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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 19 2007 : 7:52:03 PM
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| Sgt/Major, You have summed it up well. Custer underestimated the Indians determination and ability to fight. With the information he had, his mistakes are understandable if not excusable. Both Benteen and Reno fell short in their duties. If they had performed better the result might still have been disaster., but with less guilt and blame to go around. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 20 2007 : 05:33:10 AM
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I guess that's the bottom line-. Many felt Benteen and Reno should have died that day also--doing their duty. Duty to help the commander, no matter how flawed the battle plan was. (And I believe it was flawed in several major ways).
Of course Benteen and Reno obviously didn't feel exactly the same way. And that's why we're still discussing this down the years. Boils down to what the fellow at the Reno inquiry said: Die fighting honorably, or sit dishonored on a hill.
And as for Sturgis--perhaps he wouldn't have attacked at all that day. Just waited for the other troops, the Indians spot him and move away, and the whole thing reset for some other time and place. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 20 2007 : 08:43:53 AM
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It is hardly just Reno and Benteen who disagree with that juvenile view. Even the soldiers they saved, trying to play it both ways (we coulda been heroes if they hadn't stopped us....)poked about reality.
Unfortunate it is that those always demanding that others die bravely somehow never are afforded the opportunity to provide an illustrative example themselves. Among those who feel this way, few seem to have served in a military at all, fewer served in combat, and of those who did opinions vary as to their competencies and accomplishments, as would be natural and expected.
Somehow, it has become acceptable for the third rate to question if not denigrate those who served in combat under conditions few can imagine, without fear of blowback. The controversies between soldiers involved in this battle aren't beyond the norm found in many battles.
What "duty" does a soldier have to 1.) die, 2.)die according to some demented concept of juvenile 'honor', 3.) die under conditions detrimental to the mission if not actually at odds to it? Zippo. That's the opposite of Patton's view. Further, what was commander Custer's duty to his men and mission? Well, competence, among other things. If you choose to bring on a battle, know who, where, stuff like that. Stuff he didn't do. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 20 2007 : 11:49:32 AM
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I guess others might argue--is your duty simply not to get hurt--or killed?? Caution, prudence etc. can certainly help in that endeavor, if that's all you are really trying to do.
Try to help Custer--or save ourselves. Choice made. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2007 : 3:02:30 PM
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I would have to assume from what Dark Cloud is saying is, that Custer went
into battle never knew who or what he was fighting against or as to where
they were. I would then have to think that from the time he left the divide
until he attack the village he was wearing a blind fold. And when he sent
Major Reno on to attack the Indian village, he did not know that they where
Indians, or that he was at the LBH. Kennethmd asked me, if I thought that
Custer knew Reno was retreating. I don't think he did, but I think he knew
that he was in trouble and had alot of Indians in his front. Reno had sent
mesaages to Custer with two soldiers telling Custer what was in front of
him. Those two soldiers died with Custer, so he must have have known about
Reno's problem.Custer knew that Reno was in trouble and he also had sent
for Benteen, his movements may have been put in motion to draw the Indians
in his direction, taken the pressure off of Reno and keeping a way open for
Benteen. This is only my opinion, and I am sticking to it.And my reasons are
I was an Army man for 29 years,and have been in combat. I know what it is like
to be shot at, Shelled by artillery, and mortar fire. I never went into battle
with the notion, it was my duty to died. I went in to battle to accomplish the
mission given to me and and my men and to do it to the best of my ability and
training, and to do it with as liitle loss of life as possible. But Sir, war
is war and battles are battles, no war or battle is fought without a loss of
life. One could say Custer was glory hunting. I don't think so, if Custer was
glory hunting, he would have line his regiment up on that valley floor, bowed
to his enemy, with flags flying he would have made gallant charge. Keep this
in mind no body you I or anybody knows what Custer was up to, and yes he made
mistakes, but I know of know commander who took the field to fight, that did
not make mistakes, and many of them lost many more lives then Custer, You know
when I was in the army, I had a saying, it is easy to kick a dead dog, he can't
fight back. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2007 : 7:25:20 PM
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| Sgt/Major, Well said and a sincere thank you for your service. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2007 : 12:03:53 AM
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Prolar, thank you for those kind words. It has been a privilege and and
an honor to serve this great nation. Many men and women, both officers
and enlisted persons, I had the great privilege of training, and many of
them have been and still are fighting in Irag. There is not one day that
goes by that I don't wish I could stand beside them. And there are those
I have attended their funerels. To me there is nothing worst then being
an old soldier. And to all of you I ask, take the time and thank a Vet or
Soldier who serves this great nation, and to those who have given their
lives to this great Nation we call America. And I want to thank all of
you great people for standing behind me and all those young men and women
who serve this great nation, it is a privilage I am honored to have had. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2007 : 10:30:40 AM
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Not into animal abuse, but if I kick any animals, they're the ones who throw their saddle across the backs of the dead for their own elevation.
