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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 09 2008 : 8:06:13 PM
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Excellent question Brent! About a quarter of an hour after the arrival of Benteen, virtually every one of the emboldened warriors chasing the beleaguered soldiers suddenly turned away from Reno and, galloped away down stream. A short while later, tremendous gunfire was heard coming from that direction. Almost everyone on the hill made a comment about it. Even Godfrey who was "half deaf" Yet, at the Inquiry Benteen and Reno testified they heard no such thing.
When the subject of riding towards the gunfire was raised, Benteen advised against doing so. Over the next thirty minutes, over half of the 7th. Cavalry did nothing but, "listen to the steady roar of gunfire from Custer's battalion downstream."
Reno even failed to send a reconnaissance detachment toward Custer to assess the situation. Do you know what he did instead? He spent over a half an hour recovering "mementos" from the body of his beloved Benny Hodgson.
While Reno was gone, three scouts--White man Runs Him, harry Moccasin, and Goes Ahead-- made their way to Reno's command. They stayed for less than an hour, evaluated the dismal situation and lit out for greener pastures. I believe that well over an hour transpired before Weir took off on his own.
Gray's time-line has Reno arriving on the hill at 4:10, the sound of Custer's volleys prompts Weir to ask to move downstream at 4:55, Custer's last heavy firing heard on Reno Hill at 5:10-5:12, and at 5:22 Benteen follows Weir.
Undoubtedly, the men became demoralized after the famous "charge" to the hills led by a drunken Reno. As I've said before, we don't run because we panic, we panic because we run. When the troops reached relative safety after a harrowing, near death they were mentally and emotionally shot. a stout leader could have prevented this utter fiasco. Reno was not the man. God Bless him! |
Edited by - joe wiggs on August 09 2008 8:15:38 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 2:46:25 PM
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Brent, and Joe, If you consider the fact that, if any great amount
of Indians had been the area, Reno would not have venture to Hodgeson's
body. Nearly everybody on that Hill heard the firing down river, of
course Reno and Benteen both claimed, they only heard about 20 shots.
And I would also like to get back to the point have made before. Reno
claimed he didn't want to move until the ammo came up. But Benteen's
men had their full compliment of ammo. None of them had fird a shot,
and according to some of the mean who where asked at the COI, who were
with Reno in the bottom claimed they had only fired about 20 rounds.
which means that left them with 80 rounds left. Now even if some had
fired 50 rounds, that still leaves 50.
So that can not be an excuse to not move. Secondly Reno and others had
said that all the Indians left there front and moved down stream,
and but a few who were on the bluffs, but were driven off. So what
was the big hold up. This what concerned Capt Weir, Why are we not
doing something. I do know that some on the forum believe that no
matter what Reno or Benteen had done it would have not helped in
anyway in helping Custer, weather that is true or not, the fact
of the matter is they should have made an effort, nobody could
ever blame them for doing that. But, for nothing anything gives
way to finger pointing for the disaster. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 4:22:05 PM
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You're retailoring the testimony to fit a point not Reno's. If anything happened to the train, the regiment was toast. Waiting for the train was not just to resupply, per se, but to get it into protective custody so near a huge enemy camp. Or are you saying keep dividing force in the face of an enemy?
There was no Saving General Custer aspect to the 7th's mission. They had no reason to think that he, with five companies, would do so much worse than Reno with three. Bounced off, sure, and headed north. Reno and Benteen's testimony varies from both each other and other officers, as would be typical. They heard firing, Benteen said it was not volley fire as some claimed. Of those who claimed actual volley fire, some claimed it from the village or along the river, some from LSH or closer. Some say there was clustered firing, but not volleys. That means that there is a large variation in the tales of those who say Custer was firing as to what direction and what it implied, if anything.
There is no evidence ANY firing heard by Reno's men was by Custer's soldiers. That's an assumption. The firing seen performed from Weir Point was by Indians.
WHY should Reno have 'made an attempt?' When did risking the entire regiment become somehow obligatory? What rule or military procedure demanded it? None. All very well for Edgerly to mutter it, but he couldn't pull a guy across his saddle in fifteen seconds to waddle south and has the gall to blame the death on the order of others that prevented him from 'returning.' Please.
Everybody wants to pose as a hero hampered by others, except they were not, and they blame Reno and Benteen, and then only at safe distance. That's possibly excusable for those who were - at least - there, but I don't find it so for those who were not. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 7:23:42 PM
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Dc, The problem you have with the train was not protective custody.
