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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 12 2007 : 08:33:28 AM
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Benteens actual responsibility was do do what the commander had told him --three times-- to do. Get back quickly!! Once in the original orders ("HURRY back to the command") Again from Kanipe ("Come quick") and yet again in the note "Be quick".
I think Benteen was in a grand funk--displeased with his assignment, feeling the whole plan was bogus (which of course it was) and with no real desire to buy into the whole thing.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2007 : 2:41:51 PM
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Lots of people try to excuse the uninformative note, you're not alone. You're suggesting that the four separate commands become five, and this in the face of an enemy. It's to be doubted that Custer would want ammo packs with his horse and own ammo at risk with the rest of the train anyway. In any event, he didn't say 'ammo' he said 'packs'.
This was the first pack train in the department ever, and it was a horror show and viewed as punishment detail. Conversely, Crook spent a lot of time on his packs, and they generally travelled with their companies, which makes much sense but took practice. Crook's mules could carry 100 lb's more than others, because they were studiously packed. In any event, if you look at a topo map, the train took the fastest way. Those mules probably, and the packs certainly, would not have made it going against the land's grain. Longer, but quicker. And nobody knew where Custer was then, anyway.
Their mission never changed, just what was available to them to accomplish it. This is what happens with word misuse. If a mission is to put the Sioux behind the gate in a theater the size of France, it is self defeating to refer to every small task in support of the mission as a mission as well. The 7th was never relieved of its initial mission. It never became, nor should it have become, put at risk and morphed into Saving General Custer.
Custer himself explains, in a piece covering the Yellowstone summer, that hurrying and hurrying with cavalry have different realities. It means getting to the desired place able to fight as cavalry, not collapse. Benteen DID hurry. He could not pass up the opportunity to water his horses for the first time in 18 hours. After watering, do you want to gallop right off? In any case, all previous orders were subsumed by the note which arrived later. He's now responsible for the train. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on September 12 2007 2:42:54 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 13 2007 : 05:34:38 AM
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| The pack train had it's own escort. But there really wasn't an enemy anywhere near it..no immediate threat of any sort. Now you don't go off and leave it sitting where it was and you need to bring it to where the main action seems to be. Custer clearly wanted it brought along. And it does have it's own speed limitations. But Benteen need not have slowed his own pace just to stay with the train. (especially with the "hurry and quick" messages). Could he not have headed it in the right direction, then head for Custer himself, indicating the train is on it's way?? |
Edited by - Brent on September 13 2007 05:44:45 AM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 13 2007 : 09:58:32 AM
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| Utley says that when Benteen returned to the main trail he was about half an hour behind Custer and Reno.When he neared the mouth of Reno Creek, he was an hour and twenty minutes behind. That is based on Gray's timeline, which DC has allways acknowledged as the best we have. Benteen covered this distance at little more than pack train pace.He claimed no responsibility for the train until he received the "bring packs" order. In fact, he told Kanipe that his message was intended for McDougall, not him. Watering has nothing to do with it. Benteen was leaving the the morass as the train arrived. Even if the train took no longer to water than Benteen did, he had a twenty minute headstart. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 13 2007 : 11:16:02 AM
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1."The pack train had it's own escort. But there really wasn't an enemy anywhere near it..no immediate threat of any sort." That wasn't known at the time. Knowing it a big village, you could rightly assumed large hunting/raiding parties would be going and coming and could fall on it, more likely closer to the village.
2."Now you don't go off and leave it sitting where it was and you need to bring it to where the main action seems to be. Custer clearly wanted it brought along. And it does have it's own speed limitations. But Benteen need not have slowed his own pace just to stay with the train. (especially with the "hurry and quick" messages). Could he not have headed it in the right direction, then head for Custer himself, indicating the train is on it's way??" Benteen did not go off and leave it sitting where it was. Kanipe had given the message to MacDougall to hurry it up. They could follow the trail easy enough. Benteen WAS hurrying for cavalry. They HAD to water. Benteen did not get the note till an hour after watering at the morass. Two companies worth of men was insufficient to protect the train so near the village.
Benteen, by Godfrey's testimony, had just traversed far harder ground than Reno and Custer. Benteen had no responsibility for the train till the note, true. He traveled at what he felt was an appropriate pace. Watering has everything to do with it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 15 2007 : 11:04:25 PM
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It would be interesting in this discussion to know where Custer was when
Benteen was given the note "Be Quick, "Bring Packs". At the time that he
was given the note by "Martin" he was over six miles away. and the packs
were some miles behind him. At the time Reno, was engaged in the valley
fight, and shots were being fired in Medicine Tail Coulee. As for Benteen
he was stuck between a rock and a hard spot. I am no defender of Benteen,
but if he had moved faster,it would not have made any difference. Custer
did not sit and wait for any support to come up. He kept moving northward,
away from any support. Letting the indians get between him and any support
from Reno or Benteen. I don't think any officer no matter who he was,could
have supported Custer and his command. As for Col Sturgis,one can only make
a guess. I am sure he would have be cautious and kept his command in tact |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 16 2007 : 09:38:48 AM
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Good points. Could be that if Benteen had really hurried, he may have arrived BEFORE Reno was driven from the Village (and in trouble), and instead of stopping to help Reno, he may have just went on to find Custer. And then what????
