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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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 Posted - July 30 2003 : 6:23:30 PM
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Bill, I also joined the DeMolay in high school, mostly because my friends did, and partly because my uncle was a Mason, and my mother wanted me to be on too. When I realized the organization was dedicated to the glorification of an organization shot through with heresy and gnosticism, I dropped out.
I think that Arnold Almaric said it most eloquently at Beziers, "Kill them all, God will know his own."
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 6:37:00 PM
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| Thanks for your thoughts, Fitz. Though I really can't believe the org is all that sinister, and don't. I've always kinda hated that word, heresy. Who defines what is heresy? One man's heresy, in my mind, is another man's enlightenment. Too many fine men have been a part of the org. Speaks for itself, I think. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 8:14:51 PM
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"Oy Vay!!" she wailed. "My head!! My head!! I am so-o-o-o confused!"
First, please allow me to apologize if my post offended anyone. If I had stopped to think, I would have realized that there are active Masons in this online community. I really, truly don't like to offend friends, or even strangers. And I certainly don't want to be partly responsible for another Mohicanland fight. So sorry!
One of my grandfathers was a Mason, but he died before I was born so I never had the opportunity to talk to him about it. I probably had other ancestors who were involved, too, that I don't know about. I have heard good things about the Masons, and know about some of the philanthropic things they do. For goodness sake, Freemasons built the Memorial Arch at my beloved Valley Forge Park! And then there is that great list of good people that Seamus posted. Can they all have been wrong?
But, then... one hears and reads all of these bad things. And my church disapproves... I honestly don't know what to think.... I am so confused. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 8:40:00 PM
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Well said, Brother Seamus!!! As always you have a way of saying the right thing, the right way. I wasn't aware that Lt.Col. Armstrong was not only a Brother, but a founder of a lodge, quite impressive. As far as scoundrels go, well I'm okay as long as I am on my medication and all of my synapses are firing properly (lol).
Brother Guy, welcome to the the board, and also "Well said".
Bill, I hope this topic helped answer some of your questions. As far as a 'meaning of life', I like to think that it is to test each person in a way that he/she may grow from the experience. At least that is the way God has demonstrated to me, time and again. Example, two people floating off shore and a huge wave approaches, the one panics the other is overjoyed. The one who is overjoyed looks at it as a way to get back to shore quickly. Or as my Great Grandfather once put it, "God never slams a door in your face, without leaving an unlocked window somewhere in the same room".
Oh, and by the way, you are correct on your history, in.re. the Knights Templar. Good point, sorry I didn't think of it myself.
Securemann, as far as the 'ceremony' you mention, I have no knowledge of such. Sounds like another of those 'Masonic Urban Legends' which litter the internet.
Lainey, as far as excommunication goes, well I do not know what current Papal Policy is (eventhough I am Roman Catholic), but my cousin (who is a priest in the Pittsburgh Diocese) once discussed the matter of being Catholic and a Mason with me. He said that he did not think that belonging to an orginization which promotes family, community, charity, patriotism and fraternity would put me in a bad light with the Almighty.
Thanks again to all for a good exchange, I must be returning to check on my men. We are marching due west on the Forbes Road this weekend to relieve the siege at Ft. Pitt. Seamus, I will be seeing cousin Malcom, do you wish me to send your regards? I think we might be in for a heated engagement near Bush Run Station...
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 9:03:14 PM
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Duncan,
Take care at Bushy Run Station. I hear that there are savages lurking nearby.
I was with Malcolm last weekend on a foray into the Iroquois country. Ask him about it! By all means, give him my best and the rest of the 77th Gren Co'y!
Slante'!
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Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - July 30 2003 : 11:48:13 PM
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quote:
Though I really can't believe the org is all that sinister, and don't.
I don't believe they are sinister at all. The DeMolay and Masons are very good people. And I don't believe they have any hidden agenda. They just chose the wrong guys to make heros. And I can't walk down that road. |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 12:28:47 AM
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Silly me. What do I know?
Bill, I know you didn't mean any harm & I answered you honestly, but the cat's out of the bag regarding the non-benign brotherhood & so long as there are members sowing confusion regarding freemasonry & claiming it's perfectly alright for Catholics & other Christians to disregard Christ's commandments I'll answer it. Though I didn't bring it up, I'll be damned if I am found silent on this one. Truth does not equate to vehemence. I may be an "anti" & a "profane" but I know about the brotherhood. What it is & what it is not. It should not be taken as personal effrontery though I know it will be - it's the truth & each man ought to weigh it carefully. It's possible many members don't know the occultism of freemasonry.
