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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 24 2008 : 2:09:13 PM
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DC, I did not anyway call Reno a coward, I didn't have, what he did
and what he did,t do points in that directions. Besides there were
enough men with Reno, that did for anyone wanting to read it.
I don't believe there is one person who reads about what happened
that cannot say they where cowardly acts. And what ever gave you the
idea that a man had to be in combat to experience cowardness. Or to
be a coward
I had a man court-martialed for cowardness in peace time. I like Brent
served my country in war and peace, and with honor. And frankly don't
have to explain myself to anyone.
The fact of the matter is he was a commanding officer that refuse a
suggestion by a Sgt, because of his concern for the men who were
wounded. Now what would you call that. The Sgt at least wanted to
go, which in my own opinion made him a better man then Reno. I said
it to you before and I will say it again, when you live in a glass
house don't throw rocks.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 3:22:22 PM
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I never said cowardice only appears in combat, did I? So to suggest I did is either a lie or an error. I said you shouldn't accuse people of cowardice (in combat, since that's the topic) if you have not been in combat yourself.
I'm an actual coward, never claimed otherwise. I have neither been in the service nor, obviously, in combat, so I do not call people cowards for their actions that I did not witness nor have standing to assess. I do not live in a glass house, because I neither claim nor imply something I am not.
You say you've served in a time of war. Have you been in combat? Yes, or no? I know lots of people who served in times of war, but never were in combat, and would not pretend to it.
In any case, Reno may have "wanted to go" as well. Neither did, though. But you only accuse Reno of this failure and imply cowardice. And when did the good sergeant recall this? What is the source of his recollection? Why is it believed? And wasn't it, for the reasons listed, a truly stupid idea? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 5:00:40 PM
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I you still don't get the picture, I never came out and accused Reno
of being a coward, something you can't seem to grasp. Now I will ask
the question. What are the requirements for a person to be on this or
any other forum.
Does it require you to have a military recorded.
Does it require you to state in what and where you served in combat.
Does it require your personel history.
Does it say you can only respond to certain peoples post, or can you
respond to any post you desire.
Is it a reqiurement that I choose sides.
If I am asked to supply references, can I not expect the same.
Are there only certain people, who no all, see all, and hear all.
As for my military combat experiences, I don't discuss them.
I have friends today that had served on the front lines in Nam,
a few of them have missing limbs. to this day I never ask them
any questions. Those of us who served in combat situations to-
gether never talk to each other about what we did. You never for-
get what you did, you don't need to ask others, and they are trying
to forget.
My own sons have asked me and I won't tell them anything, only this
I hope and pray you always sleep well at night. And I have no doubt
that Brent understands what I am talking about he has been there, and
always will be, it don't go away. Never ask anybody what they did,
that you weren't willing to do yourelf. Because when you do it, you
don't have to ask those who have. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 5:40:48 PM
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Nobody has asked you or Brent to discuss your military combat experience, or relive it, but only to say whether or not you'd actually been in combat. You actually haven't answered clearly even yet. I can't imagine why a "yes" or a "no" would be so harrowing to cough out, especially when the alternative you chose is supposedly so upsetting to you, and drawn out, and coincidently includes implication of horrific depth of experience. May be true, for all I know. I only ask that you say it is. Yes or no. And this, so the value of your observations can be weighed.
Since I have no military record, I would hardly be demanding that as a requisite for participation, which makes your tantrum of nonexistent rules so puzzling.
Lots of people know wounded vets, unfortunately, even have them in their families.
I can say I don't discuss my combat experiences either, when people ask, and look away into the middle distance, and let it hang, and imply that telling more would be so upsetting only a sadist would push the issue. But nobody's asking for more; just a 'yes' or 'no.' Most vets never got near combat.
No doubt you and Brett have run across the frauds who do this bad theater. It implies I have some combat experience to discuss without having to answer. In my case, that would be a lie. I was not physically able to serve, and I was not upset by that, being an actual coward. Neither was the Army, which demands a minimal physical competancy I could not remotely offer. I sleep right well, thanks. I'm grateful for those who served in combat, and respectful enough I don't want them to have to share their applause with frauds.