I think you're right about Sturgis. In fact, I doubt many commanders would have split their command three ways faced with a similar situation. |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 16 2007 : 11:06:29 PM
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True many commanders wouldn't have attack. Until they had seen what they are facing.They would have listen to there scouts.
Beside getting your family out of harm's way. Is just as a victory. Then killing all the enemy troops that came to attack you.
If the Indians had attack Custer. Before he had divided his Reg. It most likely he would have lost. But wouldn't had lost his life. Plus he wouldn't have gotten in trouble. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 17 2007 : 11:14:19 AM
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I do feel that Col Sturgis would have relied on is scouts more then Custer
did. And I am sure he would have used them more efectively. One of Custer's
problems was, he was over confident, his belief was the 7th could whip any-
thing they came up against. As we all know that did not happen. The one big
thing Custer could have done, was to support Reno's attack. My feeling is if
he had sent Reno with his three companies, and then followed up with his five
he would have caused great confustion and would have kept the indians from get
ting organized. He then could have brought Benteen up to protect his right
flank keeping any indians at bay that may have crossed river to get in his rear.
Don't forget when Custer headed down river he gave the indians time to get them-
selves organinzed, once they did that he was out generaled and out fought. And
he did have the element of surprise. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 17 2007 : 2:07:55 PM
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| Didn't the scouts urge Custer to attack at once instead of waiting until next morning? What advice did he not listen to? I don't know much about Sturgis, but he was soundly defeated by Forrest with a smaller force during the CW. And according to Benteen Sturgis did not perform well against the Nez Perce. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 17 2007 : 4:13:13 PM
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From what I have read and studied, the only scout's that told Custer he
should attack now instead of waiting until the 26th, was the Crow scouts.
The reason for this was because they had seen some Sioux in the vicinty
and had detected the regiment. If this had been the case, then they would
have given the alarm,and I am sure the indians would have came out in force
to battle Custer as they did Crook on the Rosebud. As for Col Sturgis I do
not know a great deal about his war records. But, let me say this, I do not
know of many commanders who fought in the CW or fought against the Indians
who were very successful. Custer chased indians all over the plains and never
did bring them to bay. The only thing he really accomplished when it came to
fighting indians was to attack a poorly armed camp in the dead of winter. As
for the Nez Perce, it would have been very hard for any Army commander to have
captured them. The only thing that brought the Sioux and other indian tribes
to their knees was the LBH battle. They put more army commands into the fight
to either capture or destroy those tribes.The differnece between Custer and
Sturgis was. One was young, colorful, and gallant, who did not want to fail,
but did. While the other was older,wiser, and had nothing to prove. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 10:53:11 AM
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Hi Sgt/Major, I'm not sure what advice from scouts other than the Crows, you are referring to.
I think there were any number of CW commanders considered successful, Custer among them. Of course there were fewer successful Indian war commanders but there were several. Custer's record against Indians wasn't great, but he had some success.
I would think Sturgis had a great deal to prove, since his last combat command resulted in a rout, and he hadn't been given another chance. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 1:04:32 PM
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Prolar, first, let me say this. There is no getting away from the fact that
Custer was a great cavalry commander during the CW. And yes there were others,
but none of this took place till after the Brandy Station Battle. And for the
most part until the middle of 1863.By the way I would like to say that Benteen
was one of those officers. Now as for the Crow scouts. When Lt Varnum was sent
to the Crow's Nest, he had with him Mitch Boyer and four or five Crow scouts,
Charlie Reynolds, with six Ree scouts. While up on the Crow's Nest they spotted
some Sioux indians and said, they most likely spotted the soldier camp. When he
Custer was up on the Crow's Nest, the scouts broke the news to him of seeing the
Sioux. White-Man-Runs-Him a Crow scout told Custer that he should stay here all
day and make a night attack. Red Star tells of a hot argument that took place
between Custer and the Crow scout Half-Yellow-Face. Custer told the scout very
angrily.That they had not been seen, and he was going to carry out what he thinks.