Fitz, I salute you. And yes, heresy & gnosticism are the life blood of freemasonry. [Heresy, Bill, are doctrines contrary to Christian doctrines taught by Christ. It's not speculative theology.] It's not only incompatible with Christianity it is AGAINST Christianity. Pull out & trot all the apostate Catholics & "fine men" & parade them to everyone's hearts' desire - it doesn't validate or sanctify freemasonry. For those who are misled by such men - don't fall asleep on such whisperings. To Catholics, know that you are forbidden to join with this secret society & know you have put yourself outside the Body of Christ as long as you remain in the masonic brotherhood. [See Can. 1374 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law.] To all Christians, you can not serve two masters.
[WW - confusion? Because there are notable or well known men in the ranks - MUCH more in fact than that list posted all over the internet boasts - it doesn't follow that this is benignly good. Your church teaches you against freemasonry by Christian tenets & it has nothing to do with friends & associates. I visited the URL you posted & found it quite correct.]
"For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." - 2 Corinthians
The "loyal" Knights Templar & Catholic "persecution"? No, Bill & Sgt. Munro - that is NOT correct. The secrecy & initiation rites preceded even the faintest of suspicions. For your own eyes & ears I'll post chapter & verse on the Templars. Freemasonry spins well but it is still ultimately spinning a web. The devil's in the details - as they say.
"Woe to you, apostate children, said the Lord, that you would take counsel, and not of me; and would begin a web, and not by my spirit, that you might add sin upon sin." - Isaiah
The appeal is a brotherhood built upon belief of a universal god/architect of goodness? Does this architect have a name?
"Thou believes that there is one God. Thou does well; the devils also believe and tremble." - James
There is one Inquisition no man will escape.
Regarding the unimpressive list so often posted [it's plastered all over the masonic apology pages of the internet] as if it validates freemasonry, I never see Brother Gabriel Jogand's name. His writings were rather ... exquisite;
The Sacred Cannibals, The Priest's Testicles, Letter from the Devil to the Pope concerning the Suppression of Menstruation in Girl's Communities, Extraordinary Correspondence of the Ecclesiastical F.ckers, The Whores of the Third Estate, and The Solicitors of the Fourth, It's We Who whip those dirty Scamps, Shooting the Crows, The Sacred Blunders, Critical Review of Superstition, The Scoffer, His Holiness the Police, The Crimes of the Inquisition, Down with the Clergy, and The Amusing Bible.
I, an "anti" & a "profane", was wondering what the following mean & whether it has that community, family, patriotic, national spirit & appeal we hear so much about.
"One of the most hidden secrets involves the so-called fall of Angels. Satan and his rebellious host will thus prove to have become the direct Saviours and Creators of divine man. Thus Satan, once he ceases to be viewed in the superstitious spirit of the church, grows in |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 01:09:17 AM
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Gee Lainey, don't mince words. If you truly believe that, don't soft peddle it! I mean, just be right out there and explicit!
Maybe I oughta step back....I sure didnt wanna broach a subject that might cause such sides to be taken. How is it I can always step in gnome doo doo without meaning to? I, for myself, don't take offense and don't see your words as fighting words. I wanted to hear both sides, and for sure I have! I know many fine Catholics, and I know many fine Masons. If one is irrconcilable with the other, welp, I guess I'll be damned then, cause I just don't believe Masonry is Lucifer in disguise.
Now don't take offense here Lainey, cause the next comment is not directed at you, or practicing Catholics......it's just an observation mind you, and I can't help if it is a contradiction.......but I'm NOT impressed when the Catholic church threatens excommunication for anybody joining Masons, while NOT excommunicating - or at least defrocking - priests who are wanton child molesters. Nope. Not impressed by that threat a'tall. Seems to be a contradiction there. I have to say, I'd willingly invite a Mason to dinner with my children, but never a child molester - priest or not. Now, I know you are going to say the church takes such a strong stand against Masons because souls are involved....but what of the souls, ruined lives, and loss of faith suffered by preyed upon kids? I'd say that's something I find more disturbing than any occult allegation. Jews have their Cabala. I am sure Catholics and Muslims might have similar occult studies done by their personages of high degree. In fact, something tickles my memory which so often is not codified as some more intelligent among you....so can't pull examples right outta my head. However.....
I just don't agree.