Custer boards are full of poseurs pretending to a virility and status that are not theirs. It does no harm to weed them out, and I'd have thought actual combat vets would be the first to do so.
Describing a commander engaged, sgtmajor says: "Reno had one concern and that was Reno himself." That's not an accusation of cowardice? If someone had referenced your actions in combat in that manner, you'd not think it an accusation of cowardice? Please. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 24 2008 5:49:00 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 7:35:14 PM
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Saying he did not concern himself about Custer, is not saying he
is a coward, concern is relating to or pertaining to, but does not
say a person is a coward. Not as for me saying weather I was in com-
bat. Some time ago talking about the valley fight on an other thread
I had indicated then that I had known what it was like to be shot at
in combat, so just for your sake once again let me say (yes).
Now to the subject at hand, when Reno said that he thought that Custer
could take care of himself, is that a lack of concern, when a an
officer and a commanding officer, takes off, putting his back to the
enemy and leaving his men in his command to the enemy is that a lack
of concern, when a commander, and not just any officer, but a com-
mander, does not do anything to help his dying and wounded men left
behind on the valley floor, is this a lack of concern.
And let me say this, as there maybe some out there, weather you have
been in combat or not, does not mean you have to experience combat to
called a person or suggest, that a man had acted in cowardly manner.
To me the only interest you have in these discussions is to pick an
arguement with one person or the other, your thing is to split hairs,
not to discuss anything, just find fault, just stir up trouble, and
have no desire to look at the whole picture. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 8:17:56 PM
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Sgt Major,
Please allow me a moment to present a picture of clarification regarding dark cloud. Before doing so, I would like to say that your posts are informative and,consistently documented. You know of which you speak. You certainly do not need me to defend your position as you have done so with great credibility and foresight. However, I have been acquainted with your adversary for "Lo" these many years.
Simply put he detests you and Brent for all you stand for. He abhors "MEN" who have, in one way or another,served society by putting their lives on the line. I, mistakenly, shared my police background with the forum several years ago in which I informed the members that I was involved in a fatal confrontation. The result of that information was immediate; dark cloud initiated a deluge of obscenities and allegations that defied reason. He called me everything from a liar to a child molester.
Initially I ignored his remarks as unworthy of comment until I receive many Pm's requesting that I respond back. To make a long story short, the outcome was that many posters, eventually, stopped posting wishing no part in the acrimonious fallout from our exchanges. I didn't blame them. You are so right SgtMakor, "He" who demands footnotes, quotation marks, and sworn testimony offers nothing but the splitting of hairs. That is his Modus Operandi.
Believe it or not I have always felt sorry for him and continue to do so to this day. I recently offered an "Olive Branch" due to the untimely death of a wonderful forum contributor whom we mutually respected. As you can see, the truce was of a very short duration.
Can you imagine, a life so bereft of joy and spontaneity that he can only get his kicks from cypher space assaults. I've said it before and I will say it once again, all of you guests who scan this forum do not allow this solitary aberration spoil your fun. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 8:26:01 PM
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So, sgtmajor, if someone described your actions in combat as "Sgtmajor had one concern and that was sgtmajor himself" as a summation of leading a move to safety, you would not take it as an accusation of cowardice? Nonsense.
There are police and gang members who might think they know what it's like to be shot at 'in combat,' but that's arguable.
In any case, if Reno hadn't moved when he did, it would likely have been far worse all around. And nobody has shown how the ascent of the hill could surely have been done with fewer casualties in mounts and men. Given what Reno knew - about Custer, about the terrain up north, about what was happening with Benteen and the train - it would have been irresponsible of him to stay in the timber cheek by jowl with a huge village as night came.
It's all in the spin. If Custer changed places with Reno, and nothing else is changed, Custer would be presented as having vast experience, thought outside the box, wasn't hampered by else than common sense, and saved his command by a heroic charge which he led, exposing himself to shot and surprising the Sioux. Brilliant.
Whereas, poor by-the-book Reno couldn't think of anything except inappropriate tactics as his command was gobbled up a piece at a time, and Reno himself was found furthest away, obviously leading a flight north to Terry and help, leaving his dead and wounded to the hatchet strung behind him. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 8:58:51 PM
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Joe, Let me say this, I can care less one or the other what DC thinks.
