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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 17 2007 : 05:32:34 AM
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Any GOOD commander would certainly want to keep his fellow officers informed---. BY showing the note--or saying he got the note and telling the other officers what was in it
And SGTMajor "enters" the minds of those officers just like you--guesswork and your own predjudice. That's precisely why there are so many varied opinions on what Benteen (and Custer and Reno) did, didn't do, or should have done. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 17 2007 : 08:51:32 AM
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If Benteen showed them all that note they would have spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. Benteen's only obligation is to try and figure it out and then tell his subordinate officers what to do.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 17 2007 : 09:23:40 AM
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| I don't disagree, Brent, but that isn't what our supposed Sgt. Major claimed was Benteen's duty, which was to physically show the note to others. He's simply wrong, I have it on good and higher authority. I still have difficulty calling it an order. In either case, its emphasis is on the train by error or concern. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 17 2007 : 3:40:47 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Brent
Lt Gibson has it down pat what Benteen was REALLY supposed to do--Benteens entire command was sent to go "about 5 miles" just to see IF any Indians were escaping up the valley after which they were to HURRY and rejoin the command as soon as possible. Which suggests to me that Custer really didn't think that was a terribly likely scenario.
OF course he needed that information, but why send two troops of cavalry just to find out?? That "finding out" mission could have been accomplished by a few scouts, or even just the small patrol led by Gibson. Sending 100+ men who were sorely needed elsewhere was a BIG mistake.
And the rest is history---.
Brent, your post has touched upon two very important factors that I would like to discuss further. Firstly, I believe that you are absolutely correct regarding Gibson, his mission and, what Benteen's quest was actually about, no need for further elucidations here.
Secondly, your assertion that a couple of scouts could have ascertained this information as easily as the troopers is indisputable.
I would add to this discussion a probable rationale for Custer's actions in sending out the troops rather than using the scouts. Remember rationality does not nessecarily mean right as opposed to wrong; it's simply an explnation.
Even after receiving information from the Crow's Nest about the general location of the camp site, Custer still did not know the exact location. Further intelligence gathering was required. Also, his close call during the battle of the Wa****a was still in his mind. That village was spewed about for several miles (seven I think)up and down the river and, the same thing could be occurring at the Bighorn.
Custer's personal observation from Reno's Hill, for the first time, allowed him sufficient information to proceed with his plans. All though he did observe a huge village but, one that was (so he believed) manageable. Thus he issued notifications to rein in (or at least attempted to so)the other troops.
I believe that we must remember that Custer was,erroneously, convinced that the village would attempt to flee. That they would not stand. Actually, this concept was true for the most part just not in this case. In his mind, any potential Indian escapee's could be herded back with only two companies of soldiers.
We now know that two companies of soldiers had no more of a chance to turn back the escapees as a "couple" of scouts. I realize that my assertion that a commander of Custer's training and martial experience would jeopardize his entire command on such a faulty and unsubstantiated supposition (the Indians would undoubtedly flee unless surrounded) may seem silly. However, rightly or wrongly I believe that his massive ego and perception of aboriginals left him with no other choice; to charge!
Thanks for bringing up such thought provoking reads. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on October 17 2007 4:17:46 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 18 2007 : 05:35:22 AM
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Joe: I'm sure that in his own mind at the time, sending Benteen off was the right thing to do. Of course, he did it BEFORE he knew anything about the true size and shape of the village. And quickly realized that he needed those troops back quickly. Easier said than done, as it turned out.
