| Author |
 Topic  |
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 26 2007 : 2:00:32 PM
|
According to Dark Cloud:Several people claimed to have heard firing while at the morass, but they only said so because others did.If they did hear firing it may only have warriors firing alarm shots. After watering his horses Benteen only saw a need to travel at pack train pace until he received the order that gave him responsibility for the train.He then speeded up a little and seperated from the train. Custer was in no trouble when he sent the note, but by the time Benteen got it, Custer and his entire command were dead.
Only war heroes are entitled to comment on Reno and Benteen's performance, but DC is entitled to declare Custer incompetent.
Well DC it wasn't a good day for any of them, but Reno and Benteen share blame along with Custer. No one here has held Custer blameless. |
  |
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 3:11:40 PM
|
Dark Cloud, I have no ideaa where the shots may have come from or the firing
that was heard. Godfrey said while watering, we heard firing in advance. Now
to me I would think the advance was in the direction Custer and Reno went or
the trail they were following, which was in Reno's direction. Now I have said.
before, what ever the firing or where came from I cannot say. And you may be
correct when you say it could have been by Indians. What was said was this,
Godfrey said at the time the firing was heard, they were several miles from
from the Reno battlefield When this firing was heard I don't believe Major
Reno was engaged yet. By Gray's timetable, Reno was preparing to make his
attack, at the time Benteen was headed for the lone Tepee. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 4:51:31 PM
|
It is true that we have no idea of where the firing was coming from. DC may well be right that they were warning shots.Still you would think that a commander hearing or being told of firing would consider the possibility of a fight and that maybe more than a packtrain pace was called for.
I agree that it seems early for Reno to be engaged. That is why I mentioned that Ryan and his detail claimed to have fired the opening shots before Reno dismounted and formed his skirmish line. |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 7:31:22 PM
|
Prolar, In additon to the firing that was heard at the morass, Godfrey tells
of loud cheering. Now we know the Indians did not do that. And as you know
some of Reno's soldiers began to cheer, and Reno ordered them to stop that
noise. Which then you would have say the firing heard came from Reno's front. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 9:59:15 PM
|
Sgt/Major, Good point,I hadn't condidered the cheering.
I have debated with DC for some time. For the most part his arguements have been well reasoned, but sometimes he can be extremely aggraviting. I think that sometimes his desire to defend Reno and Benteen overwhelm his reasoning. I do enjoy the points you and Brent bring up, though I don't all ways agree. |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 27 2007 : 11:48:04 AM
|
Prolar, Let me say this, DC is a good guy and I enjoy debating with him
a great deal, and I value his opinions, as I do you and Brent. I think
you three guys have alot on the ball, thats what makes the subjects on
LBH interesting. When you get into the subject of the LBH it is like you
stepping into quicksand. DC has his opinions about Benteen and Reno and
I respect that, as you I, and Brent have. And I have never fudged on my
opinions of Reno and Benteen, Nor Have I ever pulled any bones about
Custer. There are many things I feel he could have done that he didn't
do. As an old military man, I feel there are things you have to when you
are a commander, and there are some Custer didn't do. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 5:54:24 PM
|
Prolar, After doing some more reading on the subject, I found that in Sgt
Kanipe had claimed that when Custer stopped to watch Reno's attack, which
was near Reno's hill. It was here they got their first look at the Indian
village, and he says the men all began to holler and yell. Now at this time
Reno was not engaged. Now Godfrey said that Custer's battalion could been
seen and could be distinguished by troops mounted on grey horses. Two or
three times we heard loud cheering and a few shots. Then he said that some
time later they heard the firing. So the cheering that was heard may have
been Custer's men. And the firing may have been Reno. But that brings up
the fact that Godfrey said they were several miles from the Reno Battle
field, and Custer would have been at the same distance.
|
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 6:40:07 PM
|
Did Godfrey say he heard shots and cheering or that others heard them? He had hearing difficulties didn't he?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 6:46:38 PM
|
For each statement he made concerning the cheering and few shots, and the
firing while watering their horses he said "WE" |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 7:04:24 PM
|
| I am curious on the timing of when Godfrey said we heard cheering. Is this in reference to the recognition of Benteen to the rescue? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 7:16:06 PM
|
At the time it took place, is when Beteen and his troops were coming to
Custer's trail and watering their horses at the morass, this is where
Godfrey said we heard the firing. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 7:20:22 PM
|
I understood the firing timing. It is the cheering that I have a question about the timing.
quote:
Prolar, In additon to the firing that was heard at the morass, Godfrey tells
of loud cheering. Now we know the Indians did not do that. And as you know
some of Reno's soldiers began to cheer, and Reno ordered them to stop that
noise. Which then you would have say the firing heard came from Reno's front.
|
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 30 2007 7:21:51 PM |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 8:49:58 PM
|
In two cases we know from what others had written that there was some
cheering,hollering or yelling, that was comeing from the advance as Lt.
