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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 07 2007 : 11:46:05 AM
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"Among them 2 Majors and 4 Captains" (as I read in Connell) who had been temporarily reassigned from the 7th for other duty. Custer apparently wanted them back before the LBH campaign, but was turned down by the War Department. Do we know who these men were? And perhaps more important--would they have REPLACED a certain pair of officers when independent commands were assigned that day?
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Edited by - Brent on September 07 2007 11:47:10 AM
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 07 2007 : 9:03:58 PM
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Brent,
It is past my bedtime and,unfortunately, I am not capable of remembering the identities of the officers you have referred to. I do, however, remember reading an article concerning this subject. Tomorrow I will find this information and report back to you. What a great question!!! |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 07 2007 : 11:21:37 PM
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1St. Lt. James Montgomery Bell D troop
1st. Lt. Charles Branden L troop
1St. Lt. William Thomes CrayCroft B troop
2nd. Lt. Edwin Philp Eckerson L troop
2nd. Lt. Ernest Albert Garlington H troop
Capt. Owen Hale K troop
Captain Charles Stillman Ilsley E troop
1st. Lt. Henry Jackson F troop
2nd.Lt. Charles William Larned
Major Lewis Merrill staff
2nd Lt. Andrew Humes Nave I troop
1st. Lt.Henry James Nowland qaurter master
Capt. Michael Vincent Sheridan L troop
Col. Samuel Davis Sturgis Regt. commander
Major Joseph Greene Tilford staff
Capt. John Eaton Tourtellotte G troop
Those are the missing officers of the 7th calvary during the time of Custer. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2007 : 07:21:06 AM
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Thanks for that list! Now--I'm wondering if ANY of these men would have been likely to have replaced Reno or Benteen had Custer the opportunity to do so? Probably not any of the Lts, but others? Looks like the majors were staff officers, but the Captains look like troop commanders. And the Col. appears to be a combat commander also(??)
Note: I'm just throwing out some thoughts here--we'll never know of course if any of these men would have made any difference to the final outcome. But perhaps in how the battle was fought?? We do know that Custer wanted them--.
Would also be interested to know if any of them were interviewed after the battle? Just to see what they thought of the whole thing tactics-wise. |
Edited by - Brent on September 08 2007 07:25:49 AM |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2007 : 2:31:56 PM
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| I really don't know if there would been any different. But if Col. Sturgis had been at the battle. It would had been different. Maybe it would had been a 7th. calvary victory.Then on the other hand. It made up ended being Sturgis last stand. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 07:11:48 AM
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Would Sturgis have been in command? I believe I read somewhere that would have been the case(?)
I was just speculating too that if one of the other Captains had been in Benteens place, they may have strictly obeyed the "Come Quick" order and gone straight (and quick!) to Custer, by-passing Reno? Or maybe still uniting with Reno and seeing the village empty with the Indians all going after Custer, maybe tried a "re-charge", if not actually trying (ala Weir) to reach Custer directly.
You know what I mean- For Gods' sake, do SOMETHING!! |
Edited by - Brent on September 09 2007 07:14:42 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 08:07:30 AM
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First off, the note says "Be Quick", not "come quick." It does not say come to Custer, anyway. There is no agreement among actual military men that Benteen was ordered to Custer or, for that matter, what the note means.
It's fun to play with "maybe's" and what if's, but it's not particularly fair - or accurate - to keep implying Benteen didn't obey the note. He clearly did. The train is referenced twice, which probably suggests the main concern of the piece. He could do nothing without being able to guarantee the train. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 12:22:49 PM
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Of course, in any discussion of Benteen, I always consider that Benteen was sent away by Custer--he didn't simply wander off on his own. Bad move by Custer. But regardless what some military men may think, had I been Benteen, that note was from Custer to me and it clearly meant come TO me--Custer, the guy who wrote the note. It wasn't a suggestion--it was an order. The wording can be quibbled with (and you are correct--it's BE quick), but it's clear what was meant. Be QUICK and bring the packs. It isn't as if this is an invitation to a Friday night repast at Ft. Lincoln--"Benteen. Big Fish Fry. Be on time. Bring chips. PS Bring Chips". It's a battlefield situation and it means that the subordinate should come to the officer in charge. Or try. Like the big plan or not, some attempt has to be made to make it work.
