think we figured that out. It just never occurred to me that Mann would write something like that with Wayne Watson telling him (or trying to tell him) about rifles of the period. Still, the idea of Cooper making his heroes larger than life holds water, even if not in this instance. |
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English Trader
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 25 2002
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 8:45:15 PM
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The really funny part is the idea of loading a flintlock that long and that heavy on the run. Loading a 2nd model brown bess is hard enough standing still! I find it laughable. OK, I have short arms, but I don't think DDL is very tall in reality. The arm reach of holding it in the left hand far enough down to keep the heavy butt from dragging while pouring powder and ball down the muzzle AND into the pan without emptying his horn -- heaven forbid he should manage to pull out the ramrod, turn it around and ram it down the barrel while on the run. The only person with arms that can do all that is Gumby!
Ain't fiction wonderful??? Thank god for my shorty carbine (THANK YOU FRENCH TRADER!!!).
YMHOS,
English Trader
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
Hawkeye Joe has hit the nail on the head. This is merely a script direction.
Cooper didn't write it, and I don't recall any comments on the weight of the gun in the movie.
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 10:29:44 PM
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According to the Internet Movie Database DDL stands 6 foot 1 and a half inches tall....Mark Baker taught him how to load and fire Killdeer on the run .. and according to him DDL learned very quickly and became a dead shot ... The thing is on a running loading you don't ram the ball..
We just discussed this on another board, not pertaining to DDL but to how Lewis Wetzel was supposed to have done it in real life..this is a copy of a post by a friend Mitch Ilses:
"Well, first you need to drill your touch hole oversize if it isn't already. I haven't noticed any adverse effects to doing this other than no one wants to stand on my right when I shoot. I seem to get less clatches as well with the big hole. Another thing is to use undersize balls. I've used my .490's but with no sprue it seems to roll down ok. I would suggest going smaller with cast balls. This takes some experimentation. You want the biggest ball that will roll down without hanging up. Very bad when that happens. For me I hold the rifle in my left hand. I shut the frizzen first, hook my thumb over the horn with my right and pour a charge into my palm. Pour this in and spit or drop a ball down the barrel, thump the butt on the ground and pull it to full cock and fire. It sounds easy but it's really not. It takes lots of practice plus you have to watch where you are going while all this is happening. You also have to keep your barrel at least level if not elevated to keep the ball on the powder until you shoot. I do not recomend this to anyone but I was really curious as to how those fellas might have done it. I have gained a new respect for ol Lewis Wetzel for being so good at this while running full out. I use this method for tacticals (without the ball of course) but I sometimes have to prime the pan without the weight of the ball pushing powder some through into the pan." |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Killdeer info for newbie, please.