Godfrey called it. Yelling and the troops mocking Indians was coming from
Reno's front, and what Sgt Kanipe said of Custer's troops yelling and of
hollering when they saw the village. The pack train was behind Benteen,
Godfrey said in the advance. Which to me could only have been in Reno's
and Custer's direction. And as far as I know or anybody else knows, there
was nobody between Benteen, and Reno, or Custer.The firing or the cheering
was not what I was really concerned about. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 01 2007 : 10:52:15 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Prolar, After doing some more reading on the subject, I found that in Sgt
Kanipe had claimed that when Custer stopped to watch Reno's attack, which
was near Reno's hill. It was here they got their first look at the Indian
village, and he says the men all began to holler and yell. Now at this time
Reno was not engaged. Now Godfrey said that Custer's battalion could been
seen and could be distinguished by troops mounted on grey horses. Two or
three times we heard loud cheering and a few shots. Then he said that some
time later they heard the firing. So the cheering that was heard may have
been Custer's men. And the firing may have been Reno. But that brings up
the fact that Godfrey said they were several miles from the Reno Battle
field, and Custer would have been at the same distance.
This seems to be conjecture or reported by others not in his battalion that you are stating Godfrey is providing rather than anything he witnessed such as the gray horses or the yelling. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 01 2007 : 10:55:41 AM
|
| A trot is the customary pace to move from one place to another without wearing out the horses. In this case they were all ready worn down so the trot may have been slow. How much time did it take for the packtrain to arrive at Benteen's junction with Reno? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 01 2007 : 11:40:15 AM
|
| Which makes me wonder--did Custer mean come at the customary pace when he said "hurry" and "quickly" and "quick"??? |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 01 2007 : 2:57:53 PM
|
I would think that if I was writing an article and said we, that would
enclude me, I do not think Godfrey would write something he did not see
or hear himself, if so I believe he would have stated such. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2007 : 12:54:52 PM
|
Brent,
You have brought up a critical point in the study of the battle that is more often than not over looked. The contents of the note Benteen received are, of course, essential to understanding this action. However, an additional, equally important issue is the selection of the individual who delivered the note;John Martini.
Martini was a youthful, inexperienced, recent immigrant who spoke faulty English at best. If Custer's situation was alarming and critical at the time the note was sent, it is only feasible to think that a more experience courier would have been selected. Rather, I think, Custer was excited and elated that the village had not escaped and he was on the thresh hold of success. What he needed was Benteen's troops and the ammunition packs to supplement his forces as the village, he now realized, was even larger than anticipated.
Believing that the Warriors were to his front and not the flanks, he rightfully believed that the trip to the rear would be safe enough, even for a youth like martini, to complete the mission. Such a choice would spare him from sending a more experienced soldier, all of whom he would soon need.
Lt. Cooke, to ensure that Martini's Heavily accented English may be misunderstood, sent a written message (directive) also. When the human mind is under stress of any kind (to include acute excitement) psychological acrobats will sometimes occur. For instance, the note read, "bring packs." He then adds what appears to be an unnecessary post script if his intent was for Benteen to bring all of the packs, "bring packs." Why repeat the same order? Could it have been that in his excitement he left out the critical word "ammunition" Realizing he had done so he attempted to correct the error with his P.S. only to commit the same mistake.
My rational behind this is that Custer, at this point, made personal observations that precluded that the village was spread out for miles but, ahead of him. He did not want a repeat of his earlier miscalculations at the battle of the Wa****a. Not knowing the disposition of the extended village there almost brought about his demise of he and his men. Feeling confident he,therefore, re-calls the rest his command and ammunition which would sorely be needed soon.
Custer would have no military requirement to bring in packs that contain clothing, food stuffs, horse shoes, etc. to support an imminent and enormous battle that he perceived would be quick and furious with a sudden implosion of the warriors motivation and ability to fight his command without jeopardizing the lives of their women and children.