I think by now everyone who cares to can read for themselves. His main
goal is to attack the poster not the posted. No one, you,Brent or any
one else does not have to explain yourself to me. As a military man I
have a great deal of respect for those who served, and done there duty.
I never question what they did, were they in combat, that is not an issue
here. I know Brent was an officer in Nam. All I wish to say about that is
he did his duty, and thank God he lived to come home.
I say what I feel is right, when I can read it in black and white, and
from what those who were there said. And what I have said about Reno,I
meant, when he can prove to me, by book. person, or a record of fact,
then my opinion may change, there is nothing out there that can change
the facts. I think that Lee's summation at the COI sums it up well, and
he is using facts. Does it bother me not a bit. If Reno was so outstand-
ing that day, why was he not appointed to command the 7th. Even with
their pitition, they couldn't get command. Gen Sherman wouldn't even con-
sider it. He would have lost every officer and enlisted man in the 7th
if he had, I think that speaks volumes in it self.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 11:17:31 PM
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Nobody has claimed that Reno was spectacular, so pretending someone has done so is rather silly.
Again, I ask: if someone described you as you described Reno in my past quote from your post, would you not take it as an accusation of cowardice?
Wiggs deserves being drop kicked for reasons previously stated, and readers are again encouraged to start with the thread here on Benteen's Orders - although there is far more, of course - should they doubt. It's all still up in black and white, and it's why he never encourages people to read his past posts.
Or mine. I've often been wrong, but nowhere do I pretend to what I'm not.
Like many others, there are not a few military men in my family, and I have great affection and regard for them. Enough that I don't like frauds stealing applause. I don't apologize for an attempt to vet you, having been burned by supposed soldiers before on Custer forums. Anyone can say they're something they aren't on the Web. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 25 2008 : 07:00:17 AM
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"Coward" is a strong word, but I suppose the definition of cowardice is important--in Webster's New Collegiate, it's "lack of courage or resolution".
Now Reno had the courage to be in the Army, to have been in combat, and to have been at LBH. But he most certainly lacked "resolution" after his command disintegrated and he seemingly absolved himself from his proper role as LEADER on Reno Hill. Troops look to the leader in tight situations for some resolve and stability, and on Reno Hill they found none from Reno. Fortunatelty, Benteen took "unofficial" command and provided the needed backbone. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 25 2008 : 4:25:55 PM
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What happened to Reno has happened to others in history. Even the staunchest defender of military virtue doesn't have to delve far into Vietnam War incidents to find examples of officers acting dingy after their unit was ambushed with very high casualties in excruciatingly confusing situations. Others performed superbly.
The point being that those who performed superbly hadn't necessarily always done so, and some of those that collapsed had sometimes previously done well. That doesn't strike me as surprising or unusual.
And nobody has shown how Reno could have made the retreat with fewer casualties in mounts and men. Advocating tactics which Custer apparently used seems rather silly. Sometimes, a bolt for it works and results in fewer casualties than time consuming mounts and dismounts and firing lines of few men in multiple directions with horseholders and then remounts in order to unleash dubious marksmen for a brief period.
This is colored by my contention that there was an official and an actual chain of command in Custer's 7th, partly because of family/friend nepotism and partly because of his financial dealings which, of necessity, some would have to be aware. There's more on that, and not by me, from Markland and Elizabeth on the LBHA12 site. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2008 : 6:05:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Nobody has claimed that Reno was spectacular, so pretending someone has done so is rather silly.
Joe Wiggs
You actually managed to get something right, I'm proud of you. It's true, no one has ever claimed that Reno's actions were "spectacular, who would. they were deplorable. Even more dastardly is your continuous, assiduous, white washing of Reno. to review your threads for the last 5 years will show that you have intimated, inferred too, and all but screeched from the highest mountain the following: Custer was an idiot, Benteen never received orders, Reno was obligated to do squat. We all know it by heart so please, just for a little while, change your tired tune.
Dark Cloud
Again, I ask: if someone described you as you described Reno in my past quote from your post, would you not take it as an accusation of cowardice?
