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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 23 2008 : 5:00:40 PM
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I found this neat little tidbit in Donovan's "A Terrible Glory" that absolutely amazed me. Here it is:
"Custer had been initially been glad of Reno's appointment to the Seventh. He wrote to Libby in early 1869, 'Reno I know well, he is a finished gentleman and a most capable officer. He served in the Shenandoah and is a good friend of mine.' But his opinion of the man would change over the years."
I ask you, what could have happened to bring a man from the heights of respectability to the depths of utter depravity? I believe the answer lies in his alcoholic consumption (made greater by the death of his wife) which spiraled out of control.
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 12:00:00 PM
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Joe, I beleive there was alot of things that entered Reno's life that
made him a different man. I believe as time went on that Custer Re-
lized that Reno had no leadership abilities. And I have no doubt that
Benteen knew it as well.
I believe once Custer came back from Washington to take command of
the seventh again he found that Reno may be a good adminstrator, but
he was not leadership material. And I think he realized also that
Reno liked his booze to much.
It only makes one wonder why someone like Custer who would take a
man like Reno, who lacked little or no indian fighting qualities
would put him charge of an attack on a village full of indians. Big
mistake on Custer's part, just one of his many mistakes on Jun 25th. |
Sgtmajor |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 1:14:19 PM
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One of the reasons that I have suspected sgtmajor is just Wiggs trying to find someone to talk to - nobody else does as the number of dead threads ending with Wiggs' repeated posts to himself proves - is that it takes a unique type of intelligence to post the opposite of what he intends, as sgtmajor does here and Wiggs does a lot.
"...who lacked little or no Indian fighting qualities..." This means he had little or no lack of Indian fighting qualities, and therefore HAD a lot of Indian fighting qualities, since he lacked little or none of them.
What basis does Donovan have for Custer's changed opinion of Reno other than wishful thinking? What source does Donovan quote? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 24 2008 1:17:16 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 7:38:30 PM
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You think I'm Sgt Major, Sgt Major is me and yet, you engage Sgt. Major in a heavy dialog on another thread all the while addressing the other entity as Sgtmajor rather than Wiggs. Confusing isn't it?
I apologize to the other members for the statement I am about to make. I abhor the dismal tactics of the dismal dark cloud yet, I sometimes (regrettably) reduce myself to his subterranean level. Having preface my statement with this caveat, I say to you dark cloud; your posts are as imbecilic as the above allegation. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on August 24 2008 7:40:16 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 8:32:39 PM
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There are few, if any, readers of your posts, Wiggs, and those who do can easily recall your many lies, your false presentations, your plagiarisms, and your inability to sometimes know what you've posted.
Sgtmajor posted the exact opposite of what he wanted to say, a trait that is so rare that the only person I know who does that is you, who happens to post to the board as well. Remember Wiggs, it's all still up, and you can never erase it or deny it. And, you pretend to other identities, so it's not a baseless canard, even if it proves wrong in this case.
And you haven't answered the query about Donovan's source for saying Custer's thinking about Reno had changed. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2008 : 6:18:58 PM
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I write this with the utmost sincerity; there is a distinct possibility that you are suffering from a case of paranoia. You spend so much time (one of man's greatest and precious commodities)charging everybody with every vile act you cam imagine.
Incapable of discussing this Battle on an intelligent level you, invariably,resort to the oldest tactic in the world. Blowing smoke and camouflaging issues by attacking the opponent's premise with irrelevant, unprovable, and unsubstantiated allegations that have absolutely nothing to do with anything Please don't stop, I absolutely love it. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 09:58:25 AM
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I'm wodering how really good a "friend" Custer was with Reno back in 1869--.
In any case, it's what he wrote, so to see if his opinion changed, I'll try to find if he ever wrote (or said) anything to the contrary. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 10:56:01 AM
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Brent, I have looked in the book "The Custer Story" letters written
by Libby and Custer, can't locate much about Reno, nothing to say
that he disliked him. I think from what I have read that it was
after he came back from Washington in "76". But in "A Terrible Glory"
page, 108 he mentions that he had no faith in Reno's ability to lead
much of anything. I don't know if I read in the same book or some-
where else, that Benteen didn't think much of Reno as a leader either.
Hope you find something. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 12:23:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Joe, I beleive there was alot of things that entered Reno's life that
made him a different man. I believe as time went on that Custer Re-
lized that Reno had no leadership abilities. And I have no doubt that
Benteen knew it as well.
I believe once Custer came back from Washington to take command of
the seventh again he found that Reno may be a good adminstrator, but
he was not leadership material. And I think he realized also that
Reno liked his booze to much.
It only makes one wonder why someone like Custer who would take a
man like Reno, who lacked little or no indian fighting qualities
would put him charge of an attack on a village full of indians. Big
mistake on Custer's part, just one of his many mistakes on Jun 25th.
Did Custer know there was a big village or fleeing Indians? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 3:04:52 PM
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The question really does not require a response, as any number
of books on the LBH will answer the question your are seeking. |
Sgtmajor |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 10:37:12 PM
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I doubt you can come up with one credible book that states Custer knew there was a village full of Indians when he sent Reno after the fleeing Indians that he was suppose to bring to battle.