Subsequent reality would prove him wrong as in the Reno Hill situation but,on that day, he was wrong about a lot of things.
|
Edited by - joseph wiggs on October 14 2007 1:12:20 PM |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2007 : 10:48:48 PM
|
JW, Keep in mind that a messaage was sent to the pack commander before
Martin carried his message to Benteen. When Custer had reached a point
near the southern end of Sharpshooters Ridge, and seen the village for
the first time. Tom Custer sent Sgt Kanipe back to McDougall to bring
up the pack train, and to come straight across high ground-if packs get
lose to cut them off, come quick. Big Indian camp. It seems strange here
again that they didn't just say bring ammunition Big Indian camp.the packs
would not seem at that time as important. It maybe that Custer remembered
that at the Wa****a Battle, losing the mens haversacks and overcoats to a
force of indians and a big part of them had to be abandoned. He may have
thought about that and wanted all the packs up. As always talking about
the LBH is like entering quicksand. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 15 2007 : 1:27:37 PM
|
| I know the packs are important--but I'm wondering if TOO much attention was being paid to the darn packs at the expense of the battle itself. I can't believe Custer would have thought McDougall/Benteen would have ignored or simply left the packs. And of course the note didn't say 'be quick--forget the packs". But as I suggested before, at some point the pack train and it's escort has to hunker down somewhere and fend for itself. If every move has to revolve around the packs, nothing will be accomplished. |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 15 2007 : 4:16:28 PM
|
Brent, I agree with what you are saying. To me it would seem more important
to have the ammunition, then the hole pack train. And it would seem to me
that Custer and his officers would have made that clear. They should have
known that it would take time to get that pack train up to where they were.
In addition to that Custer did not sit and wait, he continued moving toward
the north. Bringing up the entire pack train, Custer lost valuable time. And
unless I miss my guess, he had no idea how far from his command the pack train
was. |
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 15 2007 : 8:18:26 PM
|
Let us discuss another point, regarding the "last message" that has always mystified me. After reading the note, Benteen passed it on to Capt. Weir who passed it back without any comment. Benteen is reported to have stated that it would be foolish of him to go back for the packs and,continued on. Weir made no comment, recommendation, or counter suggestion at that point.
It could be suggested that Benteen, who did not like Custer, chose to ignore the spirit of the note. Weir, on the other hand, was a member in good standing of the "Custer Clan" fan club;those men who held the General in high esteem. Yet, apparently, he experienced no concern (at least he did not voice any)for Custer nor did he make any attempt to hurry the column up.
Why do we have a similar reaction to what may have been a critical order by two men who were diametrically opposed in their feelings towards the General. Perhaps neither one discerned a need to do anything other than what they did.
Neither message brought about the desired request of hastening the columns. In summation, I believe my earlier post may given some insight into what may have been the intent of the General who sent the message. This thread expounds upon the total lack of reaction to Kanipe's message and the General'ssubsequent note. I believe the consensus of this board is correct, too much has been made of the note. It turned out to be inconsequential.
|
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2007 : 05:48:34 AM
|
That's a good point Joe about Weir seeing the note and apparently having no reaction. Of course the results weren't exactly inconsequential to Custer, who (if some of the books I've read are correct) was waiting for and expecting Benteen.
This situation of course needn't have happened at all. I believe Lt Gibson has it down pat what Benteen was REALLY supposed to do--Benteens entire command was sent to go "about 5 miles" just to see IF any Indians were escaping up the valley after which they were to HURRY and rejoin the command as soon as possible. Which suggests to me that Custer really didn't think that was a terribly likely scenario.
OF course he needed that information, but why send two troops of cavalry just to find out?? That "finding out" mission could have been accomplished by a few scouts, or even just the small patrol led by Gibson. Sending 100+ men who were sorely needed elsewhere was a BIG mistake.
And the rest is history---. |
|
|
|
Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2007 : 12:37:08 PM
|
Capt Weir, was not going to say anything or comment. And I am sure that
Benteen past the note to purposely. Benteen may have thought that Weir
would make a move. When Benteen was given the note, it was his duty as
the commander of that battalion of not only informing Weir, but he should
have also informed his other troop commanders. Benteen wanted someone else
to take the responsibilty, he did not concern himself about it, as he had
said himself that he felt that Custer could take care of himself. I have
spent many years in the service, and had commanders I did not like. However
that never kept me from performing my duty or doing as ordered. When Benteen
reach Reno, he did the same thing, he handed the note Reno, who also did any
thing. it came down to Capt Weir again. No how you look at it you can not
change history. Talking about the LBH is like entering quicksand
|
Sgtmajor |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2007 : 1:50:26 PM
|
Really. Why was it Benteen's duty to show a note to company commanders? Did Custer show his actual written orders - as opposed to the exhortation from Cooke to Benteen - to his company commanders? Why would he? Where is it stated such is a commander's duty?
On what basis, other than guess and prejudice, do you enter officers' minds to know what they thought?
|
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
The missing officers--