Sheesh. How do I manage to do it. *shaking gnome doo doo off foot.*
Please remember, I am making observations here......thinking aloud......NOT making allegations or judging ANYBODY. I'll let that to the Supreme Judge. And hope for the best for myself.
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 01:24:33 AM
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[Source references from Webster's chapter follows for anyone interested in further reading/research.]
The Templars
Chapter III
Secret Societies and Subversive Movements
Nesta Webster
IN the year 1118, nineteen years after the first crusade had ended with the defeat of the Moslems, the capture of Antioch and Jerusalem, and the instalment of Godefroi de Bouillon as king of the latter city, a band of nine French gentilshommes, led by Hugues de Payens and Godefroi de Saint-Omer, formed themselves into an Order for the protection of pilgrims to the Holy Sepulchre. Baldwin II, who at this moment succeeded the throne of Jerusalem, presented them with a house near the site of the Temple of Solomon, hence the name of Knights Templar under which they were to become famous. In 1128 the Order was sanctioned by the Council of Troyes and by the Pope, and a rule was drawn up by St. Bernard under which the Knights Templar were bound by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
But although the Templars distinguished themselves by many deeds of valour, the regulation that they were to live solely on alms led to donations so enormous that, abandoning their vow of poverty, they spread themselves over Europe, and by the end of the twelfth century had become a rich and powerful body. The motto that the Order had inscribed upon its banner, "Non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam," was likewise forgotten, for, their faith waxing gold, they gave themselves up to pride and ostentation. Thus, as an eighteenth-century masonic writer has expressed it:
The war, which for the greater number of warriors of good faith proved the source of weariness, of losses and misfortunes, became for them (the Templars) only the opportunity for booty and aggrandizement, and if they distinguished themselves by a few brilliant actions, their motive soon ceased to be a matter of doubt when they were seen to enrich themselves even with the spoils of the confederates, to increase their credit by the extent of the new possessions they had acquired, to carry arrogance to the point of rivalling crowned princes in pomp and grandeur, to refuse their aid against the enemies of the faith, as the history of Saladin testifies, and finally to ally themselves with that horrible and sanguinary prince named the Old Man of the Mountain Prince of the Assassins.(1)
The truth of the last accusation is, however, open to question. For a time, at any rate, the Templars had been at war with the Assassins. When in 1152 the Assassins murdered Raymond, Comte de Tripoli, the Templars entered their territory and forced them to sign a treaty by which they were to pay a yearly tribute of 12,000 gold pieces in expiation of the crime. Some years later the Old Man of the Mountain sent an ambassador to Amaury, King of Jerusalem, to tell him privately that if the Templars would forgo the payment of this tribute he and his followers would embrace the Christian faith. Amaury accepted, offering at the same time to compensate the Templars, but some of the Knights assassinated the ambassador before he could return to his master. When asked for reparations the Grand Master threw the blame on an evil one-eyed Knight named Gautier de Maisnil.(2)
It is evident, therefore, that the relations between the Templars and the Assassins were at first far from amicable; nevertheless, it appears probable that later on an understanding was brought about between them. Both on this charge and on that of treachery towards the Christian armies, Dr. Bussell's impartial view of the question may be quoted:
When in 1149 the Emperor Conrad III failed before Damascus, the Templars were believed to have a secret understanding with a garrison of that city; in 1154 they were said to have sold, for 60,000 gold pieces, a prince of Egypt who had wished to become a Christian. He was taken home to suffer certain death at the hands his fanatical family. In 1166 Amaury, King of Jerusalem, hanged |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 01:51:47 AM
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Heresy? Gnosticism? Disregarding the Lord's Commandments? Webster's "Secret Societies and 'Subversive' Movements'?
John Birch and Lyndon LaRouche, call your offices... I'm outta here.
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 01:59:50 AM
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Hey, Bill~
I'm not at all offended by your statements, or by the posts here.
Right - you asked, you got.
quote:
Gee Lainey, don't mince words. If you truly believe that, don't soft peddle it! I mean, just be right out there and explicit!
Maybe I oughta step back....I sure didnt wanna broach a subject that might cause such sides to be taken. How is it I can always step in gnome doo doo without meaning to? I, for myself, don't take offense and don't see your words as fighting words. I wanted to hear both sides, and for sure I have! I know many fine Catholics, and I know many fine Masons. If one is irrconcilable with the other, welp, I guess I'll be damned then, cause I just don't believe Masonry is Lucifer in disguise.