The train itself was well guarded with more troops then Benteen had.
And by the time the train arrived at Reno's point there were no
Indians to make a treat against the train. I am only pointing out
facts that Reno brought out himself at the COI. Now you can draw your
own conculsion as to what took place, but you cannot over look what
was said by Reno himself. The fact that Reno did not want to do any
thing till the packs were in place, had nothing to do with Benteen.
Reno had no orders to do more then when he was directed to do when
he attacked the village, and once on the hill he was not going to
allow any movements down river. Here you have to ask why?
Now everybody has there own opinions as to what happened, but some
of them are a matter of fact, you nor anybody else can claim that the
firing from down river was just the Indians firing. I am sure they
had better use for their ammo then to just blow it away. No dis-
repect towards you or your opinion. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 10:18:30 AM
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DC : You suggest it is an assumtion that the firing heard from Reno Hill by most everyone (save Reno and Benteen) was Custer's soldiers. Giving credit to everyone else who heard firing, that would leave JUST the Indians firing. At what?? Buffalo?? Each other?
No--it's pretty well clear that some of the firing was from soldiers, other firing was at soldiers--and those were both Custers.
And I concede the point that Benteen just couldn't very well abandon the Pack Train, but as SGT Major says, it had it's own large escort and absolutely no Indians were seen anywhere near where Benteen was. It may have been satisfactory to start the train forward, Benteen's command going ahead faster, and letting the train catch up at some point.
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 2:19:53 PM
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Dark Cloud, I have answered you on another thread as well, but
I will say this, Page, 517, COI
Recorder asking Reno questions. And I do not intend to write
the whole thing, you can read it for your own information.
A. It did not make any great impression on me at the time, because
I was absorbed in getting those packs together; and did not intend
to move until I had done so.
Another thing I will point out you, Ren asked both by his Lawyer and
the court recorder to repeat what was in the order had been given
he repeats it very well but in both cases he leaves out the word
"Quick" When the record asked if he remember the words "Be Quick"
Reno answered, Yes, I do now that you call my attention to it.
Very convenient, he would have never remember those two words un-
til brought to his attention. The fact is he didn't want to remember. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 3:16:02 PM
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| What order to whom were they discussing? Again, "be quick" is not "come quick." You are not qualified to enter Reno's mind, and in any case the note did not apply to Reno. If you accuse him of lying, to no apparent point since he'd be sure Benteen would either have the note or recall it, do you do so when people keep claiming the note says "come quick?" That's an actual lie, but it doesn't bother you. They WANT it to say come quick, and it does not, meaning they understand the difference and realize the note does not convey that meaning. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 5:43:44 PM
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Well I guess I have the right to get into Reno's mind as does
historians, writers, and others on this forum, encluding your
self. Now when you or some else can come up with one single
fact, that the order sent to Benteen, did not mean be "quick",
and to move up to his command to where he was. I don't want to
know what you think, give me facts. Come "Quick, "Be Quick"
I don't care. All I want are facts. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 15 2008 : 11:40:18 AM
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Other than fiction writers and pseudo-historians, nobody goes into the minds of the participants without at least saying "It's my opinion that so and so thought...." Most who write about the LBH, whatever their often preposterous claims, are not historians in the least.
The difference between "be quick" and "come quick" is pretty clear. I tell you to do something and be quick. That requires you to complete the job asap. It does not require your presence before me at its completion. "Come quick" does.
That makes sense regarding Martin's delivered missive, because Benteen is told to bring the packs - not just ammo - and this is mentioned twice in a short note. The packs were a known horror to Custer and would slow it down. The note did not say "Insure packs arrive safely somehow after you join me at a location to be announced later." It says "Come on", as in "Come forward" and be as expeditious as possible.
Custer had not fired a shot, and it would be more likely he wanted to insure the train - with his favorite horse, his ammo specific to his weapons, grain, medical supplies - did not fall into enemy hands, especially the principle ammo. Should that happen, they were toast. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 15 2008 : 1:48:00 PM
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Dc, I won't say you are, as none of really don't know what Custer
had in mind, but I have to say that you and Mike make the argue-
ment, and you both may right, it is quit possible that Custer was
aware of Reno's attack going badly and feared for the pack train.