The wording could have been a thousand different ways--paragraphs in length. It was written in haste, but I can't believe Benteen didn't know what it meant. Of course, the order didn't convey any sense of danger or impending doom, nor did Martini's description of what was going on help matters.
And tho he did (eventually) come, I can't really say it was super-Quick--even given the speed of the packtrain. And when he got there (to Reno) he stopped and they all sat and waited. Even some Indian accounts suggest they were concerned that the Reno/Benteen group still posed some danger--but nothing ever happened.
But all that aside, I'm wondering if one of those different Captains might not have deduced right away that the grand scout was going to find nothing and himself dispatched a courrier TO Custer requesting permission to return at once to the main event. |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 12:31:25 PM
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It true Benteen was following Custer's order. But Custer didn't exactly order Benteen come directly to him.
When Benteen arrive on Reno hill. Reno ask Benteen to help him out. By saying. For god sakes Benteen. Please stop and help me out. Something like that. Witch he does. For one he had to wait for the back train. Two, he being a captain and Reno being a major and without a direct order from Custer. By saying, Benteen come directly to me as fast as possible and if possible, can you see if you can hurry up the pack train. I really need them. If not possible just get here. He had no choice but to do what Reno had ask him.
On the other hand Custer might had wanted Benteen with Reno. But he didn't send a order to Reno to renew the attack. But he might have tried by sending someone. But none of them couldn't get threw. |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 12:51:45 PM
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| Another captain might had come directly to Custer or he might had done as Benteen did. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 3:44:01 PM
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You imply any military officer would agree the note - it's not a formal order - meant come to Custer. They don't agree. It reads as if it means "Hey Guy! Big village, should be fun, hustle the train along to a place of accessibility and join in, chop-chop."
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on September 09 2007 3:54:56 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 05:43:09 AM
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Well-I was a military officer (only a First Lt.) but had I gotten that note (from let's say, my Company Commander), I would have clearly recognized it as an order. An order to come to the commander who wrote it. And an order that followed a verbal summons (to come quick)I had gotten not long before! It really dosen't matter WHAT the situation was assumed to be-miss out on all the fun, or save us from getting creamed. Custer wanted Benteen and he wanted the ammo in the packtrain. My own opinion is that Benteen wasn't too terribly interested in returning as quickly as he could. An opinion shared by many others, I might add.
Now- NOT going to Custer directly and stopping to aid Reno is a different matter entirely. That's a field military decision based on a known situation..unknown by the commander who wrote the "be quick" note, but known to the subordinate who was to follow the order. An order is to be followed if it can be--and Benteen COULD have simply by-passed Reno and followed the trail to Custer. He stopped for Reno ,of course, and I'm not faulting him for that. Reno and his command were in a state of disarry and shock, such that Benteen made the decision to help him rather than continue on to Custer. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 11:02:26 AM
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I'm not a soldier. That officers here and on other boards and elsewhere disagree removes the surety you imply. Benteen thought it nonsensical, he showed it around, nobody said else. Hurry and drag the anchor.
The note says be quick about bringing the train, not the ammo. The pack train, mentioned twice, is the item of concern. Losing the train before such a large village would be the death knell. It had all the spare ammo, yes, but Custer's guns, we're sometimes told, used different ammo than the men's weapons. He couldn't share. Further, the spare mounts; further the food and grain and medical items. It's mere supposition that Custer just wanted the ammo mules, which didn't have his ammo anyway. Another division in the face of the enemy would just be another military cliche violated by Custer in a short amount of time, not having ridden to the sound of firing himself, divided the command, committed part of it to charge something unknown, and having no clue where if he would be able to support the charge ordered.