Reno was not sent to attack a village neither was Benteen.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 06:35:38 AM
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Custer himself stated that he expected to encounter 1,000 and perhaps as many as 1,500 warriors at LBH. Did he REALLY expect that each and every one would flee at the sight of a 7th Cavary guidon??
He'd been told by several reputable scouts that a big fight was at hand. He well knew what the Indians could do IF they decided to fight. He should have been prepared for a fight--and it seems he wasn't.
BIG MISTAKE!!! |
Edited by - Brent on August 28 2008 06:45:41 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 09:55:59 AM
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That is the number before they left on the campaign not any reasonable Intel as to the exact location the Indians would be found when Benteen and Reno were sent on their missions. Terry wanted Custer to go the the headwaters area first which is in Wyoming. If they knew the location of the Indians a simultaneous attack would have been easier.
If Custer knew they were in the "Big Village", he would not have sent Benteen to the left to pitch into anything he found. The village was plenty to pitch into but it was later discovered on the 25th. When conducting actions against a specific location recon is necessary to determine actual location. Custer knew they were after Indians and some sort of number but how they were distributed had not been determined hence Terry's generality in his order. Custer did not send Reno to attack a "Big Village". It was fleeing Indians and Reno was to bring them to battle. Which he did but at much larger numbers than anticipated. If Custer knew of a Big Village why put it in the message to Benteen carried by Martin. Why would it state the obvious if they knew the location of the "Big Village"?
So when Custer first observed the village with his own eyes and found it empty?? did he think Reno was handling 1,500 Indians with 3 companies? If so why should Reno be worried about Custer with 5 companies not being able to handle 1,500 Indians.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 11:10:01 AM
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I know this is off topic, I know that Lt George Wallace was killed
at Wounded Knee, would anybody have any information as to where he
was buried. |
Sgtmajor |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 29 2008 : 06:42:55 AM
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AZ:
I'm sure Custer was stunned when he found out Reno had been stopped in his tracks. But Reno, having been unceremoniously routed, should certainly NOT have expected Custer to be able to handle things. On the contrary, he should have been worried that he might not be able to handle things.
As for Benteen "pitching " into what ever he found, I'm still not sure he was actually told that. And if he was, that's a dumb order when one has absolutely NO idea what it is that you will pitch into.
Again, breaking up a command when you have no idea of the size, shape,or location of the Village and then launching an uncoordinated "attack" when one part of the command (Benteen) has no real idea what is going on, is bad tactics.
As they all found out the hard way. |
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Karlkoz
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 29 2008 : 10:28:38 PM
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| According to John D. Mackintosh in "Custer's Southern Officer", Wallace's body was taken by wagon to Rushville NE because no coffins could be found near Pine Ridge. His casket was then taken to Ft. Robinson for safekeeping until it was decided where he was to be buried. He was then taken by train to Yorkville, SC and arrived on January 5, 1891. He was buried the following morning in the family plot in Yorkville's Rose Hill Cemetary. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 30 2008 : 11:04:19 AM
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| Welcome the forum karlkoz. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 30 2008 : 1:45:08 PM
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| Yes--welcome!! And please feel free to jump in on any of these threads. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 30 2008 : 8:07:55 PM
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Karlkoz, Welcome aboard, and thamk you very for the info on
Wallace. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 02 2008 : 11:31:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
AZ:
I'm sure Custer was stunned when he found out Reno had been stopped in his tracks. But Reno, having been unceremoniously routed, should certainly NOT have expected Custer to be able to handle things. On the contrary, he should have been worried that he might not be able to handle things.
As for Benteen "pitching " into what ever he found, I'm still not sure he was actually told that. And if he was, that's a dumb order when one has absolutely NO idea what it is that you will pitch into.
Again, breaking up a command when you have no idea of the size, shape,or location of the Village and then launching an uncoordinated "attack" when one part of the command (Benteen) has no real idea what is going on, is bad tactics.
As they all found out the hard way.
5 companies of cavalry should be able to defend against the Indians if they were in mutual support of each other. If they remained on offense running around outside of supporting distances or worse panic set in then they could be defeated. I don't believe Custer ever had more than 3 companies in the whole regiment engaged at the same time before he died.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 03 2008 : 9:55:25 PM
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I have been busy doing other things, but let me say this. AZ
in a post I had made about Reno and the fleeing Indians and
the village. He said come up with one credible book to sup-
port my statement. Well let me say this to AZ, I have your
credible statement. In Abstracts of the RCOI by Graham, and
and page 212,and I quote, "Lt Cooke came to me and said "Gen
Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think pru-
dent and charge the village and afterward you will be supported
by the whole outfit"
Let me point out out something to you new comers, if we can not
look and do our own research about the battle and if you cannot
depend on what has been written about the LBH, then there is no need
for this forum. Nobody, no matter who you are or may think what
you are, get there information from the same books you are reading.
Now are you going to say that statement is not credible, when it
was made by Reno himself.