Anyway it is valid point and worth looking into more. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2008 : 08:42:39 AM
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But again--the key word is "quick". And as far as the pack train--what would Custer do? Have Benteen and the pack escort (which was already almost 20% of the command to begin with, if you count the handlers) form a circle around the train and move step for step with it? Concern for the train is good--obsession with it is not good, especially when nary an Indian was to be seen anywhere near that part of the field. I don't think Custer "feared" for the pack train just because Reno's attack had stalled. He just wanted it up where it might be needed, not in the backwater of Benteen's scout.
At least that's my take on things--. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2008 : 11:04:06 AM
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I don't think obsession would be out of place. Having seen the size of the village, and recently acquainted with the notion that they were coming on, and not running, the prospect of a long fight and what would be needed focuses the mind on the train. Without the train, they were dead in the water.
There is this assumption that if the train had so many men, those so many men were available to protect it. That would not be true even if the train was together and coherent, which it decidedly was not. A large proportion of those men would be restraining the wounded mules and holding them together, an effort needed if the train had any importance. Which it did. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2008 : 10:04:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
You're retailoring the testimony to fit a point not Reno's. If anything happened to the train, the regiment was toast. Waiting for the train was not just to resupply, per se, but to get it into protective custody so near a huge enemy camp. Or are you saying keep dividing force in the face of an enemy?
Joe Wiggs
Custer observed the village from the summit of Weir's Point and, for the first time, realized the precise nature of the enemy before him. Returning to Cedar Coulée, he sends an "order" to Benteen telling him to come on. He was to bring the AMMUNITION as quickly as possible. With the enemy before him he did not need packs containing oats, fodder, shirts, under ware, pots, pans, and a miscellaneous list to long to mention here. He needed AMMUNITION ONLY!!! Even you should be able to understand this simple fact Dark Cloud.
Dark Cloud
There was no Saving General Custer aspect to the 7th's mission. They had no reason to think that he, with five companies, would do so much worse than Reno with three. Bounced off, sure, and headed north. Reno and Benteen's testimony varies from both each other and other officers, as would be typical. They heard firing, Benteen said it was not volley fire as some claimed. Of those who claimed actual volley fire, some claimed it from the village or along the river, some from LSH or closer. Some say there was clustered firing, but not volleys. That means that there is a large variation in the tales of those who say Custer was firing as to what direction and what it implied, if anything.
Joe Wiggs
You may be the only Human Being (I use that term loosely) who is unable to comprehend nor idealize one of man's greatest assets; to love your fellow man so well as to sacrifice your life. The "mission" of every civilian and every soldier is to succor his fellow man and comrade. Again, a concept you are totally unfamiliar with. As for the firing, the only two soldiers on that hill who did not hear ferocious firing were Benteen and Reno. SURPRISE!!!Even the half deaf Godfrey heard volley firing. Benteen and Reno lied under oath over and over again. Perhaps that is why you constantly defend their actions; birds of a feather stick together.
Dark Cloud
There is no evidence ANY firing heard by Reno's men was by Custer's soldiers. That's an assumption. The firing seen performed from Weir Point was by Indians.
Joe Wiggs
See Above or, for a change, read a book (any book) before you make comment.
Dark Cloud
WHY should Reno have 'made an attempt?' When did risking the entire regiment become somehow obligatory? What rule or military procedure demanded it? None. All very well for Edgerly to mutter it, but he couldn't pull a guy across his saddle in fifteen seconds to waddle south and has the gall to blame the death on the order of others that prevented him from 'returning.' Please.
Joe Wiggs
Once again we are in a realm of existence that is totally alien to the Dim Dark Cloud. When you are in the vicinity of an area in which people you know and care for you at least "try" to render aid. There is no procedure that places a "demand" for any commander to risk risk the entire command. As a member of the human society (this excludes you of course)you at least TRY!!!Reno and Benteeen did neither.
Dark Cloud
Everybody wants to pose as a hero hampered by others, except they were not, and they blame Reno and Benteen, and then only at safe distance. That's possibly excusable for those who were - at least - there, but I don't find it so for those who were not.
Joe Wiggs
Name one "everybody" who feels this way. You can not because this demented thought exist only in your warped psyche. One of a series of unsubstantiated, inexplicable, and annoying perspectives that you constantly spew forth. No one blames Reno and Benteen with the sole responsibility for this fiasco. No one ever has.