Custer's opinion of Benteen was high, as he said in a letter to his wife. Benteen, and any officer, would love to save Custer. That had all the props and none of the downsides for letting him be wiped out. Of course, they could not be sure he'd be wiped out, so they risked much in letting that happen. If anyone seriously thought Benteen and Reno had deliberately let 210 of their buds die, they'd have been shot on Reno Hill. There's zippo evidence for it, and it remains a crappy thing to say about a combat vet. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 11:51:12 AM
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Well--a lot of people say it!! I won't suggest it was deliberate, but I will suggest that neither Reno nor Benteen seemed to be in any hurry to rejoin the fight. At least Reno had an excuse of being thoroughly whipped and demoralized, his men probably unfit for further offensive operations. They may have thought Custers remaining troops could handle business--or perhaps were just riding away to rejoin them some other time. If so, they were quite wrong. And what could be nonsensical about a battlefield note that followed closely upon a previous verbal message? And when the ORIGINAL orders to Benteen (according to Lt. Gibson) were to scout for about 5 miles and then HURRY to rejoin the command?
And I totally agree that Custer himself messed up in a big way. Benteen should never have been sent off in the first place. Reno should have never been promised support when Custer had no real idea if or when he could provide it. But that dosen't relieve subordinates from TRYING to do what the commander wants. When that Village "emptied" with the braves rushing to Custers location, Benteen and Reno did nothing. Only Weir thought that Custer might need help. Recall Lt. Jesse Lee's question to Moylan about if it were more honorable for a soldier to die fighting than to sit dishonored on a hill?? |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 12:47:57 PM
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| I think Mincho sums it up rather succinctly: "The soldier sortie to high ground later known as Weir Point was too little too late. They returned hesitant and confused back to the bluffs where they had idled away the past two hours of valuable time" |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 3:36:00 PM
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You're pretending the mission was Saving General Custer, or that it should always have been the priority of Reno and Benteen. The mission was to set the Sioux back on the reservation. Sacrificing the entire 7th to no known point was neither mission compatable nor appropriate. And in fact, both Reno and Benteen continued the fight for the next 24 hours.
Custer was heading away from the fight, and ended up furthest from the camp himself than all but a few of his soldiers.
Benteen did indeed not think the 7th was up to the job and said as much. It certainly wasn't.
"Hurry" would mean as fast as practical to arrive ready to fight. Oddly, it's only Custer's horses that gave out, remember. Custer himself wrote of this necessity and the ignorance of those who don't know horses when talking about 'hurrying.' Racing north into the unknown for Benteen would be against his orders, because he was responsible for the train's safety, which the note suggests was a priority. Plus, the situation had changed with Reno's defeated command begging for help, the exact sort of event to which field commanders were expected to react.
Neither Michno's time expenditure nor his tongue bathing of his hero is particularly convincing. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 4:49:54 PM
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What would you do, if you were either Custer, Reno and Benteen?
If I were Custer. I would had waited for Benteen to return from the reconnaissance mission that I have sent him on. I would have make sure the pack train was in a good defensible and accessible area. I would had the scouts keep a eye on the camp. To see if they either run or attack and to reported to me.
If I were Reno. I most likely would done the same thing by retreating. But not the way he had done. I would had regroup my troops and relaunch the attack on the enemy. If Benteen had arrive while I was regrouping my troops. I have join in with the attack on the village.
If I were Benteen I would had done the same thing he would had done. |
Edited by - kennethmd on September 10 2007 4:51:49 PM |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 12:30:05 AM
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| Now think what the other officers would had done if they were there. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 05:29:30 AM
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I can't see a Captain like--let's say--Keough--taking his time getting back. Or maybe even stopping for Reno.
DC: I guess Benteen made a choice to save himself and Reno. I can't fault him for that and you are correct that it was a battlefield decicion to make. But put yourself as Benteen--I'm Custer. You already suspect the attack plan is bogus and I've rejected your suggestion to keep the regiment together. I know you can't stand me. I then order you to scout about 5 miles and hurry to rejoin the command. I later send a courier telling you to come quick. I THEN follow that up with a note saying be quick. You haven't sent any messages directly to me. Now would you not think I was anxious to have you back??