Joe Wiggs
I just read Sgt Major's thread describing Reno and in no way did he refer to Reno as a coward. NO ONE EVER HAS! To describe an individuals actions as less than honorable does not necessarily translate into the term coward. I am certain that if Sgtmajor wished to call Reno he would have done so.
Dark Cloud
Wiggs deserves being drop kicked for reasons previously stated, and readers are again encouraged to start with the thread here on Benteen's Orders - although there is far more, of course - should they doubt. It's all still up in black and white, and it's why he never encourages people to read his past posts.
Joe Wiggs
Why would I encourage people to read my past posts when you have been skittering around for the last 5 years like a sewer rat sniffing every nook and corner of what I write? Having done so, you regurgitate and mis-translate my every word with a venom that defies logic.
Dark Cloud
Or mine. I've often been wrong, but nowhere do I pretend to what I'm not.
Joe Wiggs
No sir! I vehemently disagree you have never been wrong. You don't know how to spell the word. You are an authoritative source for every facet of this battle. In fact, you and only you can be right about this battle. If you don't believe me just look in a mirror and ask you illustrious self.
Dark Cloud
Like many others, there are not a few military men in my family, and I have great affection and regard for them. Enough that I don't like frauds stealing applause. I don't apologize for an attempt to vet you, having been burned by supposed soldiers before on Custer forums. Anyone can say they're something they aren't on the Web.
Joe Wiggs
Oh My! someone on this forum "burned" you? How could they. You have such a benevolent personality and demeanor and all. I simply can not believe it. I'm appalled.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2008 : 7:41:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Nobody has asked you or Brent to discuss your military combat experience, or relive it, but only to say whether or not you'd actually been in combat. You actually haven't answered clearly even yet. I can't imagine why a "yes" or a "no" would be so harrowing to cough out, especially when the alternative you chose is supposedly so upsetting to you, and drawn out, and coincidently includes implication of horrific depth of experience. May be true, for all I know. I only ask that you say it is. Yes or no. And this, so the value of your observations can be weighed.
Joe Wiggs (with apologies to Sgtmajor)
I am not speaking for Sgtmajor. I am speaking for men who have experienced the horror of combat, be it upon an Asia battlefield or the ghetto of a large city. Both are extremely personal issues that are oft times so sensitive that discussion is simply impossible. By your own admission you are a coward and, that being the case, further exploration is futile because you are incapable of comprehending any response the SgtMajor may give you.
Dark Cloud
Since I have no military record, I would hardly be demanding that as a requisite for participation, which makes your tantrum of nonexistent rules so puzzling.
Joe Wiggs
Your military record or, lack thereof, has nothing to do with anything. what is "puzzling" is your egotistical belief that you are endowed with an inalienable right to make requests at all.
Dark Cloud
Lots of people know wounded vets, unfortunately, even have them in their families.
Joe Wiggs
How True
Dark Cloud
I can say I don't discuss my combat experiences either, when people ask, and look away into the middle distance, and let it hang, and imply that telling more would be so upsetting only a sadist would push the issue. But nobody's asking for more; just a 'yes' or 'no.' Most vets never got near combat.
Joe Wiggs
I can't discuss being ordained a Priest. Therefor, I do not have experiences as a Priest. What's your point?
Dark Cloud
No doubt you and Brett have run across the frauds who do this bad theater. It implies I have some combat experience to discuss without having to answer. In my case, that would be a lie. I was not physically able to serve, and I was not upset by that, being an actual coward. Neither was the Army, which demands a minimal physical competancy I could not remotely offer. I sleep right well, thanks. I'm grateful for those who served in combat, and respectful enough I don't want them to have to share their applause with frauds.
Joe Wiggs
If you were not physically able to serve your Country I sincerely hope and pray that your infirmity is as limited as possible. Simply allow adults to deal with adversity on their own. No one needs you as a protectorate against "frauds."
Dark Cloud
Custer boards are full of poseurs pretending to a virility and status that are not theirs. It does no harm to weed them out, and I'd have thought actual combat vets would be the first to do so.
Joe Wiggs
Once again, we don't need you to protect us from anything. Your attempts to "weed" out contributors is the essence of anarchy. We don't need that.