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2008 : 5:06:03 PM
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I will state this once more, and I think that it should be clear
to every one. General Custer told Martin, what he had wanted, and
was not what Lt.Cooke wanted. But besides all of that, I am sure
that Benteen knew he want him to be "Quick", now you can call quick
anyway you may want, come quick, be quick. Custer didn't want the
packs, he wanted ammunition. Benteen made the remark in, "A Terrible
Glory" pages 257 and 258 about the order, "If he wants me in hurry,
how does he expect me to bring the packs" (If one of you have "Custer
In 76, would you be kind enough to check pages 54-55. I have loaned mine
out,thanks). The problem was Custer didn't want the Packs, Lt Cooke left
out the word ammunition in Custers order.
Benteen understood the order, When Benteen got to Reno, he showed
Reno the order, which was a smart thing to do, now by Reno halting
Benteen. Reno except the responsibility for that order, as he was
the ranking officer at the time. Now let me say something else. Two
men were sent back, Sgt Kanipe and Martin, Now here is how I read
the situation, Custer most likely knew Benteen was not back on the
trail yet, so he sent the message to McDougall as he had the packs,
now we know the message was given Kanipe by Tom Custer, not Custer
himself.
Now Custer moves on, gets word that Reno is in trouble, more then
likely realizes he going to need Benteen and the ammunition which
is not up yet. Custer needing both, Benteen and the Ammo, he sends Sgt
Matin back, but what Cooke wrote and what Custer wanted is not
what Benteen got.
Now I am going to ask, is there any difference in "Hurry" or "Be Quick"
Benteen uses the word hurry, he knew what quickly meant, but he used
hurry instead. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 19 2008 : 8:36:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Benteen
Now I am going to ask, is there any difference in "Hurry" or "Be Quick"
Benteen uses the word hurry, he knew what quickly meant, but he used
hurry instead.
Sgtmajor, there is no difference, never has been and never will be. Only one individual, on this forum, has resorted to such an unbelievable quibble regarding the obvious. Trust me, logic and common sense will not cause him to comprehend. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 20 2008 : 7:34:53 PM
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Joe, Let me see if I can make myself completely clear about one
thing. It is true that some people can not figure out certain
words or means. But in some cases if not all there are facts to
back them up. I do a great deal of research in everything I get
envolved in, as it should be. Nothing is more clear then Custer's
order to Benteen, and it is backed up by fact as to what happened
when Benteen showed it to Reno. "In A Terrible Glory" Donovan tells
of Beenteen meeting with Reno, Benteen after showing the order to
Reno, and Reno saying where Custer may have went. Benteen said
"Well, let us make a junction with him as soon as possible". Look
at Donovan's notes #35 "The Savior of The Seventh".
Reno Reno insisted that they wait for the pack train and its supply
of ammunition . Some of his men had used half of their ammunition.
Some not all. Benteen's battalion had there full compliment of
ammunition. This is a clear indaction of Reno not wanting to do
anything. This is more of the hesitation that place in everything
that Reno did. Reno was simple not a fighter, to me it was more
of case of him worrying about being killed, or wounded.
He could not bring himself to make any decision. He his his force
and Benten's with an other 130 men coming up. As for his wounded
he had a doctor there, and could have left a token force there.
When McDougall arrive he could have been directed down stream. I
will not call Reno a coward, but what he was doing was cowardly
acts. Do to his inability as a leader he left dead and dying
men in the timber and on the valley floor, and only concerned
himself about one. He made the claim at the COI that Custer
had over 200 men and could handle himself, Yet he had over 300
and would not bring himself, to even make an attempt to help,
as I said before even if he went down 1 mile, or made an effort,
you can at least say he tried. To do nothing is shameful and
to me hinges on being cowardly. Through out the rest of his army
career, he knew there were many in the 7th that labeled him a
coward, both enlisted and officers. Maybe they were justified in
their feeling, after all they were there. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 21 2008 : 5:09:57 PM
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Sgtmajor, I concur completely. My reference was towards the inexplicable insistence of a solitary individual who insist on obliterating the "obvious" with inconsequential rhetoric.
your summation is not only correct, it is substantiated by facts where possible and good old common sense elsewhere. I will check my references and get back to you but, I believe I am correct when I say Reno not only fell apart, he was probably drunk! No amount of common sense can justify any of his actions.
it astounds me that individuals read of his absense of duty foray from the hill top to recover memorabilia from a dead body whilst Custer's command was under fire and not even make comment. I can only assume that there are those who have convinced themselves that Custer was an imbecile to such a degree, he could do nothing right, therefore, Reno and Benteen could do nothing wrong.