The fleeing village scenario is no doubt what Custer expected--I almost get the impression that he expected NO fight at all--just the arrival of the 7th would scare the hell out of the Indians, and then just a simple round-up of women, kids, horses and possibly camp dogs. From a guy who knew what the Indians were capable of at the Wa****a, and what they did to Fetterman. Overconfidence, big time. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 18 2007 : 10:38:14 AM
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DC, Let me ask you a question, do you know for a fact that Custer did not
show his orders to anyone, do you have any kind of proof or written fact
that he didn't. Well for one I believe he did, he would not be Custer if
he didn't. Another point I want to make is that, I never said that Benteen
had go and show each officer the order given to him by Martin. And for your
information, in "Troopers With Custer", Benteen said hiself that Martin had
brought a written "order". I said why did he not inform his other officers
of his order. And why would they have to seat on their horses and figure
what to do. Seems rather simple, be Quick, bring Packs, what is there to
figure out. And also let me say this, is not everything that is said here
guess work and prejudice, which I may point out includes you. And let me
also say. to me there is no higher authority, then what is said by the man
himself. Benteen was given an order, that order was just not for him, but not
his command, and should have informed his officers of such order. What you
are saying is a commander does not have to explain his orders to anyone.
Well yes I guess you can say that, when you receive an order, and the man
who sent is already dead, so says Benteen, no need to hurry, no need to
inform anyone. And if Benteen, or Custer did not have to show orders to
anyone, then why did Benteen show his order to Weir. What was his reason
behind that. Well I guess what you say maybe true. As Reno proved you to
be almost right. He did not have to explain anything to commanders or his
men. Thats why he jumped on his horse, and ran leaving his command in the
woods, he did not have to inform any of his commanders as to what he was
going to do. Is that why he lost 40 men leaving many to be butchered by
the Indians. |
Sgtmajor |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 18 2007 : 3:29:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
As Reno proved you to
be almost right. He did not have to explain anything to commanders or his
men. Thats why he jumped on his horse, and ran leaving his command in the
woods, he did not have to inform any of his commanders as to what he was
going to do. Is that why he lost 40 men leaving many to be butchered by
the Indians.
Like you, I feel that Reno's "charge" was responsible for needless lost of life. I posted as much, sometime ago, and received a great deal of grief for it. I was accused of dragging the poor man's name in the mud simply because I stated my opinion. Reno's decision to leave the timber was not as damnable as his manner in which he departed.
Every word printed on this forum and, for that matter, any other site is based "upon guess work and prejudice". How could it be otherwise? Every "white" witness to the final moments died in battle and, Indian "testimony" is to often treated with contempt; even though their eye witnessed perspectives still exist.
The words written here are not literary works accompanied by reference footnotes to sustain an undeniable authenticity. They are merely opinions based upon readings and individual perspectives. If what you and I say is reasonable it is,therefore,possible. THIS IS WHY WE DO IT. keep up the great work. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on October 18 2007 3:31:39 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 18 2007 : 11:48:11 PM
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JW, let me say this, you have your opinions, stick by them no matter what
others say to cause you grief. They are reading the same books your read-
ing. They have no more information then you do. But there are those who
will try to make you seem like you are some kind of an idiot. Challenge
them, make them prove your are wrong. My opinions of Reno are far rangeing
and nobody out there has any facts that will change that, as I feel about
Benteen nobody has ant facts that will change that. Everything is open to
a fair discussion of what happened that day. Your opinions should not be
a case of causeing you grief. But their are those out there who will say
they are right and you are wrong.
When that happens you challenge, make them prove by facts that you are
wrong. Keep in mind one thing it was said that Benteen did not have to
show his order to anyone, but he did, Weir and Reno, a fact not just saying,
but a fact. Stick by your your guns don't ever back down, as I have said
they are reading the same books you are. They have no more facts then you.
Read all you can and read every book you can lay yours on about the LBH. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2007 : 05:51:35 AM
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I often think that folks who have strong opinions and who believe their's is the only correct opinion should put it all out in the open and publish their own book!! And look what happens--Gray is at first praised--then attacked. Mincho praised -then all sorts of "fault" found. Same with poor Fox. But at least they did the research, formed their opinions, and published the book.
