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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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 Posted - July 28 2003 : 12:44:44 PM
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For Lainey (or any of you other knowlegeable folks who have been posting with such expertise):
I know this might have been covered in the sola and religously related posts indirectly, but I got curious about some things.....
Lainey (or anybody) what is the difference between the Catholic bible old and new testaments and the Masonic bible? Anything of real importance? I have a really old German bible from my grandmother with her family history written in, but as it is in German I can't read the bible itself! I also have a Masonic bible printed in 1949 with my family history in it, and that of course I CAN read. But are there major differences between the bible I have, and what Catholics use? I saw from the discussions that apparently there may be.
Also, what is Lainey's view about Knights of Columbus with respect to the Masons? Are they at odds with each other, or do you merely view them as the "soldiers" of each respective faith?
I was really enjoying these discussions.......how come they faded away? It was a learning experience for me. Ah well.
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - July 28 2003 : 1:33:01 PM
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| They'll be back, Mr. R --- Things things tend to take something out of you. Regrouping time, I would surmise! |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - July 28 2003 : 2:34:40 PM
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I'm sure it DOES take a lot out of a person to post such detailed and lengthy examinations of complex topics as Lainey and the rest have done. Heck, it takes a lot out of ME just reading them and trying to comprehend. To think such things through, do the research and grab the quotes and references and include them, and write about it in a way that is non-jugemental and informative MUST take a lot of thought and effort. I was enjoying the discussions though. Truly.
I think more so than going to some run of the mill minister or priest and asking the questions, even. At any rate, hope after Lainey and secureman etc rest up and regroup and gather their thoughts they will continue such discussions. |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 28 2003 : 2:48:53 PM
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I'm sorry, Bill - I guess I thought a break was good [even if only to digest] & maybe even wanted. I'll get back with it [and thank you for such enthusiastic participation!]. And, yes, it can drain but I enjoy the discussions, Bill. I'll continue with some more thoughts & *rebuttals* tonight!
Meanwhile, regarding the Knights of Columbus & the Feemasons ...
"Lainey (or anybody) what is the difference between the Catholic bible old and new testaments and the Masonic bible? Anything of real importance? I have a really old German bible from my grandmother with her family history written in, but as it is in German I can't read the bible itself! I also have a Masonic bible printed in 1949 with my family history in it, and that of course I CAN read. But are there major differences between the bible I have, and what Catholics use? I saw from the discussions that apparently there may be."
VERY big difference! One is Sacred Scripture & one is not. Keep & cherish your grandmother's German Bible (even if you can't read it). The Masonic bible is a horse of a different color. As you noted - there are major differences - many assume Free Masonry to be monotheistic & somewhat of a civil organization or brotherhood of Protestant Christianity. Not so. Rather than delve into it this moment I refer you to the article below. It's written by a Protestant who addresses the blatant contradiction of Christians being masons. Rather than tell you what he says I prefer you read it. Long, but there's much to be said. The Catholic Church has opposed masonry around the world for good reason. A Protestant perspective might be helpful, as well. We can discuss it further???
"Also, what is Lainey's view about Knights of Columbus with respect to the Masons? Are they at odds with each other, or do you merely view them as the "soldiers" of each respective faith?"
Very much at odds. The KOC are a legitimate, recognized Catholic organization that does a great deal of charitable work while remaining faithful to Catholic Christian teaching. The Masons - while they do fund & solicit for charitable work [like the Shriners' Children's Hospital] are not faithful to Christianity AT ALL & are not a reflection or brotherhood of Protestantism. They are at odds with Christian belief & are very much against Christ & His salvific doctrines & sacrifice. Therefore, having demonstrated an overt anti-Catholicism & a germaine anti-Christianity, a Catholic is forbidden from membership in a Masonic Lodge. It's that serious.
This article addresses what the author sees as a scandal for Christians that particular bodies (such as the Southern Baptists) have NOT condemned the Masons as incompatible with Christianity. Interesting ...
quote:
THE MASONIC LODGE AND THE CHRISTIAN CONSCIENCE
by John Weldon
Summary
The Masonic Lodge in America is a highly influential organization claiming some four million members. Masonic leaders argue the lodge is not a religion but merely a fraternal body that seeks to better society and also assist the Christian church. It does this, they claim, by helping Christians become better members of their own faith.