An analogy would be the O.J. trial. That particular jury could have been shown a video of O.J. slaughtering his victims and they still would have found him not guilty. In other words, there are a class of people out there who simply refuse to be confused by facts. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 21 2008 : 8:58:26 PM
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The results of the Reno Inquiry have pretty much identified the incompetence of Custer and established that Reno and Benteen did all that was possible. It was not their fault if Custer treaded where wise men refuse to go. What I found extremely interesting is a statement by Gilbert (Reno's Attorney)that is utterly amazing.
For Example:
..."A military court is always, as far as I am informed, composed of officers of higher or at least equal in grade, to the one who is interested in its proceeding. (So far so good, a reasonable assumption.)
"The reason for this rule is, I think, plain. It is found not merely in the greater impartiality which higher rank confers (Oh Oh, now we have intelligence/common sense commensurate with rank which infers that the lower the rank, the less intelligent one is;absolutely false.)
"Also in the fact that the independence of every officer requires that those who live in the suburbs of the Army. (this definition include and discredits all below the rank of Lieutenant and all civilians for a very specific purpose as we will see.)
"Let it be understood that an orderly, a private soldier of limited intelligence, who follows at the heels of his commanding officer (does the term lapdog come to mind?) is evidence to establish an important order as much as the officer who rides by his side."
"That an Indian interpreter on his first expedition can give reliable testimony upon military matters; or after being dismissed for stealing, can sit judgment on the courage of his superior; or that a mule packer struck in the face by an officer (Reno) for being where it was thought he had no duty to be (after all, what was a mule packer doing with the mules? Better question, what was Reno doing with the mules?)can originate a charge of drunkenness against the officer, and unsupported by any other witness, save that of another mule packer (read;another sub-human) can insist on this story in a Court of Inquiry."
"The charges against Major Reno rest largely (but not only)on the testimony of two mule packers, a doctor, an Indian scout, a sergeant and an Indian interpreter..."
In other words the credibility of anyone who possessed the knowledge that could reveal the incompetence and malfeasance of duty (not only of Reno) of other officers as well, was attacked. Once Wallace was induced to fall upon the side of the "regiment" the final conclusion was cast.
Today, the remarks of Gilbert would have been tossed out of any judicial proceeding before he completed them. A philosophy so biased and prejudicial could only have flowered in the days of yore when such baloney was held to be gospel. The testimony of the very witnesses who could have proven that Reno was a total failure was prejudicially discounted. Where, in any legal proceeding today,can despicable methods such as this be permitted? |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 23 2008 : 12:24:36 PM
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| My experience(and the SGT Major can bear me out) is that most NCO's and EM's can sense when they have been badly handled or when an officer just dosen't measure up. In the RCOI matter, that obviously included several civilians. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 23 2008 : 3:29:27 PM
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| Absolutely Brent! These men who experienced a mission under the leadership of Reno intuitively knew they were in trouble. leadership is that undefinable something that either inspires or demoralizes. Reno's men,after the infamous "charge, led by Reno were mentally debilitated after arriving on the hill and, incapable of further combat. Benteen must have sensed this and realized the negative effect such demoralization would have had on his troops as well. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 10:46:37 AM
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Brent Understands as I do, that their are certain things that you
expect from officers and NCO's. If for any reason they fail in their
leadership abilities, soldiers become demoralized, and start to have
doubts about their leaders ability to get them through a bad situation.
Reno displayed these traits on the hill which not only effected some
of his officers, but NCO's and lower grade soldiers.
Example, "A Terrible Glory" page 260.
Sgt Thomas McLaughlin of Co "H" told Reno that he thought someone should
be sent to rescue the wounded down in the valley. Trooper's at the hill's
edge could plainly see warriors scalping and plundering the bodies of the
fallen troopers on the retreat line and gray haired men and women mut-
itating them. Reno replied that the Sgt could get a detail up and rescue
them himself he wanted. Word of his answer quickly spread and caused some
demoralization as the men watched their comrades being killed and carved
up.
Reference; "Hardorff, "Indian Views Of The Custer Fight"
As for McLaughlin, In March 1886, he was admitted to the
North Dakota Hospital for the insane, and died there 10 months later.