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2007 : 11:35:53 AM
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Brent, you are correct, don't forget Fox was also in that mix.These men
did a great deal of research to find answers. Like us I do think they
are much like us, they are giving there best opinions and looking for
answers as well. However I am one that likes first person accounts and
I try to read everything I can about those who were there. Gray does
wonderful, but there are somethings I have found, that don't match up
with his movements from the divide to the LBH. And it all comes from men
who were there. Also doing an Aerial Analysis of that area. It takes a
lot of reading, and studying everything that was said by those there at
the time. |
Sgtmajor |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2007 : 9:35:09 PM
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JW, If you have the book "The Custer Myth" go to page 219, RH hand Col.
and read what Lt. Edgerly had to say about the valley action. Then if
you have the book "Troopers With Custer" go to page 79, last paragraph.
One of my reasons why I say don't rely on one source for information, and
to read all you can. But read them and give me your opinion. or anybody
else for that matter. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2007 : 10:07:03 PM
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Good source. Edgerly wasn't there any more than Godfrey was, and had to distract attention away from not rescuing the farrier when he could have, and blame it on the order of a then conveniently dead officer. Moving. Keep the focus on the valley fight he didn't participate in, and wrote what he chose to believe.
Edgerly naturally made General. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2007 : 11:45:06 PM
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DC, I was looking for something else when the statement cought my eye.
The first thing was him telling about the note sent to Capt Benteen. It
was all together different then the one we all know about. Then when I
read on he said, "within three miles of the village,we could see that
fighting was going on in the valley". Then he said we could see upwards of
100 men make for the bluffs. Now Capt Benteen said when he got to the place
that Reno crossed he saw an engagement going on 12 or 13 men in a skirmish
line. Now how did Edgerly see fighting going on three miles away. In this
case I would have to believe what Capt Benteen said and seen, then I would
Lt. Edgerly. To me it what be very hard to see what was going on 3 miles
away and who was doing what. That is why I was saying, you can't rely on
one source, or any two people who where there to tell the same story. |
Sgtmajor |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 20 2007 : 10:00:42 PM
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Upon receiving the message from Custer (according to Godfrey) and, spurred by the "sound of firing ahead," Benteen's column (Weir was a part of the column)picked up a fast pace. Eventually they came upon the point where Custer's trail separated from Reno ("Ford A"). Weir traveled left(Reno's path) and the other two companies went right(Custer's path.)
Lt. Gibson in an interview with Camp said the following, "Where Custer's trail parted from Reno's, Benteen said here we have the horns of a dilemma." Lt. Gibson then advised Benteen to take the right hand trail which was done.
In a letter to his wife, Benteen wrote, "When getting to the top of the hill (Reno) so that the valley could be seen, I saw an immense number of Indians on the plain, mounted and charging some dismounted men of Reno's."
Page 267 of Gray's 'Custer's Last Campaign' displays an informative map that illustrates the location of "Ford A" (where Reno crossed) which is a little over a mile from the bluffs leading to Reno Hill. Reno Hill is less than a 1/2 mile from "Retreat Ford." Although separated the three companies are in close proximity to each other.
As such, all three were afforded the opportunity to observe the same event. Edgerly's speaks truthfully when he states that his observations occurred while he was approximately three miles from the (southern) end of the village which was less than 1/2 mile from the retreat ford in the valley. His comments on page 219,initially, appear misleading but, clarification appears with further investigation of the terrain he is referring to.
In addition, as there was absolutely no rational cause for him to lie about the contents of the message which became a part of public record, it is my belief that he was paraphrasing the gist of the message. Of course I have no proof of this.