The truth is that Masonry is a distinct religion that espouses teachings incompatible with Christian faith in the areas of God, salvation, and other important doctrines. It is therefore inconsistent for any Christian to swear the oaths of Masonry to uphold and support the Lodge when Masonry's own ritual, doctrines, and impact in history have denied and opposed biblical teaching.
This is so despite the 1993 recommendation of the Southern Baptists at their annual convention that membership in the Lodge can be left to the Christian's individual conscience.
"Because of your support, the vote of the Southern Baptist Convention is a historic and positive turning point for Freemasonry. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 28 2003 : 3:06:19 PM
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Also, Bill, this might be a good thread to discuss what the Church teaches regarding salvation & the means of salvation {and for whom Christ died}. The author above does not recognize Scriptural based 'works' as a salvific necessity & still, despite that contrary perspective, he sees the contradiction of Masonry.
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 1:06:35 PM
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Regarding the Free Masons...
Lainey, mark it on the calendar!! We agree!!
The organization of Free Masons in not a true Christian organization. My church (an Evangelical Protestant one) does not approve of or condone membership in a Masonic Lodge.
For those interested, I found this most interesting website that gives much food for thought:
www.emfj.org
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
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July 08 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 1:45:05 PM
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| My Grandfather was a Mason.I'm not too sure but I think he was a Master Mason.Anyway,from what I heard,he was very Anti-Catholic.I mean VERY.I believe one oath states that if you reveal anything that pertains to the order,you will be cut from ear to ear.Now I don't know if they mean it literally,but it still doesn't sound too kosher to me.Oh,no,I said kosher! This will probably branch off to something else now,lol! I'm a former Knight myself,actually in limbo.Oh,no, I said limbo!Off we go to another place far far away.lol. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 2:17:03 PM
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Hmmmm. The Masonic bible does have a lot of that stuff in it, in it's own sections. History, philosophy, etc. The rest of the bible is King James version OT and NT with red lettering for Christ's words highlighted that-a-way.
A minister and friend of my mother's sponsored me into Masons (well, actually, Order of DeMolay - the youth group like Rainbow Girls for girls). I was intitiated and all. And when that man and his family moved up to Maine to another parish I just kinda ceased activity with the Masons. I don't recall anybody saying it was a Christian organization though, but more a brotherhood. Some of what they believe, and what Lainey has outlined, DOES appeal to me though. Yes, I profess Christianity and Jesus, but intellectually I believe there is ONE God. Who created all. And everything. In the universe. He created Hindus. He created American Indians. Mankind has sought spiritual enlightenment within his culture. I can't say a devout Muslim is less Godly than I am, or less likely to see life after death. I can't say a Native American is less in tune with the spiritual forces around us than I am, nor am I prepared to say he is MORE in tune with them. I certainly, then, am not prepared to say a Catholic or Protestant has a better shot at an afterlife than the other. IF God created us all, then he loves us all. If God created the universe, then (as I believe there has to be other intelligent life in the universe somewhere) he created THOSE beings also. Does he love THEM also? Do THEY seek His grace? WHAT form would THAT grace take?
I believe, as a Protestant, in God and his son Jesus, and that Jesus is my salvation. The concept of His being the ONLY salvation has always bothered me though. Unless the interpretation of "I am the Way" was meant as an example and a recognition of his divinity...rather than a directive as it is taken today. Is it necessary to both accept Jesus's divinity AND the concept that HE IS the only way into heaven? I don't know. And "playing it safe" and professing that I believe so won't get me into heaven. God knows all. He sees into our hearts. He knows when we are hedging our bets and when we truly have good hearts and a love of God.
Don't you think? Well, Food for Thought and discussion. I will never accept that somebody who is a perfectly good person in all ways, and lives the EXAMPLE Christ set and loves God but does not profess Jesus as the ONLY salvation is going to be damned or shortchanged in the afterlife...........while somebody who DOES profess all that and leads a despicable life with a cold heart and no real repentence IS going to heaven just because he professes that way and asks forgiveness at his last breath. That sort of concept has always troubled me.
Why would God give us reason and intellect and the ability to question these things and find various ways for spritual enlightment IF there was ONLY ONE WAY to think about it? That has also troubled me over the years. It's one thing to know of God and reject him. Those people are damned I believe. But are Native Americans damned outright because they believe in the way they do? I find that hard to accept. Especially a gentle, kind and peaceful people like the Navajo for example.
Lordy, I am wandering here in a maze of rambling thoughts, arent I? Forgive me!