If people feel competent and superior enough to damn Reno and Benteen, they'd better be war heroes themselves. Custer is given every benefit of the doubt, Reno and Benteen zero, and that's neither fair, nor accurate. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2007 : 11:39:32 AM
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DC you know better than that!! Custer isn't given every benefit of the doubt-heck, I'm firmly in the camp of those who believe it was mostly all his fault--meaning that if it weren't for his very flawed battle plan, confusing orders, poor timing, etc etc neither Reno nor Benteen would have found themselves in the position they were in.
I wouldn't damn either of them, but I don't believe Reno and Benteen deserve any praise for what they did (or, as the case may be, didn't do) that day. They made a battlefield decision they had a right to make,and the rest is history.
Tell me this tho--had someone like Keough (or other Custer clansman) been in charge of Benteens column, do you think they would have holed up with Reno? Or continued on to Custer? Not talking about whether or not it would have helped, or if they would have been killed. Just--WOULD they?? And that's sort of what I was getting at in my original post--what might other officers have done. |
Edited by - Brent on September 22 2007 11:42:11 AM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2007 : 12:38:04 PM
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It is a well known fact that any commander who takes to the field to do
battle with an enemy is responsible for its success or failure. And it is
the responsibility of subordinate commanders, to act in manner that would
aid in the success of that mission. As I have stated before when Captain
Bentten came to the Morass, Godfrey heard firing up a head, the only one
to make a move was Weir. Soon after that Benteen rides along side of Weir
and hands him the note. What did he want Weir to do, the order was not to
Weir, it was and order to him period. And at that moment he should have
done everything he could to obey that order. he did not, so to me that is
nothing but,incompetence on the part of a subordinate command. And also
keep in mind, he also did the same thing on reaching Reno, he handed him
the order. Reno was just as bad or worst. He took off without ever letting
his company commanders know what he was doing. And leaving wounded men to
the fate of the enemy. As I have said before and I will say again, Custer
had made mistakes, and it had cost him his life. It is no big thing that
there are those who just don't like Custer, I don't really care. Custer
is dragged throught the mud because he losst 210 men at the LBH. Let me
ask this Was Gen Grant in competent at the Battle of Cold Harbor when he
lost 6,000 men in attack. Would you say Gen R.E. Lee was incompetent when
he had Pickett make his charge at Gettysburg. Nor do commanders that go
into battle have to bare the blame all by them selves. I think the officers
at the top have take some of the responsibility as well. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2007 : 1:04:28 PM
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Good points.