Sgt. T.W. Harrison of "D" company reports that his unit was in retreat when Vincent Charley was wounded. He was shot through the hips. The poor man tried to keep up with the retreating men by, "half crawling on his feet and one hand." Charley cried out that he was wounded and needed help. Edgerly stopped and told him to get into a ravine and he would try to come back and save him. "After going a piece they looked back and saw the Indians finishing up Charley." Harrison further states that perhaps 200 Indians were in the immediate neighborhood and advancing. Under such dire circumstances, the abandonment of Charley becomes a regrettable but, understandable decision; similar to the one Benteen made. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on October 20 2007 10:09:17 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 9:57:29 PM
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JW, Well for one I would have to disagree with Lt. Gibson. There is more then
then one part of Capt Benteens letter to his wife. Secondly what you say about
Godfrey is correct, and Lt. Edgerly was correct. Benteen and those officers
with him. And they all viewed the fighting going on from the area where Reno
crossed the LBH. Capt Benteen said, I saw the advance of Reno's battalion appear
on the bluffs, on the side of the river I was then on. I formed my battalion in
line, and moved up the bluffs.
Now Lt. Godfrey, said on the bluffs to our right we saw a body of troops and
they were engaged. But he also said there was engagement going on in the valley
as well, he then goes on to say that their was a time of uncertainy as to which
direction they should go. After Benteen talked to the Crow scouts he moved to
the right and joined Reno's battalion on the bluffs. And according to Godfrey
they had gotten directions from the Crow scouts as to what direction to take.
Either Gibson was confused as to what happened or his memory failed him. |
Sgtmajor |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 03 2007 : 5:22:25 PM
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In a post in Sept, I had stated that there were those in Benteens command
who had heard firing and hollering as they came out on to the trail, which
was also stated by them while they were several miles away. I belong to a
sportsmans club, and just before Thanksgiven we conducted a test. They range
we use for firing weapons and trap shooting is situated almost as the area
Custers troopes were in.
By using topo maps of our area and the area they were in we tried a firing
test. The lay out was almost the same open areas and some low ridges. We
used cell phones to talk to each other. We had 26 men firing 30-30 rifles.
at 6 and half miles we could hear nothing. No firing or hollering. At 5
miles we could hear very little if anything. At 3 and half miles we could
hear muffled sounds of firing. At a mile and a half the firing could be
heard, but no hollering. At one mile they fired 45, 9mm, and 357 mag pistols
which we could hear. Now either these men didn't hear anything or they
may have come out onto the trail much closer then where Gray shows them
coming out on to the trail. But I don't believe they could hear anything
several miles away. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 3:48:40 PM
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Sgtmajor,
The actions of you and your friends are commendable in that many annoying conjectures and "what ifs" fall to the wayside when actual facts are proven. I did a little research in hopes of determining Benteen's actual location on Custer's trail when he may have heard the weapon's fire. When he came across the "Lone Tepee" he dismounted to inspect the lodge which was located about a mile west of the morass. Leaving that point, he traveled a few hundred yards further when gunfire was heard. (according to Dononvan,P 256)
Trooper William Morris wrote that a member of Benteen's company (Miller) told him, while they were recovering in a hospital bed after the battle, that they heard "heavy firing while watering their horses." [Nicholas, Reno Court of Inquiry, 392] Benteen, however, makes no corroborating report of firing heard.
A short time later (1 and 1/4 mile from the morass) Benteen meets Kanipe. A mile or so after encountering Kanipe Martin arrives. Benteen asked Martin for Custer's location. He replied, "About three miles from here."
Godfrey states: "I heard firing. It was in the direction generally towards our front as we were marching: at first I only heard a few shots-then I heard quite heavy firing. We were close to the Little Big Horn when I heard it." (Graham Reno Inquiry,p176.)
At the point where the trail divided, Weir to the left and Benteen to the right, is approximately two miles from the valley bottom. I would guess that the sounds of firing were weree alleged to have been heard occurred between 3 to 2 miles from the bottom.
I think the men made as accurate a guess as possible under the circumstances of their testimony which was affected by a truism I adhere to. Memory is not a recollection of past events as they truly occurred but, a recall of perspectives heavely influenced by the individualistic needs/mental state of the recaller.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on May 08 2008 3:54:55 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2008 : 4:47:42 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I'm not a soldier. That officers here and on other boards and elsewhere disagree removes the surety you imply. Benteen thought it nonsensical, he showed it around, nobody said else. Hurry and drag the anchor.