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 2:37:16 PM
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Hee hee hee ... will you hold those thoughts, Bill, until I can reply properly later???? I will say this - you're hurting your head for nothing. "He who is born of love is born of God."
It's God will that all live eternally. He created & loves ALL. That's WHY He became flesh. But keep in mind, He did explicitly show us THE way, not one way. Still, that's a lot more broad than people think & it has much to do with a man's spirit of truth.
A question for you to think about until later; Is there anyone you can declare to be damned?
Okay, another one; Do you think a man like Aristotle, even though pagan, will or has seen the face of God?
WW, I'm a'markin it!
Brother Jim, whatcha trying to do? Cause a riot? |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
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July 08 2002
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 4:43:12 PM
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"A question for you to think about until later; Is there anyone you can declare to be damned?"
Yeah. Anybody who works for the IRS! Sarah Brady and all who sympathize with her. Hillary. Oh, lordy, there are MANY I would damn! Now would God, I can't say. I'd damn myself if I attempted to speak for Him!! |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
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July 08 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 7:24:27 PM
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| Hey Bill,You mentioned about life on other planets and how they would fit into the redemption scenario and obtain grace because God loves all.As we already know,Jesus had to die in order to get this special grace.Do you think he had to get crucified again on another planet or would there be a different mode to obtain grace on this specific planet? I wondered about this myself but I accept only us here on earth as his only pride and joy.This is only my thoughts. |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
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July 08 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 7:30:01 PM
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| Wait a minute! Jesus can only die once according to Scripture.I don't see him going around the universe getting crucified over and over again.Wow,I'm glad I answered my own question.You know,this is the forum for great thinkers! lol. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 8:15:05 PM
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That's exactly my question! IF you accept that there must be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe (and I do, the odds are just too staggering that there would not be) then accepting God as the creator of the universe it follows that he would be recognized and worshipped elsewhere also. So...........how does one achieve grace in those places? What form would it take? Boggles the mind.
No, I don't think Jesus would have to be crucified again in that place - I don't accept that as a premise either.
Like my son once said: The question of whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, or not - if there is. Mind bending concept. And if WE are the ONLY intelligent life - mind bending concept. Either way. |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 9:51:58 PM
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...to quote (sorta) a line from the movie "Contact"...
If there's not life out there, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Don't know if I believe there is or not...but I liked that movie. |
Theresa |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 01:12:57 AM
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Securemann,
Speaking as a 32nd degree mason (Valley of Pittsburgh Scottish Rite) I can answer a few of your questions. First off, the "slicing of ones throat ear to ear" is taken from the oath and obligation of one of the masonic degrees. It is purely symbolic in nature, and the canidate is informed of that during the ceremony. It is true that we do not hold one religion (or sect within) as being superior to another, but then alot of other fraternal origanizations are governed the same. Brothers are required to believe in one God and one God only (no pagans please). Brothers are also required to be loyal to the country from which they hail. Brothers are also expected to serve their fellow countrymen and community. We start every meeting with a benediction and the Pledge of Allegience. This being the case, once the lodge is in session brothers may discuss anything but religion or politics (this is a fraternal group, and nothing causes conflict between two men more than religion or politics, not even women!). I can say, without reservation, that Freemasonry is not a religion, a cult or political body. We are a group of professional men, who celebrate family, community, charity and fraternity.
Now, in masonry alot of our ceremonies and meetings are held in secret, and this again is for symbolic reasons given the history of practical masons and other guildmembers' relationships with political/religious powers. We are not a diabolical secret society bent on world domination. Just because a group of guys want to meet in private, everyone else gets suspicious. It is just like when you try to find some quiet, by reading in the bathroom, that is when your wife knocks on the door wanting to know what you are doing (even though my house has 3 full baths, she has to 'lock-on' to the one I am in!).
I do not believe that what I have divulged here will place me in peril with the brotherhood (you know, me being abducted by a group 'Masonic Mossad'-type agents, duct-tapped and thrown into a panel van, destined for parts unknown), but we have a symbolic reason for our secrecy. I hope this answers some of your questions.