Reno an officer had only concerned himself for Hodgeson, an officer
and wanted him recovered, but had no concern for his wounded in the
valley. Reno had one concern and that was Reno himself. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 12:20:55 PM
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You'd best have a lot of combat experience yourself before you call people in combat cowards, Sgtmajor. I have none, so I do not.
If you try to inflate yourself by trying to leave an impression of experience you do not have, that's pretty sleazy. Were you ever in combat? Do you feel free to leave your real name so that it can be validated? There were alleged examples of Reno-like behavior in Vietnam and more recent endeavors, would you call them a coward or imply they were a coward to their face and risk being clobbered? If not, do you only dare do it to the dead?
I leave my web address in my signature, and when you go there you find my name, address, and phone. When you have the courage to do as much (it takes none, since I do it), that would be more in accord with calling others cowards.
Regardless, the evidence you choose here to damn Reno is moronic, starting with a source with a tale appearing well after the fact, a criteria for judging evidence that librarian and not historian Donovan ignores. When Reno got made the scapegoat, everyone suddently remembered examples of his cowardice.
After getting to the top of Reno Hill, it is proposed they descend the hill they just exhaustedly climbed under fire, re-cross the river under fire, and rescue those at some distance "in the valley" from their reasonable ability to help, exposing rescue teams to destruction. And apparently, do this on foot, since horses could not descend the steep slope or do more than provide a fat target. Reno apparently thought it moronic, and for illustrative purposes threw it back at the sergeant, who was now empowered to do it. The sergeant failed to do so, probably for the reasons Reno failed to do so. Reno doesn't call the sergeant a coward for not commanding men to follow him in the rescue attempt.
You call Reno a coward, but the sergeant, having Reno's permission, could have gotten a team together by order and attempted it. How come he's not a coward as well?
The adjutant was on their side of the river - a lot closer - and being adjutant, might well have records and items of import. He conceivably could be buried, so you do what you can.
Just think before implying cowardice. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 24 2008 12:23:26 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 1:19:58 PM
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There is no need for anyone to have been in combat to write about combat, or the LBH, or any military subject. It does however give you some perspective on how men act when they are afraid, in trouble, or just under hostile fire.
Just in case the subject should ever arise in connection with any of my posts--I live in Glen Rock, Pa. Looking on the map, just find I-83 out of Baltimore and follow it to Harrisburg Pa. Midway between the two is where I live, just over the MD-Pa line. If anyone has any friends who live anywhere near there--or knows someone else who has friends anywhere near there--I'll make available my home address so they can come and see the following:
My commission as a 2'nd Lt. on June 4, 1967
My Honorable discharge as Captain, Infantry, US Army Reserves, on August 31, 1976
My Bronze Star as a 1'st LT in the 23'rd Infantry Division,for the period July 1968 to July 1969 in Vietnam
My DD 214 showing my dates of active duty (7-2-67 to 7-4-69) and my MOS as 1542 (Infantry Unit Commander). By rank under which MOS I was qualified to lead a platoon (43 men) or a Company (180 men).
Most all of these documents are in frames on my wall, but I could manage to get them down and out and xerox them to mail anywhere.
I was strictly involved with "small unit tactics" and no more. And
now that's out of the way, it gives me no more qualification to comment on the LBH than anyone on the boards!!
DC-Don't think the SGT Major was calling Reno a coward. He was at the LBH and in a fight. He didn't turn tail and run for it. But I think Joe and the SGT major are right in that Reno wasn't the man for the job that day. From all the comments made, it does appear he was drinking. He simply became unglued (probably at the time he got spattered with brain matter) lost control, and was thereafter ineffective as a commander. Even Benteen could sense that when he arrived on the Hill. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 24 2008 : 1:32:39 PM
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I've never said that you have to have combat experience to post about the LBH. I say you'd damn well better have combat experience before calling people a coward. That was, and has been, pretty clear, so I'm puzzled by your confusion. However, it did give you opportunity to list your own impressive achievements, although not relevant, as you weren't calling anyone a coward.
Describing a commander engaged, sgtmajor says: "Reno had one concern and that was Reno himself." That's not an accusation of cowardice? If someone had referenced your actions in combat in that manner, you'd not think it an accusation of cowardice? Please. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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The validity of the Reno Court of Inquiry