Dark Cloud
[i]Describing a commander engaged, sgtmajor says: "Reno had one concern and that was Reno himself." That's not an accusation of cowardice? If someone had referenced your actions in combat in that manner, you'd not think it an accusation of cowardice? Please.
Joe Wiggs
Reno only cared for his fair skin in his infamous run from the timber to the hill. That is a fact! His past Civil War record leans towards an honorable record. However, on June 25, 1876, all he cared about was getting away from Indians. Self preservation does not necessitate cowardice. it simply means that your personal preservation is more important than anything else. You can call it what you will.
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2008 : 7:44:08 PM
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You know let me say this, DC is trying to white wash a fence, and
it just won't stick. you can't take a war fought in Nam and compare
it to the LBH. And to understand what happened Nam, you had be there
yourself, which he clearly wasn't. Nor was I, my duties were in a
supporting role in Guam, I wouldn't attempt to compare any war or
officers, with Nam.
Look let me tell you, all you have to do is read about the valley
fight with both eyes open. Here was an officer sent into battle
that could not lead a horse to water. He's on skirmish line, and
only looses a few men, he pulls a company out and sends them into
the timber. Here he did nothing to protect his left flank or rear.
Once in the woods rather then set a defensive postion, he has his
men mount then dismount, no we are going to charge, who is going
to charge nobody knows. Now Bloody Knife gets shot, and a soldier
falls on the ground. A leader in charge of 3 companies of men, now
he panics, takes off for the hills, leaveing men wounded or dying,
and also those still alive. Now evrybody is on their own, bodies
scattered all over the valley floor, to be butcher by the Indians.
Nothing done by the commander to cover the retreat, before or after.
Everyman for himself. And who gets to the top of the hill first.
None other then the commander himself. Did he make any effort to
cover those men trying to get to the bluffs, NO, not one single
effort was made by that man to do anything for his men, they were
on there own. This officer, commanding officer of troops in the
US Army, had enough nerve to say that he, had no confidence in
Custer's ability as a soldier. I think one should sweep around
their own door step before you sweep around someone elses.
If you want to compare the LBH battle or some of officers with an
other battle, namely Reno's, try Beecher's Island in Sept 1868.
or the Wagon Box Fight. However they may have turn out alot dif-
ferent had Reno been there, alot difference between a lemon and
orange. Oh, and by the way I hope you will all take notice that
I did not call him a "coward".
Oh one other thing, is it not strange that when so many men of
the over 300 that was on that hill and heard firing coming from
down river, that Reno suddenly became deaf. I guess the bandanna
on his head covered his ears. Thats just my opinion. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 10:54:02 PM
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Reno knew where he might have been seen but that is not the same as where he went. To this day there is no definitive description of Custer's movement after MTC only theories.
So if you have references other than down the river please provide them. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 11:03:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Didn't I read somewhere that not long after Benteen arrived at Reno Hill, almost all the Indians in that vicinity were seen heading in another direction. Where did Reno and Benteen think they were all going??
To grab a late lunch before attacking them????
According to DeRudio there were Indians that remained around Reno Hill out of sight from those up on the hill but visible to him. It would not be the first time either that Indians hit and ran. While others packed up the village some warriors would put up a screen which was a very common tactic. Custer with 5 companies should have been able to care of himself.
AZ Ranger
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 11:16:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
I will state this once more, and I think that it should be clear
to every one. General Custer told Martin, what he had wanted, and
was not what Lt.Cooke wanted. But besides all of that, I am sure
that Benteen knew he want him to be "Quick", now you can call quick
anyway you may want, come quick, be quick. Custer didn't want the
packs, he wanted ammunition. Benteen made the remark in, "A Terrible
Glory" pages 257 and 258 about the order, "If he wants me in hurry,
how does he expect me to bring the packs" (If one of you have "Custer
In 76, would you be kind enough to check pages 54-55. I have loaned mine
out,thanks). The problem was Custer didn't want the Packs, Lt Cooke left
out the word ammunition in Custer's order.