Your Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 02:30:48 AM
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quote:
I don't recall anybody saying it was a Christian organization though, but more a brotherhood. Some of what they believe, and what Lainey has outlined, DOES appeal to me though. Yes, I profess Christianity and Jesus, but intellectually I believe there is ONE God. Who created all. And everything. In the universe. He created Hindus. He created American Indians. Mankind has sought spiritual enlightenment within his culture. I can't say a devout Muslim is less Godly than I am, or less likely to see life after death. I can't say a Native American is less in tune with the spiritual forces around us than I am, nor am I prepared to say he is MORE in tune with them. I certainly, then, am not prepared to say a Catholic or Protestant has a better shot at an afterlife than the other. IF God created us all, then he loves us all.
No, it's not a statement of Christianity but an appearance. Every town in the US has its masonic lodges, perceived as a good & civic minded organization that assists the great brotherhood of men. The average Joe does think it's at least compatible with Christianity even though nothing could be further from the truth. How many 'brotherhood' members know anything more than the glossy rites of initiation, claims of belief in God, or the lower rites? What of Masonic history? How many members understand the international, elitist power base of this secret society? How many know the first thing about the Illuminati & the New World Order?
There IS one God, Bill, & you've already professed that. Intellectually you could have reasoned His existence but only through Revelation could you have known Him & His salvific plan for all. Yes, He created Hindus, American Indians, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Pagans, etcetera. BUT, He didn't create anyone as a Hindu, Native Spiritualist, Buddhist, Muslim, Pagan, or Christian. [Even if culturally born into any of these, it still requires a choice to be any of these.] The only people born into the God-faith were the Jewish people & theirs was an exclusive, ethnic, cultural, non-gentile religion because He set them apart. Why He did goes to the heart of messianic salvation & God's plan for all. Of all the religions in the world only three are monotheistic; Judaism, Christianity, & Islam. Only these three worship the One, True God of Revelation.
So, what is Freemasonry offering you that you don't already know about God? Your Christian beliefs already tell you everything masonry can never even admit to.
quote:
I believe, as a Protestant, in God and his son Jesus, and that Jesus is my salvation. The concept of His being the ONLY salvation has always bothered me though. Unless the interpretation of "I am the Way" was meant as an example and a recognition of his divinity...rather than a directive as it is taken today. Is it necessary to both accept Jesus's divinity AND the concept that HE IS the only way into heaven? I don't know. And "playing it safe" and professing that I believe so won't get me into heaven. God knows all. He sees into our hearts. He knows when we are hedging our bets and when we truly have good hearts and a love of God.
Christ was explicitly clear, wasn't he? "I am THE way." What bothers you, apparently, is the fear that this somehow means all who do not profess the Christian Faith are damned. That's not exactly so. Not to say that one can merely dismiss Christianity as some alternative 'belief system' for it IS the only means of salvation & its why God/Christ became man & suffered our sins unto death. We can't very well say 'thanks' & fail to our part in t |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 02:37:46 AM
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One more thing, Bill ... did I mention that Catholics are expressly prohibited from membership in Freemasonry under pain of ex-communication?
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
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July 08 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 10:34:31 AM
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| Sgt.Munro,Is it true that in one Masonic ceremony an effigy of the papal tiara is trampled under foot? Just wondering. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 11:49:56 AM
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Sgt. Munro: Great respect to you. Isn't it true that part of the reason for the secrecy was directly due to persecution by the Catholic church? That the Knights Templar were soldiers OF the Church and the crusades FOR the Church, but that the Catholic church was jealous of their wealth and power, and their determination to keep themselves above politics - while the Church at that time was determined to be inseparable with the State and rule the State from the Papal throne - hence the Church turned on them, seized their property and wealth, and tried to eliminate them? That the secrecy stems from that historical basis?
Lainey: Unfortunately for me, Masonry has nothing to offer me that Christianity can offer me as when my sponsor moved away, I drifted away from DeMolay and never continued involvement. I'm the last person who should speak for, or defend Masonry. Be that as it may, I find something appealing in an organization which extends brotherhood while holding tolerance as one of it's tenants, and recognizing and encouraging allegiance to your individual country and faith. Insofar as "New World Order" and the threat I perceive that to be, I am far more threatened by the UN and the Bilderburg Group on that score than I ever would be by Masons. And I have often wondered that maybe the concept of God as creator of the universe and of all life and peoples might not be closer to the Truth than secular declarations (which are often divisive). It goes back to that question of mine - if there is other intelligent life in the universe and you accept that God created that life also, WHAT form of Grace and worship would he expect of THOSE intelligent beings? And if they do worship, recognizing and being His creations, is it any less favorable in His eyes than Christianity in this place and on this planet? |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 2:00:53 PM
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This is not the first time I have seen or heard this discussion, and I will not take part in any attempts to explain Freemasonry and the benefits we receive from membership. Nor will I enter into any explanations as to why I belong and find comfort and fulfillment by belonging to this Order. To do so will solve nothing, will not change minds already deadset for whatever reasons, and will certainly cost friendships. I also will not discuss rituals, meanings or alleged meanings, rumors, etc., concerning Freemasonry.