No offense was meant & was none taken by me. There is a difference between the individual & the organization, Bill. And I didn't invent the words of 'High Level Masons' - I posted them.
quote:
Now don't take offense here Lainey, cause the next comment is not directed at you, or practicing Catholics......it's just an observation mind you, and I can't help if it is a contradiction.......but I'm NOT impressed when the Catholic church threatens excommunication for anybody joining Masons, while NOT excommunicating - or at least defrocking - priests who are wanton child molesters. Nope.
Why do you think they're not excommunicated AND defrocked? Don't presume the political cowardice & scandalous shuffling of various American Bishops represents the Church. We Catholics are glad to see men such as these humiliated & shamed {clerics at all levels}, as they ought to be. The Vatican, despite the sensational headlines, has taken since the '80s a hardline position. If anyone wants to challenge that I'll be happy to elaborate.
quote:
Not impressed by that threat a'tall. Seems to be a contradiction there. I have to say, I'd willingly invite a Mason to dinner with my children, but never a child molester - priest or not. Now, I know you are going to say the church takes such a strong stand against Masons because souls are involved....but what of the souls, ruined lives, and loss of faith suffered by preyed upon kids? I'd say that's something I find more disturbing than any occult allegation.
Again, what happens in Rome is quite different from Boston or some such place. The Church takes a strong stand against both. But, I fully agree. A soul is a soul is a soul AND to those who injure children, in any way but particularly this way, "It'd be better for them to hang a millstone around their neck than that they should harm any of my little ones." Don't think, Bill, that the majority of Catholics or the majority of priests, and especially the Vatican, are in any way sympathetic to such atrocities or indifferent to their crimes. The less than 1/2% {that's a liberal estimate} of accused priests have injured the body greatly, & the damage to victims ... horrifying.
quote:
Jews have their Cabala. I am sure Catholics and Muslims might have similar occult studies done by their personages of high degree. In fact, something tickles my memory which so often is not codified as some more intelligent among you....so can't pull examples right outta my head. However.....
I just don't agree.
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"Fides et Ratio" |
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gemiller111
Lost in the Wilderness
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July 30 2003
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 09:36:03 AM
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Geez louise! Somebody actually wrote it so it must be so!
For the kind words said- thank you. (I'm glad you could read around my few mistyped words- one gets fast and lazy with MS Exchange email's Spellchecker!) For those who are willing to make informed decisions based on research on both sides of the issue- I applaud you no matter what stance you may ultimately accept. For those who wish to beleive the worst just because somebody you don't even know said or wrote something bad- well, this is America and that is your choice. It may sadden me but no worse than the continuing, overt, narrow minded partisanship of many members of our political parties (including the one I vote).
But like good Sgt. Munro, I'm not going to try and convince someone whose mind is already made up. Beleive what evil you will- I will continue to do my best to live my life according to my beliefs which include one and only one "Master"- the God of my chosen faith.
The following is not Masonic, but it could be (and after you take out all the ancient Masonic ritual words, it actually is)-
I promise to do my best,
To do my duty,
To God and my country,
And to Obey the Scout Law.
To help other people at all times,
To keep myself physically strong,
Mentally awake,
And morally straight.
Thanks.
Guy
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 2:06:11 PM
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I'm smiling here  and my comments (hopefully) will help lighten up what has become a serious subject indeed.
Lainey, most of those allegations and the descriptions of their horrible acts seem to have been made in the middle ages, hmmm? Time of the inquistion or proto-inquistion? Moreover, the allegations as to worshipping Baphomet, spitting or stomping on cross, etc etc etc bear REMARKABLE similarities to the same charges leveled against captured English and Dutch seamen, midwives, folk practitioners of medicine, emerging scientists, astronomers and chemists etc and of course WITCHES. 
Truth be told, I'd confess to screwing a duck while standing on my head and spitting on the cross if they wanted me to. Given the horrible tortures used.  Moreover, I'd confess to most anything knowing that IF I confess and repent, I live - but IF I don't confess or recant the confession I get burned at the stake. 
Ya know? I don't call that much proof dear. I love one of the proscribed ways of ascertaining whether a person is a witch or in league with the devil....dunking. If they float, they're a witch or heretic and burn them (or hang them in this country). If they drowned, they were innocent. Yup. Or, let's find a witches teat by poking them all over with a pointy object and then crying "Here's a mark! She be witch!" That's assuming they couldn't find a wart or skin tag anywhere! Come'on Lainey, you can do better than quoting such suspect "evidence" from such suspect "courts" and "trials".
