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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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 Posted - September 04 2003 : 1:05:12 PM
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Hello, I'm a newbie so I apologize if this is a ridiculous question. I was wondering what kind of rifle is used by Hawkeye in LOTM, was it a prop made specifically for the film or a replica of an actual rifle used in the period. It looked a bit like a "Kentucky Long Rifle" I saw in a History channel doc. about Boone and Crockett. Can someone buy or build something similar to this? Any info or advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - September 04 2003 : 1:59:06 PM
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Well sir, I'll take it upon myself to answer your questions.......the rifle used in the movie was an actual, working rifle made by Wayne Watson. Frankly, it was an abortion, and was not any kind of rifle that would have been made or used in that period. Michael Mann, the director, had it in his own mind what he thought the rifle should look like, and was based more on aesthetics and to complement Daniel Day Lewis on screen, that it was historically correct. He did invite Wayne Watson to LA to review rifles and his (Watson's) suggestions for a rifle of that period. Wayne Watson showed him a SMOOTH rifle (smooth bore, no rifling, octagon to round barrel, 46" long) document to the 1750's and made by Jacob Dubbs of Northampton County area of Pennsylvania. That rifle was stocked in brass hardware and was of course correct for the period, as it was an original rifle OF the period. Michael Mann then took that as the basis of his imagined rifle and using the stock profile, changed it all around. Made the barrel rifle, octagon swamped, 48" long rather than the octagon to round smooth bore barrel. Changed all the hardware from brass (correct) to polished steel (incorrect). Added a sliding wooden patchbox, the only thing he really adopted true to the period, but the original rifle from which he based his "vision" had NO patchbox of any kind. And, he made the rifled barrel 48" long, which was NOT seen at all in that period. Barrels tended to be much shorter in that period on the order of 30" to maybe 40" AT A MAXIMUM.
Wayne Watson, it is said, made three functional rifles in case one or two were damaged in shooting. They also made rubber and wood replicas of the real rifle for use in the fight scenes etc. Wayne Watson WAS making some replicas of the movie rifle, and may still be willing to make one if you are interested, but they are NOT cheap (he is a very good gunmaker and prices reflect that plus his name recognition) AND it would NOT be correct for you to use it during any reenacting of F&I period. You can contact him through Rich Federici of this website if you wish to pursue having one made.
Hope this info helps. |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 04 2003 : 5:12:11 PM
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Took care of your double posts, Bill, and your explanation, too. UH OH! Now my post makes no sense.... |
Theresa |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 04 2003 : 11:14:06 PM
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The stock of DDL's rifle seems to curve like a Berks or a "Roman Nose" stock (as best I can tell). Would the original that was used as a starting point have had a stock shaped like that? I think of 1750's rifles looking more like a Jaeger.
I have seen some of Watson's work. On that rifle he used a lot of silver wire inlay. It was very well done, but it was much too fancy for my taste. Did DDL's rifle have any such inlay? |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 05 2003 : 02:34:09 AM
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Wayne Watson stated that they used the stock profile for the J. Dubbs smooth rifle out of the book Kentucky Longrifles 1750-1850. It's a Northampton county style stock profile. Has the classic curved upper comb line, and double curved lower stock profile. What they did was to take the book, lay it open on a viewgraph, and put the pic up on the wall of Michael Mann's office until it exactly measured what the dimensions were give as in the book. Then they traced that outline onto a piece of carboard - and that was what Wayne Watson used as the stock profile. When I asked him if I could have him trace a pattern out for me, guess what he did. He GAVE me that carboard profile they traced out in Mann's office and signed it for me.
The DDL rifle had no wire inlay. It did have some carving somewhat reminiscent of earlier Northampton county rifles - somewhat - and as far as inlays he confined it to white seed beads in a circle around each barrel pin (and ramrod pipe pin I believe). You can see those seed beads on the pic of DDL recently posted in the tatoos thread where he is standing there leaning on it bare chested. In the book, the rifle is given as probably Northampton county style. Reading had a harder curve to the upper stock profile - a hard roman nose. Northampton, as you probably know Fitz, has a less pronounced roman nose to upper comb.
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 05 2003 : 11:12:36 PM
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| Is there anything in Shumway's "Rifles of Colonial America" that you would consider close to DDL's profile? I don't have the other book. |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 12:13:44 AM
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| Thanks guys for all the great info. I've decided I'm going to make an effort to build a muzzle-loader this winter. Can anyone suggest any books that are better than others on the subject? I've sent away for a catalog from a place in Elk River, MN called "Track of the Wolf", their website seemed to indicate they had pretty extensive wares for construction of rifles. Any advice would be helpful. Initially I'm thinking about going with a Kentucky longrifle design. Thanks again for the help. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 12:21:10 AM
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Fitz: Two things you can do. A precarved Bucks county rifle stock from Muzzle Loader Builder's Supply will be pretty exact if you round down the comb into the wrist. Ask for Susie and tell her I sent you. She's gonna be leaving for Friendship on Monday though.