the scout told him it was a bad plan, and that it should not be carried out. He
Custer had made up his mind and thats it. But still he was angry over the thought
that they had been discoverd. Of course the rest is history, for when he got back
to the command he found it had moved and was one mile short of the divide. He was
then informed by his brother Tom that the regiment had been discovered. He then
changed his plans and moved the regiment to attack the village. |
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scalped
Recruit
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 3:06:57 PM
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| I have read down through the various arguements. To be blunt, Benteen could not have saved Custer, yes the note implies some urgency but not the type of WE CANT THEM NAPPING BOYS urgency. Custer thought he had everything under control and that by the time Benteen arrived, it would be all done and dusted. Benteen was an officer and they have to make tough decisions. He can see that Reno's command is in a bad way and needs support. He cant just say "Sorry Bud" but custer calls, he has to react and that is to support Reno, fair play, this action probably saved what was left of the 7th. If he had like a good loyal "stupid" officer decided OK lets ignore Reno and go to custers aid, what would have happened, the 7th would have been entirely wiped out |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 5:11:04 PM
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Scalped, I think that I had very plainly pointed out that it would have been
a very hard task for Benteen to get to Custer. Mainly that he had cut himself
off from any kind of support reaching him, no matter who the officer was. Now
as to his note to Benteen, I think the "Be Quick" does have some urgency to it.
Now Custer could have said rapidly, or swiftly, meaning the same thing. Now let
me point out a few things here. Now Lt Godfrey, one of Benteens officers said,
and I "quote. While watering, we heard some firing in advance, Weir became very
impatient at the delay in watering and started off with his troop, taking the
advance. The rest of the battalion moved out soon afterward and caught up with
him.end of quote" Now according to Godfrey this is not the first time they heard
firing. It would appear to me that the commander,Benteen would moved his force
out in the direction of that firing instead of a young Lt. He leaves the watering
at 2:03, walks to the lone tepee, it is now 3:13. At 3:10 Reno was engaged, and
at 3:20 he was in the timber. If Benteen had moved out at a rapid pace when the
firing was heard, he may have been able to support Reno. Benteen said himself
that he arrived to see an engagement going, and men in a skirmish line. If he had
arrived 20 minutes earlier, and moved out when the firing was heard, it may have
made difference in Reno's attack. And who knows maybe in some small way it may
have helped Custer as well. It really don't maker any differnce who was right or
wrong and all the if's, won't ever change June 25,1876. And let us never forget
those soldiers who gave their lives that terrible day.
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 5:13:27 PM
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Sgt/Major, I agree that Benteen had a good CW career.I think the Crow scout that argued with Custer was White Man Runs Him. Red Star calls him Big Belly. It doesn't really matter. Custer had good reason to think the regiment had been discovered. It had been,but no one got back to inform the village.
I agree that by the time Benteen got the "Be quick" message, it was too late to help Custer. My point is that Benteen moved very slowly from the morass to the flat.You say that the pack train was several miles behind when Benteen got the message. Both Kanipe and Martin said that it was close behind. As Brent said, if Benteen had moved faster, he might have been past Reno Hill before Reno retreated. Even if Bentten had joined Custer, they might have been defeated,but it would have been a different battle.
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 5:25:12 PM
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| Sgt/Major, sorry, I hadn't seen your last post when I replied. If Benteen had been earlier and followed Custer's trail, he might have been on the bluffs while Reno was still fighting.I think it more likely that he would have gone on to Custer.Boston Custer got through to Custer, I realize that Benteen couldn't be expected to travel as fast as Boston, but he could have moved faster than he did. |
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scalped
Recruit
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 5:38:38 PM
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| sgt/major109th:- That the soldiers gave their lives is not in question. The point is that Custer and Custer alone takes sole responsibility for the loss of life. True, after a battle , it is easy to point the finger of blame, hindsight is a wonderful thing, thats the beauty of it. My point of view is just that how quickly Benteen moved his column that day is not relevant, I personally think he went as fast as the circumstances allowed. True, Weir and Godfrey after the battle , probably thought , yes Benteen was dragging his feet, he could have gone quicker but could he??? When Weir tried to go to towards the firing, how far did he get? You have to be prudent in battle, this Benteen was, Custer on the other hand as we know was not. How did the day end? I often wonder if Benteen had command that day, would the little big horn even be up for discussion |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 5:42:04 PM
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Benteen was actually following Custer order. He was heading toward fighting. Even though, he may or may not was going right to Custer.
Didn't Benteen ask Reno where is Custer? After Reno said. For god sake Benteen. Please stop and help me out. I had lost a third of my command and I have men missing. Something like that, if I have that correct.
Beside They didn't even know Custer and the 5 companies that was with him were all kill. Until they ask Terry men where was Custer and was told what had happen.