Amazing the allegations and such that folks make when religion is involved. I went to pick Patrick up from his performance as alter boy and when I pulled in the parking lot just before service some Fundamentalist had placed a flyer under the windshield wiper of EVERY car in the lot. The flyer came right out and stated the Pope was the anti-Christ, Catholicism was a false religion, and many of the "acts" alleged to Knights Templar were also alleged of practicing Catholics. At the bottom, was the address of the fundamentalist church for any who cared to pay heed, repent, and come to REAL Christian services. I payed about as much heed to THAT, as I do to the allegations against Masons. Jews don't kill and eat babies. Many of the sins alleged of those not Catholic were alleged of them also. And Lordy, I don't even wanna go into what was alleged of Muslims during the Crusades.
Ain't our history on earth wonderful? 
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gemiller111
Lost in the Wilderness
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 5:06:50 PM
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You're a good man, Bill R. Life's too short for witch hunts- even if they ARE easy to spot as they float.
Since my intercession had nothing to do with either evangelizing or with recruiting fellow travelers, I am all done with this topic.
May our paths cross in friendly territory.
Guy
Somewhere in La Louisiene
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - July 31 2003 : 6:06:06 PM
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Thanks Guy!
Yeah, this topic did kinda go astray and far from my original question. I wouldn't mind seeing it die a lonely, ignored death superceded by other posts and relegated to the forgotten file me own self. |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - August 02 2003 : 7:00:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainey
Sovereign Grand Commander Albert Pike 33°
Letter to Italian Grand Master Guiseppie Mazzini 33°
15 August 1871
Archives British Museum, London
[b]"We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effects of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that moment without compass, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
Yeah, silly me. What was I thinking when I 'vehemently' opposed such an organization. Oh, I'm sure it's all mere symbolism.
So there I was merrily scanning through the thread and trying to avoid straining my old presbyopic eyeballs to much.
Thinking smugly to myself: "It's good to be an old heathen, and not be bothered about this sort of thing."
But then, this passage sort of popped out at me, and I thought "Sumpin' jes' ain't right here".
An old southern lawyer, remorseful (at least officially) Confederate General unleashing nihilists (did they have nihilists yet?) and atheists. Hmm ...
So I did a bit of digging.
If you go to the British Museum, you won't find this document. It isn't there. In fact, I don't think you'll find any evidence that it ever was there. Furthermore, I don't believe you'll find any objective evidence that this letter was ever in existence anywhere.
The sole "evidence" that this letter existed is the claim of one William Guy Carr, a retired Canadian naval officer, that he had hand-copied it while it was "briefly on display" in the library of the British Museum.
I did a bit of digging on Carr.
I have my own opinion of him, but you folks can put "William Guy Carr" into Google as well as I can, and make up your own minds.
I would like to give you a bit more of the letter, which purportedly outlines in some detail how the "Illuminati's" goals are to be accomplished:
quote:
The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm.
Fascists and Nazis in 1871?
Albert either had his crystal ball polished really well, or one has to accept that even the names of the parties he came up with in the purported letter were put into play decades later. Doesn't this strain credulity just a bit?
Lainey, I have the greatest respect for your reasoning ability and your knack for assimilating a large body of information and presenting it in a concise manner, but in this case, the sources for this information could perh |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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ladylight
Ye Olde Towne Crier
USA
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Posted - October 13 2003 : 12:20:08 AM
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wow, Friends! I've missed such a substantial thread of discussion!
Yes, I too find the Freemasons quite interesting, as I find the Sufis and Bahais interesting. I sure call myself a Protestant, because I LOVE protesting, and thank God I live in a part of the world where I can speak up my mind without fear of being beaten or burned. And while I am a Protestant who loves protesting, and march to the tune of my own drum, I look forward to the time my Catholic hubby and I will renew our vows in Ireland, in the Catholic Church he'd been baptized as a 'wee laddie.
I believe in God, though I believe God is obscure, I do not presume to read God's mind, or place a face or assign a gender on God, and I believe I am already saved and when my time comes will reunite with God's Light and Love ... and not because I said: Christ is my Savior, but because God is my Savior, and because I've lived my life as honorably and selflessly as I possibly could.
Getting back to the Freemasons. A very intriguing, interesting group. George Washington was a Freemason. And many other fascinating people were and are. Are there evil ones amongst them? For sure.