And I don't believe Custer was incompetent at all. Just at the LBH he was in too much of a hurry and arrived at a battle plan that was pretty wrong for the terrain and the circumstances. One that demanded some coordination and there was none. And he had no real idea of the size or shape of the village, nor the terrain he'd have to travel. Under those conditions, splitting the command 3 ways wasn't a good idea. And he and his men paid that price. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2007 : 2:01:03 PM
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Brent, I agree with you 100%. There is one thing you always have to under-
stand when you are going into battle. The advantage always has to go to the
the defender The defender has that advantage because they are more familier
with the terrain.They know where obstacles are and they try to maneuver you in
to them. And I believe this what the Indians did to Custer. They did their
best to maneuver him into positions he could not escape from.One of those was
the deep ravine. Once those soldiers went in, they could't get out. If and
I am saying "IF", Custer had kept his command together, and moved over off
cemetery ridge to the flat area around Ford "D" (as Fox calls it) he may
have made it very difficult for the Indians. But, for some unknown reason
he was playing the hand the Indians were dealing. What his motives where or
why he was maneuvering the way he was nobody knows. But in my own opinion
the Indians were maneuvering him into it. They had the advantage of knowing
the terrain, and to get Custer to move where they wanted him to go. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2007 : 4:13:15 PM
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Custer IS given every benefit of the doubt, and an industry of Custer adulation makes a lot of money. The mostly revolting and quite homoerotic paintings still created and sold.
I think Benteen deserves a great deal of praise for coming upon a dissolving command, figuring out that what he'd been recently told was bogus, with officers going off on their own. He avoided all confrontations in front of the men, brought everyone together and survived. Pretty good.
Keogh wasn't a Custer fanatic, and holing up was about all they could do without risking the regiment. Your assumption is that there was an obligation to ride to Custer - well, search for him - while risking the train and wounded. That's not true. If another officer would have, that would be a terrible officer.
Sgtmajor, you assume far too much. Godfrey doesn't hear firing ahead at the morass. He says firing was heard. He doesn't say "I heard" which is the criteria for a testimony or a repeated common wisdom. Firing was heard, okay. What firing could that be heard from the morass?
It's fifty minutes after he leaves the morass Kanipe passes them. About fifteen minutes later, they meet Martin, one hour after the morass. That's when he hands WEir the note, since he couldn't have before receiving it. But they advanced with drawn weapons at the trot, the fastest speed allowing them to arrive in shape to fight.
Custer is not dragged through the mud because he lost a battle and 210 men. He's blamed for doing so pointlessly and unnecessarily.
Yes, Grant was incompetent when he lost those men at Cold Harbor, and so was Lee at Gettysburg. They were rarely incompetent, but those were their mistakes, nobody else's.
Your last paragraph contradicts your first.
Brent, if after listing all Custer's failings that day, what WOULD you consider incompetent?
It's not true that the defenders always have the advantage of knowing the terrain. They may only have arrived just before the attackers. I don't think anything was required of the Indians to maneuver soldiers into place of potential cover. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2007 : 5:12:20 PM
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Are you trying to tell me Godfrey heard firing ,but didn't hear it.
He said himself, "while watering we heard firing in advance" but he
didn't hear it, so how can he make the statement he heard firing. And as
for Benteen and Weir, it does not make any difference where he was when
he gave Weir the note, my question was, what did he expect Weir to do.
The order was not to Weir it was to him. Did he think Weir would take
off and head for Custer. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2007 : 05:38:31 AM
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DC: I guess my idea of incompetent is a complete boob with no idea what to do or how to do it. Custer had a plan--it just wasn't right for that day or those circumstances. Add to that some unknowns (a completely fighting village) and a disaster resulted.
Which gets me wondering--I always read that the Indians were expected to flee-run-scatter. Did the 7th actually expect NO resistance at all?? It should have been clear that the Indians were very capable of inflicting damage (Fetterman and Wa****a being well known to Custer) and given the general run of things in the West,I would have expected Custer to have some idea that the Indians had more than just bows ,arrows and stones. |
Edited by - Brent on September 24 2007 05:39:20 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2007 : 12:04:02 PM
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Brent,
Custer had a plan? What was it? He ordered three companies to attack an entity about which he knew nada. He assumed he could support the attack, it seems, by hitting them from the east downriver, but he had no clue about a crossing point or how big the village was or anything whatsoever. What are you decorating as a "plan" when he didn't know butkis about the enemy, including size, location, access?