As my friend and Brother, Sgt. Munro, I am a 32nd degree Mason, entered Blue Lodge in 1963. I am a ‘graduate’ of DeMolay, having served as Master Counselor (President) of my Lodge, and as a State Officer. I hold the highest degree of DeMolay, Chevalier, and am very proud of my accomplishments in Lodge. Freemasonry goes a long way back in my family.
I acknowledge and accept Knights of Columbus and their magnificent work. Many Knights are close personal friends, and they acknowledge and accept me and my Lodge for its magnificent work.
The Inquisition is long gone......and good riddance.
For those who care to peruse the following lengthy list, you will find some very interesting “scoundrels” who were/are Freemasons. Gosh! With all these subversive, evil people, it is a wonder that the world ever survived! I will admit there are a couple I might wish were not Brothers, but, what the heck, I have family I wish weren’t, too!
Duncan, me lad, I guess you and I stand in amongst some really bad, nasty company, eh?
Oh.........if you can stay with this list long enough to see it, you will notice a Catholic priest......yes, I said “CATHOLIC” priest who is recognized. I also know a Roman Catholic who is Past Master of his Lodge...................
Just to keep this on a humorous note:
Did you hear that there is a movement afoot to merge the Knights of Columbus and the Masons?
The new organization will be called MasonKnights. ( For those of you who are quizzically scratching your head........say......... ‘Masonites’.) Sorry for that!
U.S. PRESIDENTS
Buchanan, James - President of the U.S.
Ford, Gerald R. - President of the U.S.
Garfield, James A. - President of the U.S.
Harding, Warren G. - President of the U.S.
Jackson, Andrew - President of the U.S.
Johnson, Andrew - President of the U.S.
McKinley, William - President of the U.S.
Monroe, James - President of the U.S.
Polk, James Knox - President of the U.S.
Roosevelt, Franklin D. - President of the U.S.
Roosevelt, Theodore - President of the U.S.
Taft, William Howard - President of the U.S.
Truman, Harry S. - President of the U.S.
Washington, George - President of US, 1st
SUPREME COURT JUSTICES
Black, Hugo L. - Supreme Court Justice
Blair, Jr., John - Supreme Court Justice
Blatchford, Samuel - Supreme Court Justice
Baldwin, Henry - Supreme Court Justice
Burton, Harold H. - Supreme Court Justice
Byrnes, James F. - Supreme Court Justice
Catton, John - Supreme Court Justice
Clark, Thomas C. - Supreme Court Justice
Clarke, John H. - Supreme Court Justice
Cushing, William - Supreme Court Justice
Devanter, Willis Van - Supreme Court Justice
Douglas, William O. - Supreme Court Justice
Ellsworth, Oliver - Supreme Court Justice
Field, Stephen J. - Supreme Court Justice
Harlan, John M. - Supreme Court Justice
Jackson, Robert H. - Supreme Court Justice
Lamar, Joseph E. - Supreme Court Justice
Marshall, John - Chief Justice U.S. Supreme Court 1801 - 1835
Marshall, Thurgood - Supreme Court Justice
Mathews, Stanley - Supreme Court Justice
Minton, Sherman - Supreme Court Justice
Moody, William H. - Supreme Court Justice
Nelson, Samuel - Supreme Court Justice
Paterson, William - Supreme Court Justice
Pitney, Mahlon - Supreme Court Justice
Reed, Stanley F. - Supreme Court Justice
Rutledge, Wiley B. - Supreme Court Justice
Stewart, Potter - Supreme Court Justice
Swayne, Noah |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 2:43:13 PM
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That's an impressive list! Somehow though, I am not surprised at all.