Anyhow, I'd like this thread to continue... am curiuos to see if it would be revived... in discussion, disagreement, debate, lies enlightening.
Light, luck, love, and blessings to all of you!
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Your Favorite Auntie |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - January 04 2004 : 03:06:52 AM
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I probably should leave this alone since I dislike bogus threads & this subject, & have little patience for dishonesty & red herrings, but ... it seems rude to not reply. So -
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Thinking smugly to myself: "It's good to be an old heathen, and not be bothered about this sort of thing."
But then, this passage sort of popped out at me, and I thought "Sumpin' jes' ain't right here".
An old southern lawyer, remorseful (at least officially) Confederate General unleashing nihilists (did they have nihilists yet?) and atheists. Hmm ...
The curious thing to me was how one could skip happily along unbothered by particulars in this "discussion" yet jump on the Pike/Mazzini letter as something outstandingly suspect. (I would have thought the Helena Blavatsky theosophy stuff more controversial.) Not at all essential to the argument but illustrative nonetheless, the letter - or fabrication, as you wish - contains plausible Pike philosophy as you would find in his "Morals & Dogma" & is consistent with his socio-political-religious views and times. Nihilists; the term was very, very much in vogue in 1871, having been popularized by a 1861 Russian novel, & its usage supports rather than questions the authenticity of the letter since there was, in Pike's day, a large popular nihilist movement. [Not proves - questionably authenticates.] It's not a political terminology greatly used in the '60s outside of political science lectures. [Where have all the nihilists gone?] It's the very word I'd expect in a letter of that time & content & the very word I'd not expect in a fabrication 90 somewhat years later [anarchists being more readily available].
The 'part' you posted, of course, I did not as I'd only seen it on the internet (unlike the admittedly convenient copy-paste entry I offered) & had no reference for it aside from the 'net. It smacks of deliberate disinformation with the intended result - your very reaction. *It's obviously bogus, therefore, all claims against masonry are bogus.* (Believe it or not, I am wary of hysteria, propaganda, hoaxes, misinformation, & disinformation & this subject carries its fair share on both sides. That doesn't acquit it of its nature & purpose - as disinformation is meant to do.)
Unsuccessful searches at the British Museum doesn't tell us very much. It's surprising how many 'things' disappear from museums & archives - whether London or Washington.
You do the old confederate's legacy an injury by dismissing his stature. Not merely an old southern lawyer & *remorseful* confederate, he was a brilliant Boston born gent of many trades & many talents. Passed the Harvard entrance exam at 15, was fluent in over a dozen languages, proficient writer & propagandist, well versed in history, philosophy, theology, occultism, political movements, and so on and so on. He & Mazzini were revolutionaries and, like all good revolutionaries, they had a vision for the world. What that vision was - let every one figure it out for himself.
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Lainey, I have the greatest respect for your reasoning ability and your knack for assimilating a large body of information and presenting it in a concise manner, but in this case, the sources for this information could perhaps most charitably be described as propoganda sites.
A point agreed to and duly noted. Unfortunately, I think you've only had the pleasure of cyber browsing this subject. There does remain those archaic objects that hold great potential for information ... books, or periodicals. I'd refer any interested persons to that avenue, starting with Pike' |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - January 04 2004 : 7:35:27 PM
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It's uncanny, but I've been bumping into things Templar all day--both the original sort and the later masonic sort. I didn't go looking for them, they just crossed my path.
In any event, I retired from this field many moons ago. It's quite peaceful on my heath, and I'm loath to disturb it. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Highlander
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
February 04 2003
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Posted - January 05 2004 : 05:39:03 AM
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I recall reading that the Templars were credited for their share of atrocities in the Holy Land. If I am correct,they were eventually defeated by the Knights of Malta(Knights of St.John/Knights Hospitaliers). |
Highlander |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - January 05 2004 : 10:23:06 AM
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The Templars were just part of the military force in Crusader kingdom, and were probably no more or less violent that any of the rest. They built a number of forts and held them until the end. Their financial base, as well as a recruitment base, was in Europe. They became rich and were money lenders to the nobility of Europe. This might be considered as one of the beginnings of international banking, although I suspect the Jews had more to do with that. The Templars fought the Muslums, not the Knight of Malta. Their holdings were given to the Knights of Malta by the Pope after he disolved the Templars in 1304. And then, of course, there's the thing about the Templars going to Scotland, fighting for Robert the Bruce, etc., etc.
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Knights vs Masons