Benteen understood the order, When Benteen got to Reno, he showed
Reno the order, which was a smart thing to do, now by Reno halting
Benteen. Reno except the responsibility for that order, as he was
the ranking officer at the time. Now let me say something else. Two
men were sent back, Sgt Kanipe and Martin, Now here is how I read
the situation, Custer most likely knew Benteen was not back on the
trail yet, so he sent the message to McDougall as he had the packs,
now we know the message was given Kanipe by Tom Custer, not Custer
himself.
Now Custer moves on, gets word that Reno is in trouble, more then
likely realizes he going to need Benteen and the ammunition which
is not up yet. Custer needing both, Benteen and the Ammo, he sends Sgt
Matin back, but what Cooke wrote and what Custer wanted is not
what Benteen got.
Now I am going to ask, is there any difference in "Hurry" or "Be Quick"
Benteen uses the word hurry, he knew what quickly meant, but he used
hurry instead.
Custer had not fired a shot and Reno had who would Custer think needed ammunition plus 4 more companies of men most. The empty village or Reno in the Valley at the time of the message writing.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2008 : 11:24:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Benteen
Now I am going to ask, is there any difference in "Hurry" or "Be Quick"
Benteen uses the word hurry, he knew what quickly meant, but he used
hurry instead.
Sgtmajor, there is no difference, never has been and never will be. Only one individual, on this forum, has resorted to such an unbelievable quibble regarding the obvious. Trust me, logic and common sense will not cause him to comprehend.
Joe - Make that two persons. If you write a short message then words must matter. Be quick means to get into the battle - location your choice in my opinion and come quick means report to me for further orders. Why would Custer move north at a rate faster than ammunition mules could travel and impossible for them to catch up? If he wanted ammunition he would wait for it. I believe Benteen and the pack train with it numerous troopers were to support Reno and Custer thought it a fixed location that they could find.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 12:04:15 AM
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Brent thanks for your service. I served USMC 1969-70 in Viet Nam carrying the PRC-25 as an enlisted man reaching the rank of Corporal. There was a big difference between the thinking of EM and Officers at least during Viet Nam era of drafted troops.
I spent the last 30 years in Law Enforcement with the Arizona Game and Fish Department. Currently serving as the Law Enforcement Program Supervisor. Besides uniform patrol we do investigations, special operations, unmarked and covert activities. We receive more training then I ever did in the Marine Corps in tactics and I am very proud of being a Marine to this day. We use horses in our work. I own four horses and have attended Arizona's Mounted Academy.
I believe that Reno was well within any standard for US Army officers at the time. Just because he was more cautious then Custer does not insinuate cowardice. How many enlisted men with Reno thought he saved their lives? Most of the references I seen were supportive of him.
The officers that protested the most of his tactics were not there. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but only good for debriefing and how to do things better. Reno laid out a reasonable defense of his actions. That it does not measure up to some other high risk taking officer is by choice of the United States armed services by allowing him to reach the rank of Major. If you have not met all types of officers that were satisfactory in the military I would be surprised.
If we take Reno's retrograde from the timber it was done at the speed of a charge which is a gait faster than a military gallop(a canter to us Rangers) . He was in the lead and rode toward the Indians and through them. The distance was to far I believe to maintain loaded revolvers. At the end I believe the men went into tunnel vision and only thought of reaching the hilltop. The men followed orders so there is no way they are cowards. Reno lead from the front riding at the Indians. Hardly the act of a coward.
Horse cavalry understood that the charge speed results in disorganization and fighting as individuals. Then they would regroup on the reserves or a fixed location. It was the norm not an anomaly that the horses would scatter and the troopers fought as foragers.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on August 28 2008 12:18:32 AM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 10:16:25 AM
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AZ, thank you for your service, I have a great deal of respect for you
soldiers and marines that had fought in Nam. As I have said I was in
a supporting role stationed in Guam, as a boom operator on a KC-135
I have no doubt that you have a very diffcult and dangerous job now
that does require a great amount of training everyday.