The note says be quick about bringing the train, not the ammo. The pack train, mentioned twice, is the item of concern. Losing the train before such a large village would be the death knell. It had all the spare ammo, yes, but Custer's guns, we're sometimes told, used different ammo than the men's weapons. He couldn't share.
Joe Wiggs
Benteen probably processed several thoughts when he received the note, however,the note being "nonsensical" was not one of them. The command to "Come" and "Be Quick" was clear enough, the confusion developed upon deciding how to complete the order. The pack train was several miles arrear, to go back and retrieve them would,in Benteen's mind,result in his being even more delayed. The confusion was further flamed by the inadvertent omission of the word "ammunition" from the word pack. Custer needed the ammo quickly and the note inferred that Benteen separate the ammo mules, if need be, and hurry up.
How do we know this? Just prior to dispatching Martin with the famous note, to "come on" and "Be Quick", Sgt. Kanipe was sent out with a similar order. " to the pack train straight across to the high ground-if packs get loose don't stop to fix them, cut them off. come quick. Big Indian camp."
Now Dark Cloud, under these circumstance which packs do you think needed to be "cut off" and left behind? The ones containing ammunition on the one containing pajamas?.
Losing oats, clothing, bacon, and tins of fruit would not have meant the "death Knell." All of the ammunition carried in the packs were rounds that perfectly matched the issued rifles and side arms the troopers were carrying. It is true that some of the men carried special arms that require special ammo.
Dark Cloud
Custer's opinion of Benteen was high, as he said in a letter to his wife. Benteen, and any officer, would love to save Custer. That had all the props and none of the downsides for letting him be wiped out. Of course, they could not be sure he'd be wiped out, so they risked much in letting that happen. If anyone seriously thought Benteen and Reno had deliberately let 210 of their buds die, they'd have been shot on Reno Hill. There's zippo evidence for it, and it remains a crappy thing to say about a combat vet.
Joe Wiggs
I agree one hundred per cent. Neither man did anything deliberately to save Custer, nor did they do anything deliberately to save him. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on June 07 2008 5:04:55 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2008 : 7:48:56 PM
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| P.S. The last paragraph should read, "Neither man did anything deliberately to KILL Custer, nor did they do anything deliberately to save him." |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 08 2008 : 12:40:34 PM
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| I agree. Both Reno and Benteen would gladly have saved Custer had they not already been mentally beaten at Reno Hill. And their men as well. Further offensive operations from that combined duo were out of the question almost as soon as Benteen met Reno and saw what the Indians had already done to him. Neither commander (and again, most of the men) probably wanted anything beyond staying put. Helping Custer would have meant offensive action and taking risks none of them were prepared to take. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 09 2008 : 09:18:27 AM
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I think Benteen thought he was in a Cluster ---- Marine Corps term
This was the largest village he had seen, Indians willing to fight, Reno retreating, and Custer off somewhere with Indians in between or at least capable of being in between. He estimated around 800 -900.
If this is not enough to change original plans/orders and put Benteen under Reno's command then under what conditions would it be any better.I can't find saving the commander as a tactic in any military manual. Maybe someone can point that out to me. If saving in general was done by common practice someone should have that Reno would need saving.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 11 2008 : 10:52:33 AM
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| What's that saying--"Discretion is the better part of valor". |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 11 2008 : 9:52:51 PM
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| Hi AZ, Good to hear from you again. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 11 2008 : 10:05:25 PM
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AZ, with utmost respect for your combat experience, it seems to me that Benteen had not seen the size of the village when he joined Reno.
He had seen the estimated 800-900 warriors who defeated Reno.If as you say there was no requirement to rescue his commander, was there not an obligation to support the third of his regiment that he knew to be in combat with the other two thirds? While his eventual decesion may have been correct, when it was too late to help Custer, should he have not made some move before being forced by Weir's action? |
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The missing officers--