I DO hope nobody thinks I approached this subject to (1) stir up trouble (2) ask for information which is privileged or held secret by vow (3) pit Masons vs Knights or Masons vs Christians or Masons vs anybody or (4) because I don't hold BOTH Knights of Columbus AND Masons in high regard. That was not my intent at all. It was just a thought that sped through my head while rambling through the corridors so I asked the question. I had been following these discussions and noted that folks were being quite open and benign when expressing their opinions about things that usually incite rancor. I was quite happy to note the openness AND relative benevolence in the discussions as I have thought on such things all my life and kept them to myself. Just BECAUSE expressing such ponderings often DOES generate heated opinions. More so since my Mom died, I have been looking back over my life. I frankly regret not following through on DeMolay and afterward Masons. It's one of the things I consider a missed opportunity. At 56 years old now, there's not much I can do about it today. But while looking back and thinking about such things, and the meaning of life, that rambling thought came out as a question and a post. That's the context I posted in, and certainly do not mean to stir up things nor pry into things.
Truly.
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 3:14:44 PM
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Hi Bill,
I understand from where you come.........believe me, I do. I also have lost my parents, the last one nearly 15 years ago, and the older I get, the more I find myself drifting through my life and life experiences, with all the what-ifs, why nots, and oops's! It is natural and to be expected. My conclusion is that I am me because I had all those experiences...good, bad, or damned lucky to still be here...and to search and dwell on them becomes maddening. Yes, I regret some things, but I did them and must accept that fact and move on, hopefully richer for the experience.
I keep a file I call "Random Thoughts" and when one of those 'looking back' thoughts comes along, I open that file and write the anecdote, good or bad, right or wrong. It is very cathartic and a lot of fun to read later on. Maybe someday my kids will be able to see deeper into their old man's psyche. GAWD!! That is a scary thought!
Anyway, my friend, remember, reminisce, search that soul, and celebrate those who gave you life......and be good ol' Bill.
Take care! It is nice to see you active again! |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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gemiller111
Lost in the Wilderness
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 30 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 5:44:04 PM
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It should be astounding to me how vehement some people can get about something in which they have no direct knowledge. But then again, in my younger days, I too beleived that there was something "not Christian" about the Masons- simple because I heard that from others. A good Christian changed my mind. He is devotely Catholic (and a transplanted French Canadian). He is also involved with Masonry in all its forms and was, at the time, the Lodge Master. Through him, I became a Master Mason and joined in fraternal fellowship with men who in ly Lodge include Christian church leaders, devote Catholics, Jews, minorities, etc.
As a former Baptist Sunday School teacher and present active Methodist (we moved cities), I can assure you that there is nothing in conflict between my Christian beliefs and anything that is said, implied, required or otherwise condoned in Masonry. In fact, now understanding what Masonry stands for, I am astounded at the similarity of professed "beliefs" and of ceremonies between the Masons and the Boy Scouts of America. (I am a long serving Scout leader as well.)
I think some of the perceived "problem" comes from 1) Masonry's "secrecy"- which has no mystery beyond tradition and the same kind of approach that many "fraternal clubs" profess in their own rituals, 2) the fact that Masons will not publically correct or defend misunderstandings made by others (again by tradition) and 3)the misinterpretation on certain themes and words that are used in Masonry and that date from language used hundreds of years ago.
For those of you who chose to believe something else, something sinister- I can't help you. I can only state my beliefs and my convictions and that I see no conflict. As a Christiam, I was given a King James Bible as my "gift" upon making Master Mason. It resides in my home next to my Confirmation Bible and the Study Bible I purchased to teach Sunday School.
As my former Pastor once said- "Just because (someone) say(s) it, that doesn't make it so..."
A newcomer to this forum who couldn't be silent,
Guy |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 6:01:30 PM
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Well said, Brother Guy.......well said. And welcome to Mohicanland! We are happy to have you here and hope to hear more from you!
Your comments are right on the mark.
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Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 6:05:12 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts! I'm glad you didnt keep silent! That was my impression also, but not having been in it long, to my personal loss, I sought opinions. Mainly about any differences between the bible I have from my Dad (who passed away in 1979), and the Catholic or other bibles (see original question).....rather trying to extend the discussion about differences between bibles and what's in them and why. I've pondered many things about the meaning of life, both spiritual and otherwise over the years......and was excited to see these discussions going on about some of these subjects. Dipped my toe in, and now I am hooked. Mind you, much is beyond me. I have not studied the Bible or religion as many of you apparently have. It takes me a while to read and think about what's said by you guys, but it's good to be able to hear all these thoughts in a non-judgemental and non-adversarial forum and even ask some of the questions I have pondered myself.
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Knights vs Masons