The other thing you can do, if you really want the profile for that Michael Mann abomination, is I can trace it out on card stock and send the profile to you. If you go the precarved route, and are determined to make a DDL rifle, be sure to tell Susie the dimensions of the barrel going into it. Probably will only inlet it to least dimension in straight octagon, and charge extra for the extra length.
I made all mine from a stock blank and pattern. Were I to do it again, I'd just go the precarved route......getting a 48" barrel outta Getz is a pure frustration.....you will be older than dirt by the time he gets around to it and gets one to you.
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 12:00:17 PM
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Susquesas/Matt:
Chuck Dixon's soft cover book is pretty good. It's called The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle. The other book in soft cover (which has a better section on making sliding wood patchbox lids and patchboxes) is called Recreating the American Longrifle by Buchelle, Shumway and Alexander. Both are good books, easily understood by the beginner, excellent illustrations, and cover most all facets of making a longrifle. If you want a visual aid in building, you can buy the two videos of Herschel House building rifles available from Pioneer Video.
You might want to start your first rifle by getting a precarved stock from a good supplier. That will save you a lot of time, and your first rifle will have the correct profile and shape in general. You will only have to inlet all the parts, and do final shaping/tuning. If you are really determined to make your own from scratch using a rough stock blank and cutting it out, Track has full size patterns available for many style rifles. Both the books are in the $20 range. I forget how much the videos cost.
For parts, I used to go to Track. Now I deal exclusively with Susie at Muzzle Loader Builders Supply. Track too often put things on backorder I needed right away, and refused to tell me what was in stock and what was not. Susie will tell you right up front if she has it, or suggest a substitute. She will also work with you regarding any questions you might have, they are coming out with a 200 page catalog in the very near future, have a great pre-carver of stocks, are lining up Getz type barrels in same price range but polished better inside and outside, in both square and round groove rifling, and made by the man who makes the competition barrels for the US Olympic team. They should be real fine shooters, and Susie says they are BETTER than Getz barrels, and I considered them the best. If Getz has what you want on hand, you'll get it right away. If he has to make it "in his next batch run of those type" it's iffy when you will ever get it. He seems very disorganized, and friendly though you can't believe what he tells you. I don't normally make derogatory comments about vendors, but Getz has become known for worrying more about bulk than the individual customer.....and known for telling you what you want to hear, but not always following through.
Best locks are Siler/Chambers and RE Davis, though they are both having some spring issues of late. I personally don't like the L&R locks as I don't like the stirrup arrangement they have for coupling toe of mainspring to sear tumbler. You have to take out much more wood because of that, the fly arrangement they use is horrible and easily lost or put in backwards and a cheaply thin little thing compared to the bulker "post" flys. Some patterns of lock you just have to use L&R locks if you are determined to stay correct to lock styles......Haddaway for instance, or Bedford county etc.
I've gone on long enough. These are, of course, merely my own opinions.
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 12:52:06 AM
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| I have a L&R "Queen Ann" lock on an early Virginia rifle, and I love the way it shoots. I got rid of the fly (single trigger) and generally smoothed up the insides of the lock, and it is the best one I have. I have replaced some Spanish locks with L&R's and it makes a big difference on those guns. Now, I like the Siler, too, and have a few of those as well. I think any gun building efforts on my part will be directed toward an early Lancaster. I love those guns! |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 7:17:59 PM
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Does this look like the profile of Killdeer's stock?? It does to me...
Fitz, what era rifled gun are you planning on? I found a nifty early one that has a lot of features like the Early Lancaster...built in 1755.... |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
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Benjamin Franklin 1759
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 11:11:04 PM
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1755 sounds very interesting. I would like to see it. One rifle that I have always liked was Robert Young's gun that was used to shoot Ferguson at Kings Mountain. Unfortunately it has a lot of damage, so it is difficult to know exactly what it looked like. I have been thinking about a Chambers kit, but I have proojects from two years ago that I haven't finished, so in reality it is stupid to think I would have the time to build a rifle. Still, I might just get the urge.
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I bought this one last spring because I needed a rifle, but I like it better all the time. |
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Hawkeye's rifle, what is it?