I had soldiers who served with me who had been in Nam, and they were
some of the finest I ever had the pleasure of serving with |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 1:36:04 PM
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AZRanger--welcome home!! Since you were in the USMC, I assume you were in I Corps. So was I. I was assigned to the 198th Light Infantry brigade of the Americal (23'rd Infantry) Division. HQ's was at Chu Lai (about 40 miles S of da Nang), but I spent most of my field time at LZ Dottie and LZ
Fat City--mindlessly walking up and down those high hills in a usually fruitless search for the NVA. Seems we never knew where they were, but they always knew where WE were
Anyway, as for Marcus "That was a charge, sir" Reno--it was a disorganized rout with Reno leading the way. Some of the men didn't even know they were leaving the Timber. I believe he was properly placed in command due to his rank and prior service. But at the LBH
he was weighed in the balance, and found wanting. The only real band-aid he has is the fact that he wasn't supported in the first place. So the fact that he stopped when faced with a growing # of Indians and no support is understandable. What he did after that is not.
And about DeRudio--even the Indians suggested they left a few warriors near Reno Hill just in case the soldiers tried to do something. But they did absolutely nothing--not even making an attempt to see IF there were a lot of Indians still there. Allowing of course for the entire force of warriors to wipe out Custer. |
Edited by - Brent on August 28 2008 1:40:23 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 28 2008 : 5:15:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
[quote]Originally posted by Brent
Didn't I read somewhere that not long after Benteen arrived at Reno Hill, almost all the Indians in that vicinity were seen heading in another direction. Where did Reno and Benteen think they were all going??
To grab a late lunch before attacking them????
According to DeRudio there were Indians that remained around Reno Hill out of sight from those up on the hill but visible to him. It would not be the first time either that Indians hit and ran. While others packed up the village some warriors would put up a screen which was a very common tactic. Custer with 5 companies should have been able to care of himself.
AZ Ranger
Joe Wiggs
DeRudio may have seen what he said he saw or, he may not have. After Reno "charged" from the timber to the hill, warriors did pursue, obviously. More importantly, however,is the reality that a more than substantial portion of those warriors vacated the area to meet the new threat from Custer's approach.
My theory ( a reasonable one I believe)is that the actions of Reno were mis-construed by the warriors as a chaotic, every man for himself, panic retreat. Therefore,it is plausible that to a warrior society, Reno and company's actions ceased to be a threat to the warriors and more of a tragic Comedy of Errors.
We will never know what caliber of Indian manpower stayed in the environs of Reno Hill because, no attempt was made to find out until much later.
As for Custer, one can only assume that he, and his five companies, did everything possible to "take care of them selves." Having failed to do so and, being exterminated in the process, what else could they have done other than not attacking in the first place?
In summation, the sudden evaporation of a hoard of "hot on the trail warriors" away from Reno's military front combined with the heavy firing that occurred shortly there after in the direction in which they rode off should have been obvious to Reno. Since, according to his testimony, he didn't have a clue about what was happening, what did he think? I don't know.(quote] |
Edited by - joe wiggs on August 28 2008 5:36:08 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 30 2008 : 12:25:51 PM
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The general consensus regarding Reno's actions in his "charge" from the timber seem to hover around not so good to terrible. What did his contemporaries have to say about him?
Memorandum by Captain Robert G. Carter, July 6, 1923:
'General D.S. Brainard told me this date that he has often heard Capt. (later Gen.) Whelan and Lieut. (later Gen.) C. F. Roe, both of the Second U.S. Cavalry and of Terry's command, say that when they reached Reno's defensive line on the bluff all of Reno's officers talked wildly and excitedly about the fight, and of Reno's cowardice, etc. A little later they shut their mouths like clams and would not talk...This was later shown by their testimony before the Reno Court of Inquiry, where all but Godfrey refused to charge Reno with cowardice.'
Apparently, unlike the forum, Reno's contemporaries had no issue in using the derogatory term against Reno.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on August 30 2008 12:27:30 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 30 2008 : 1:43:07 PM
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| I think the Indians described Reno's charge to the rear quite well--a buffalo hunt. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 31 2008 : 1:06:06 PM
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From what I learned of a retrograde operations. It is operation in
which a force in contact with the enemy frees itself for a new mission.
By Reno's acoount in his report it was charge, by others it was a
retreat. However I was under the impression that Reno only had one
mission, what was the other? |
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Topic |
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The validity of the Reno Court of Inquiry