If the books we read are not credible, then we may just as well
throw all our books on American history out the window. Now how
do you suppose Custer knew the village was there, and there was
a village. Also keep in mind I never said where the village was
nor how many Indians.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 03 2008 : 11:41:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
I have been busy doing other things, but let me say this. AZ
in a post I had made about Reno and the fleeing Indians and
the village. He said come up with one credible book to sup-
port my statement. Well let me say this to AZ, I have your
credible statement. In Abstracts of the RCOI by Graham, and
and page 212,and I quote, "Lt Cooke came to me and said "Gen
Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think pru-
dent and charge the village and afterward you will be supported
by the whole outfit"
Let me point out out something to you new comers, if we can not
look and do our own research about the battle and if you cannot
depend on what has been written about the LBH, then there is no need
for this forum. Nobody, no matter who you are or may think what
you are, get there information from the same books you are reading.
Now are you going to say that statement is not credible, when it
was made by Reno himself.
If the books we read are not credible, then we may just as well
throw all our books on American history out the window. Now how
do you suppose Custer knew the village was there, and there was
a village. Also keep in mind I never said where the village was
nor how many Indians.
first lets make reference to the whole RCOI so everyone can read fro themselves
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=div&did=HISTORY.RENO.I0006&isize=M
Nice try Sgt Major but you can only fool some of people some of the time. Your not serious that Reno's statements at the Court of Inquiry are what Custer had knowledge of before he sent Reno off?
So do you take everything Reno says as being credible which was one of my criteria and the second was what Custer knew? Explain why Benteen was sent off by Custer if he knew of the Big Village?
Reno never says it was Custer that told him rather Cook. Reno has every reason to remember things in a vary favorable light for himself and may have been confused in his hindsight.
If you were to read Reno's official report included as an exhibit in the fuller verision online rather than an abstract Reno Court of Inquiry,
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=goto&id=History.Reno&isize=M&submit=Go to page&page=561,
since the above link doesn't work go to first link and type in 561 for the page, and then go,this gives you Reno's official report
you will find that he states the village is two miles ahead and running away. This was not the "Big Village" rather some smaller group of Indians running to the "Big Village" Reno's task was to bring this smaller running away group to battle. Three companies was adequate for that task but not to charge the "Big Village"
So Reno's own report impeaches his testimony that he was to charge the "Big Village" or any village. The Indians were running away and that is what Custer thought my second criteria. Custer's plan makes more sense if the small group running is the target of the offense. If Custer knew of the "Big Village" before he sent Reno he would have recalled Benteen an formulated a plan to attack a standing village.
Do you think chasing a running village is the same thing as charging a village? Reno states he moved two miles before he crossed the LBH. That would put him where the scouts said the running Indians were located and the village would have to be before that since they were running from it. Even after crossing the river Reno state they moved down the valley 2.5 miles and still never reached the village.That is 4.5 miles according to Reno. So where was the village that was 2 miles away and running located at? Before crossing the LBH? Did the scouts only see running Indians an assumed a village had packed up and ran?
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 04 2008 12:39:12 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 03 2008 : 11:57:43 PM
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Go to page 18 of RCOI and read Wallace's statements. Reno said Wallace was there when he received the order. Wallace never mentions charging a village. The Indians were on the jump and to follow them as fast as you can and charge them wherever you find them.
Wallace states the first time he sees a village is after they have stopped and formed the skirmish. Wallace when ask to repeat the order to Reno still never mentions a village. Everyone else was dead.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 04 2008 12:36:56 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 04 2008 : 12:53:35 AM
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I feel sorry for anyone that believes that just because it is in a book it is credible and truth. If I believe everything people have told me there would be no criminals. Books reflect thier authors. Ask DC sometime about how he describes the contents of a Custer book without having to read it by knowing about the author.
Custer did some things wrong but I do not beleive he divided his Regiment up and scattered it knowing there was a stationary village ahead full of Indians. He sent Reno to follow some running Indians and he was attempting to cut them off when he ran into the "Big Village" Then the message to Benteen makes sense. Stop looking for Indians I have found a "Big Village"
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 04 2008 : 07:15:42 AM
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And THAT"S where he made the greatest mistake of all. Custer assumed too much. Once he saw the size of the village and once he knew that Reno had been stopped (meaning the Indians were ready for a fight) he should have realized then and there that his grand plan for chasing scattered warriors, women and ponies was no longer valid.
Along with recalling Benteen to him, he probably should have returned himself to the general "starting" area where the command might reunite.
I'm not really sure anyone knew exactly what it was they were supposed to do, and when things headed South, no one was able to cope. No one really understood Plan "A" and there was no plan "B".
And I still think Reno shouldn't have supposed Custer and 5 companies should be able to take care of himself, when he with 3 was soundly whipped in a very short period of time. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 04 2008 : 10:24:46 AM
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quote:
Now are you going to say that statement is not credible, when it was made by Reno himself.
YES Reno's official report states running Indians. Wallace never mentions a village. Reno could have made and error in memory and be misleading but not lying.
I would urge everyone to not rely on one source and find as many as possible or affordable. The online RCOI is free so you are off to a good start. If you seek truth you must challenge what you read and then form your own opinion.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 04 2008 10:31:04 AM |
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Reno and Custer; friends?