They all thought that Custer had retreated to the north. To get some reinforcement. That probably why they went back to Reno hill to wait for Custer return. After they thought they saw the Indians chasing someone toward the north. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 6:57:17 PM
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I guess for some reason or other, my point is not getting across, I have said
when replying to the post where was Custer at the time Benteen was given his
note. And the point was where was the pack train. Benteen or an other officer
no matter who he was would not have reach Custer. I stated that Custer was
moving way from his support toward the north. By doing this he left avenues of
approach open to the Indians, which would cut off and attack any support coming
to Custer's aid. Benteen was several miles away which I also stated. And I never
made the lost of life a question. I also said that I am not a great defender of
Benteen and never will be. Now as far as him being in command of the 7th, most
likely for the same reason he wasn't after the battle. I never said he dragged
his feet or did anything that kept from doing his duty. I plainly stated that
he could not have made it through to Custer. And in my opinion by saying that
I think I have given him credit for the task he had to contend with. |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 7:40:51 PM
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Do you think that Custer knew that Reno will retreat? But did he knew? I myself think that he didn't know. But he might have had Keogh hold a opening for Benteen and the pack train.
But it would have to be a area to keep the Indians off his back. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 9:05:12 PM
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Kennethmd, I don't think that Custer had any thought that Reno would retreat.
it was stated that Reno did send messages to Custer,by two soldiers, telling
Custer he had a great many indians in his front. Now as for Capt Keogh, you have
to remember where these companies where on the field at the time. If Keogh was
on Calhoun Ridge,then the Indians would have been between him and Benteen. I
do believe that Keogh may have been on Nye Cartwright Ridge, and then drove
back to Calhoun Ridge. Custer may have known what was happening on Reno's
front, but had commited himself to a point where he could not get back. We
know what the scout Curley said about this. He said Yates and his company had
started on foot over the ridge from the river. The Indians were gathering in
great numbers and closing on Custer's flank and rear. Custer was isolated and
and the Indians were not going to let anybody come to his aid. And we know that
Benteen and Reno tried, but,they were drove back.
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 10:36:35 PM
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Do you believe Curly early report of the battle or his latter report?
In his latter statement. He said that gray horse troop went down M.T.C toward the river. While there he said that Custer wrote a note and gave to a young trooper riding a sorrel roan horse. Who then left.
Then he said that Boyer call him over. Then he told him to leave. To go to a high hill and watch the battle. He then said if the Indians are besting them. Then go to Terry and tell him that Custer and all that is with him were all kill. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 11:36:48 PM
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Well all I can say it is pretty hard to read any of it and find it to be
fact. In the same story he tells of Bouyer, he also states that Custer
crossed Medicine Tail Coulee, going on the hills north of the creek, which
I would think he is talking about Nye Cartwright Ridge. He said Custer had
halted, wrote a message and handed it to a young man,on a sorrel roan horse
and rode away. It was at this time that Bouyer called him. Well first off
you know that the message Custer sent back was by Martin, and that was at
or near Weir Point. According to Martin, Custer was moving down towards the
creek when he left. There is not alot in his stories that I put much stock
in, most likely seen things you could believe, but some you would have to
think about. But, is it possible that Custer sent more then one written
message back, but never got through. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 19 2007 : 4:43:20 PM
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Let me point out a few things here I feel is important in this discussion
about Benteen. First when Brent said he was upset over his assignment I feel
he was right. As a commander of a battalion,I think he showed a great lack of
responsibility, not only to his commander, but his regiment and the men who
served in it. Benteen did not work for himself, he was an officer in the US
Army. At the Reno Court of Inquiry he stated that when the order was brought
by Martin to him that General Custer and his men were already dead. As for
Reno and his men fighting the valley, and he had seen men fighting their
lives, all he could say was, it would not have made a particle as far as Custer
was concerned, but what about the poor soldiers fighting for their lives. By
the same token Reno stated that he did not think Custer with 225 men needed
anyone quickly. How can any officer,or called himself officer that was several
miles away from any kind of action,can disregard an order because he the though
everyone was dead anyway. And how can an officer with the rank of a Major have
utter disregard for his command,jump a on horse and take off leaving his men to
the fate of the Indians. And on top of all of that Capt McDougall claimed at the
Court of Inquiry, that he got no notification to hurry up the packs. He said that
Lt Mathey got the order. Mathey said he recieved no orders from Custer, Reno, or
Benteen. Only Capt McDougall, no Sgt reported to him orders. But yet Benteen who
recieved an order, did not take the responsibility, to ride back to make sure the
pack train was moving up. It was not till he reached Reno did he then send back
for the pack train. I have no doubt, Custer did things to cause the fate of him-
self and his men. But I also think he had help from officers who did not act with
poor responsibility |
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The missing officers--
