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English Trader
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 25 2002
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 Posted - August 26 2003 : 8:30:48 PM
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Well, I guess it's time I watched LOTM again. I was just reading through the illustrated script (can you believe that even with pictures that script is only 38 pages long?). I was noticing something about Cora's clothing that was all wrong.
Now, I've known for years that Alice's clothing is REALLY all wrong -- that button-at-the-neck ensemble was by her mother's design, to keep her daughter modestly (if incorrectly) dressed. (And then there is the blooper at the fort when she runs in with it unbuttoned, and then it's buttoned again!)
Anyway, I noticed that at the Huron village, when Cora is handcuffed, her sleeves go down to her wrists. That just wasn't done. Those are the sleeves of her shift and they would not have gone much further than her elbow. I suspect the billowy long-sleeved look was meant to convey a more romantic picture. Or maybe it was to protect her skin. Either way: tsk tsk.
Also, it looks like she is wearing jumps over her shift, tied at the front. Those are definitely not stays, but jumps shouldn't tie like that. Jumps are to stays what a sports bra is to an underwire bra. More comfortable, OK to be seen in the most casual sense outdoors, but not what you normally wear for a ride on a horse while formally quitting Fort William Henry. Again, I think this ensemble was meant to help create a more romantic, soft look. But still -- tsk tsk tsk.
Finally, I need to watch the movie again to see where and when she lost her jacket!
YMHOS,
English Trader
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
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Posted - August 29 2003 : 08:28:31 AM
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Whoopee! Another reason to watch LOTM yet another time! I am constantly looking for excuses...
English Trader (somehow the moniker "E.T." just doesn't fit the 18th century time period!), I have only just begun to learn about the proper clothing a woman would have worn in that time. For example, I now understand that a "petticoat" is not a slip... a "handkerchief" was worn around the neck... a "shift" is not the cute little short dress I wore in the late 1960s... and I have learned that the "UB" (Ubiquitous Bodice, for those not in the know) is not a correct garment for our time period. But I am still trying to figure out the difference between "stays" and "jumps". Ah well. It will all sort out.
Anyway, you are very knowledgeable so I am sure you are correct in your analysis of Alice and Cora's clothing. I am trying to remember for certain... but it seems like... didn't Cora get some clean clothing from the wife of a soldier at the fort after the party arrived there in the middle of the fight, or am I just imagining that? After the attack, hers were torn, filthy, portions lost (her cap and hat and perhaps that is when she lost her jacket as well?)
So, regarding your comment about formally quitting the fort... Cora and Alice had been through physical and emotional hell, being attacked and nearly killed on the road, a walk through and sleeping in the wilderness, tending the wounded, blood and filth everywhere, with no chance to bathe, dress hair, launder clothing or even change into something presentable. Also, their baggage had been lost during the attack and their escape, so they had nothing presentable to change into!
So it seems to me that at least their disheveled appearance while riding out of the fort was correct, even if the clothing details were not entirely!
Thanks for your comments, my friend! (And welcome back!) And so, with something new to look for, I must find time for a rewatch...
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
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Posted - August 29 2003 : 1:19:42 PM
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| Technically , I wouldn't call these types of things bloopers, though certainly still a good reason to again watch the film!!!! To me, a "blooper" implies an error not meant to be [silver busses, blue caps, crew lurking in the woods, etc.] ... this kind of thing falls more under "cinematic license," don't you think? |
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English Trader
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 25 2002
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 6:07:53 PM
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Well, yes, I suppose they are cinematic license -- definitely dressed to impress (the audience, that is). Yes, Cora had been lent some clothes, but running around without a jacket is like running around in a sports bra today -- and I feel certain that, if it weren't for cinematic license  , someone would have found the daughter of the colonel something more "formal" for this very formal occassion of leaving the fort while trying to uphold their diginity.
Anyway, the more I learn, the more there is to look at in this movie. That's a sign of a good movie, for me!!! (As if I needed another sign.)
English Trader
quote:
Originally posted by richfed
Technically , I wouldn't call these types of things bloopers, though certainly still a good reason to again watch the film!!!! To me, a "blooper" implies an error not meant to be [silver busses, blue caps, crew lurking in the woods, etc.] ... this kind of thing falls more under "cinematic license," don't you think?
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 7:58:08 PM
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Wanna see Cinematic License? Look at the uniforms of Col. Tavington's "Green Dragoons" in "The Patriot". They were so wrong it was laughable. Red short jackets with green facings, the green Dragoons wore GREEN DAMNIT ! *L*, black cloth knee breeches, either doe skin or white leather breeches were worn, I'm not sure about the red topped riding boots, even though Tarleton was wearing a pair when West painted him..I would more likely vote for heavier dragoon boots that reach the knee. The Dragoon Helmet was pretty much spot on but that was the only thing that was right..