Are you trying to tell me Godfrey heard firing ,but didn't hear it. He said himself, "while watering we heard firing in advance" but he didn't hear it, so how can he make the statement he heard firing. As your own sentence reveals, he did NOT say "he heard firing." He can say this just as people at Pearl Harbor could say "When our ship was hit, we rushed to our stations and returned fire." That doesn't mean the speaker is saying he himself returned fire. His station might have been in the wardroom.
When people - such as officers experienced in speaking for a group - have the opportunity to say "I heard" but instead say "we heard", that's not necessarily including the speaker. Godfrey was rather deaf anyway. He's not saying he heard it, he's saying members of the group heard it. Since the choice was his which word to use, it must be deliberate.
And as for Benteen and Weir, it does not make any difference where he was when he gave Weir the note, my question was, what did he expect Weir to do. The order was not to Weir it was to him. Did he think Weir would take off and head for Custer. I don't know what Benteen expected Weir to do, except offer his opinion on it. Weir did not, however, take off and go to Custer at that point. Weir was not first on Reno Hill. LATER, he went north. But in so doing, they were not under the impression Custer was in distress. Weir was worried about not being in on the kill. Benteen said that he thought the note made no sense - 'be quick and drag the anchor of the train' - and nobody is known to have disagreed with him. Experienced combat officers to this day disagree on what the note meant. Since it was less demanding than Kanipe's alleged message, it certainly connoted no fear. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2007 : 1:01:32 PM
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| The "plan" was to attack from different directions. All too true the plan was based on a number of unknowns and misconceptions and it was uncoordinated and initiated in haste. Given the the unknown terrain, the lack of knowledge of the exact size and shape of the village, etc --it was a BAD plan. Which are big reasons why it failed. But I still insist it was a "plan". Custer directed Benteen to do such and such, Reno to do such and such. It was more than just a free-for-all. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2007 : 6:45:27 PM
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Well I am sorry to say I beg to differ with you. The "American Hertitage
Dictionary. says the the word "We" is often used to refer to people in
general and to include the speaker as well". And Godfrey not only made the
statement once,but twice. Now as for Benteen, when he handed the note to
Weir, he claims he did not ask Weir any question, and Weir offered no advice.
If Benteen had said the note made no sense, it would have been a very stupid
statement to make. I give more credit to Benteen then that. He made a remark
like that, but, it had nothing to do with the order from Custer.Benteen says
that he was sent to the first valley, and if no Indians were found to go on
to the next valley. Those were Custer's exact orders. Benteen said, to him
it was a rather senseless order. According to him he never said anything to
Weir about the note given to him by Martin. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2007 : 9:25:23 PM
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| Sgt Windolf also said that they heard firing while at the morass. Sgt Ryan said that his detail was firing before Rebo dismounted and formed a skirmish line. Since people who were there said they heard firing, why disbelieve them? |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2007 : 11:36:07 PM
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Prolar, when I brought up the subject, that Godfrey Said while at the morass
they heard firing, in advance, Dark Cloud, claims, Godfrey may have said we
heard firing, but Godfrey didn't. I don't understand that one. Thank you for
the reply, I was not aware someone other then Godfrey heard the firing. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 25 2007 : 9:16:36 PM
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Several people said that firing was heard at the morass. But which of them says "I heard....." firing, though? For all we know, they're just repeating the accepted story three years later. Someone heard firing. Godfrey changed his story about the mutilations, don't forget.
I don't get the Ryan story point, assuming that Rebo is supposed to be Reno, as it has no relation to the morass.
I gave the example that negates the claim, Sgt. Major. People use 'we' when it doesn't apply to themselves, but just want their exact participation left vague. We Beat Hitler! Very of few of us even fought Hitler, and the Soviets, we know now, were the ones who faced 85% of his forces, the remaining 15% - and often a lot less - were fought by England and the USA. When shots were fired at Dallas at Kennded, people said "I heard....." and pointed from where. They were often wrong, but they were sure of it. I don't recall anyone saying "We heard shots..." if they themselves had heard them. That's the difference.
And again. What shots could be heard from the morass? Depending where Reno's line was, they were four, maybe six miles away from the morass, assuming the morass is where it's currently thought to be. And it's highly deflective ground. Shots could have been the odd Indian on the East bank riding north, might have been Reno. Even Custer. But you don't rush the watering when the mounts have had zero water for 18 hours on a hot day during which you expect to fight. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on September 25 2007 9:19:19 PM |
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heinkel12
Recruit
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - September 25 2007 : 11:03:02 PM
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| Benteen was complying with his orders. He was moving towards the action as the note from Custer had asked him to. How fast he should have gone is really open to conjecture and personal opinion. The note doesn't say, ' hey Benteen, we are on a hill x miles ahead of you surrounded by Indians and outnumbered 10 to 1, we could really do with your help!' I'm sure if the message had been as urgent as that he would have proceeded with much more haste. However he doesn't even know exactly where Custer is and can only advance in the general direction of Custer's force. He may even have assumed that Custer was waiting for him. Second guessing men in such a situation I think is fraught with danger. No one knows what Benteen was thinking or what he thought was expected of him. What is known is that his actions went a long way in saving the 7th from total oblivion. I think we should give him some props for that. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 12:37:06 AM
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Well to me you are splitting hairs. And we are not talking about Hitler.
I am sure the man would not say he heard firing if he didn't. And if no
shots were heard by anyone why would they say so in the first place. And
as I have stated he he mentions of hearing firing twice. No matter what
firing was or where it came from, it was heard, now you can split all the
hairs you want,but you can not changes the facts, Godfrey was there you
were not. And I do not believe he would have said so or anybody else if
it was not so. Now you think what you want, but when Benteen pulled out
from the morass and did so at a walk. And as Gray says for nearly five and
half miles. And Benteen said himself, when Martin brought the order to him
he, Custer and his whole command was wiped out. If shots where heard then
it could only have come from the advance. And Benteen did nothing, not even
when he seen men fighting for their lives on the valley floor. But then
again it is as you say it is a soldiers duty to die, so be it, Benteen let
let them perform their duty. And the example you gave me does not work. If
you heard something then you heard it. When you say you heard something or
we heard something, that does not exclude me from hearing it. But as I say
you spit hairs anyway you want, until you can come up with some factual in-
formation that Godfrey didn't hear any firing, it will have to ride as is.
And as far as memory goes, you would have to look to the court of inguiry
and throw out everything that was testified to. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 06:39:13 AM
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Heinkel12:
Dosen't matter if the order sounded urgent or not--it said "Quick". And there was a courrier message immediately before that said "quickly". And the very original orders sending him off in the first place said something like if you find no Indians "hurry and rejoin the command". All of which suggest speed was of the essence.
You are right tho that how fast he moved vs how fast he could/should have moved is open to conjecture. And we're ALL second guessers!!! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2007 : 10:42:05 AM
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Not splitting hairs, Sgt. Major. How language is used and was used is important. Godfrey did not tell the truth about the mutilations out of etiquette, so why is it so unbelievable he'd fudge on what was heard when? He was described as rather deaf, so if his men said they heard firing, he'd forgivably say "we heard firing."
Further, you say the shots could only have come from what you call The Advance. Why couldn't it have come from the Sioux firing warning shots in the air and not in contact with the soldiers at all?
At the time he got the note, long after the morass, Benteen did not think Custer was dead. The note wasn't alarming and gave no indication Custer was in combat at all, which he was not when written. Later, he thought that at the time he got the note, Custer must have been dead.
So, Brent, read Custer on the very subject of cavalry speed, and how the Boy General laughs at the uninformed who think horses can run endlessly with no penalty. Further, he'd dumped the train on Benteen, which gave him two mutual exclusives: hurry and bring the train. Not, as you imply, alert the train to hurry, but bring it. Benteen came quick as prudence dictated. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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The missing officers--