While filming the movie most of the re-enactors thought that the Dragoon uniforms looked so much like Santa's elf costumes that we used to sing "Jingle Bells" as they rode past...
Tarleton's Dragoons did wear Scarlet Cloaks which gave them a little more of a hell-hound look, this would have looked very cool and been historically correct.
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HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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English Trader
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 25 2002
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 8:49:04 PM
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I hope someone secured that cannon!! 
As for uniform "bloopers", I heard from several people that the uniforms in LOTM weren't exactly right. I guess that doesn't bother me so much as the general look and feel of the clothes. I'm sure military sticklers would argue this point, but it seems that the audience won't take away the idea that the XXth of foot wore blah blah coat with whatever-facing, because all they see is red (or, in the case you mentioned, green). I don't think most movie-goers know what "facing" is or means. But they DO take away things like the idea that women's sleeves went down to the wrist (as Cora's did) and that women's gowns buttoned up to the neck (as Alice's did). And when they things in the museum they say, "that's not right, it's supposed to button up to the neck, as it did in that movie." They see a picture of a cap and assume it is a mob cap (which didn't exist until the 19th C) for the same kind of reason.
Now, I admit that I've been focusing on the women's wear, which means it is time to watch LOTM again (darn it) and pay more attention to the men's clothing.
No offence to the "facing-watchers"!
YHOS,
English Trader |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
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Posted - September 06 2003 : 11:59:45 PM
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Talk about women's dresses...Aunt Charlotte.. ..was this woman ever not dressed for a Ball?? Even when arriving on a island of runaway slaves?
Or when napping waiting for the British to arrive to burn her house?
Or just lounging around the house?
or when guests arrive?
*laughs* .. admit it .. I have you beat here.. *L* |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 07 2003 : 9:00:56 PM
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Hmmmmmm... I don't know... As I said, I am still learning about 18th century women's clothing, but here are my thoughts:
Charlotte was a very wealthy, upper-class woman. She owned a plantation, as well as a house in the city. She had slaves. My feeling is that she was dressed appropriately for her station. The costumes seem to be pretty accurate, from what I can tell. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) And she is wearing stays, like a good girl, which give her the proper conical shape and decolletage.
She could afford to wear expensive and elegant petticoats and gowns all of the time, and probably would have. I don't think we would have seen Charlotte in a working woman's attire, such as a "short gown." At the very least, perhaps she would have worn a "bedgown" while relaxing at home.
Certainly, if she were expecting the British to come knocking on her door in the middle of the night, and were facing the possibility of having to flee... she would have been fully dressed in preparation, wouldn't she? One doesn't want to have to flee in one's night clothes!
Actually, what I question is her hair. Hair down and flowing over her shoulders, such as in the photo with the blue gown, seems not correct to me. (After fleeing to the island, one could understand why her hair might have come down.) Even the up-dos in the other photos don't look quite right to me... but at least her hair was dressed.
Just my thoughts.
Boy, I would kill for that waistline!
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 12:40:02 AM
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| Well, I , for one, liked Charlotte's . . . uh . . . dresses. Very correct! |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 2:45:09 PM
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Well, Fitz, did you like them so much ya stole 'em?
(For some reason, the photos of Charlotte are not showing now, at least on my computer.)
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 3:19:02 PM
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| I removed them from my site as they were taking up a lot of bandwidth...Sorry.. |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 09 2003 : 11:33:13 PM
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| Couldn't you have removed something else? |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - September 10 2003 : 08:14:40 AM
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Joe, can you use Rich's "Upload an image file from your PC..." option and place the images permanently? I assume that you could then remove them from your site and they would stay here...?
(I'm not certain how this all works.)
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - September 10 2003 : 1:23:13 PM
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| I'll look into that .. I didn't know Aunt Charlotte's dresses were so popular..I still believe that she was way over dressed for casual daywear...And wonder where she got the dress she wore at the slave island when she barely escaped from her home in that other gown as they burned her out...with just the ball gown on her back.....*LOL* |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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rydergrl
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 03 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - April 15 2004 : 7:43:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkeye_Joe
Wanna see Cinematic License? Look at the uniforms of Col. Tavington's "Green Dragoons" in "The Patriot". They were so wrong it was laughable. Red short jackets with green facings...
I wondered about those green facings myself, and I don't know half the history you do, Hawkeye Joe |
What you give of yourself is priceless. |
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LOTM Clothing bloopers