I guess I can sum up my own feeling about Benteen by saying that he appeared to be somewhat nonchalant about what was going on. Derelict? No. But not praiseworthy in any sense.
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Edited by - Brent on September 11 2007 05:44:46 AM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 08:01:30 AM
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DC: Should add that I'm not a soldier either. Just happened to be the right age and in college during Vietnam. Two years and OUT.
The opinions of Military men can sometimes be interesting tho--wasn't it Nelson Miles who stated (in 1877) something like "The more I study the moves here on the Little Big Horn, the more admiration I have for Custer".
Oh well--- |
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kennethmd
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 12:18:26 PM
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| I thought of something. Members of the Custer's gang. If one of them was in charge of the column that Benteen was commanding. It most likely they would have gotten to Custer as quick as their horses could go. |
Edited by - kennethmd on September 11 2007 12:20:01 PM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 1:14:37 PM
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Brent, I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I think Custer's biggest mistake was underestimating the Indians determination and ability to fight.I think Benteen sulked and stalled and regreted it later.Reno probably did his best, which wasn't great. If Custer had kept the regiment together, he might have defeated the Indians, but couldn't have prevented an escape.
At best the entire 7th was a smaller force than Crook's and Crook didn't defeat a smaller force than Custer encountered. If Custer made such a huge mistake, wasn't Terry wrong to split his force? Hindsight is great, but they had to act on what they knew at the time. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 3:21:37 PM
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That is Miles' opinion. He was stroking Custer's memory for his own elevation.
There is no evidence Benteen sulked. None. Rather, he'd have LOVED to have saved Custer, which would have had all the upsides and none of the downsides (like being shot himself and by his own men) for deserting their fellows.
This is based upon the assumption that Weir was concerned with saving Custer from the morass on to explain his near mutiny. Weir had no reason to fear for Custer at that point, but wanted to be in on the kill for the write up. Confronted with reality later, he slunk back quick enough. Benteen lying down while horses watered was not a great photo op in retrospect, but there's no evidence he delayed beyond the needs of his horses and men. No water for sixteen hours and a harsh trail beyond that of Custer's. He arrived on the trot ready to charge or whatever was needed with the train - his responsibility and an ongoing Marx Bros. movie - under control and protection.
If an idiot officer instead of Benteen had raced to wherever Custer was, they'd have arrived strung out if at all, and the train would likely have been pillaged after Reno was clobbered and Custer surrounded, unable to go on the offensive with wounded and horseless any more than Reno was.
If he had not stopped for Reno, that WOULD have been an offense. Whatever Custer did, it was not logical nor consistent with either offense or defense, and this is why others have to be accused in order to deflect attention from the fact Custer did not attack across a reportedly thinly defended ford into the village, which he had tasked Reno with doing with less men an hour earlier.
Reflect: Bentenn's mission was not Saving General Custer, but getting the hostiles back under control. Because of Benteen's decision not to subject the 7th to pointless risk for unclear purpose against superior numbers (and motivations) the 7th was able to participate in the summer campaign and beyond, which pretty much destroyed the Sioux and Cheyenne as a threat. Not the way they planned it, but the Army did it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 7:59:33 PM
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DC, if Benteen wasn't sulking it must have been a rare day. Apparently from his own words, he resented everything Custer ever asked of him until his {Benteen's} dying day.
I don't know Weir's motivation any more than you do,but Godfrey said that some of the officers became impatient. Not just Weir.According to Gray, Benteen took much longer to cover the same distance as Custer and Reno.Their horses survived.
I agree that by the time Benteen joined Reno it was too late to do anything for Custer.However, the mission you keep refering to, was not to preserve the 7th for the summer campaign or to take and hold Reno HIll. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 9:49:21 PM
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Then you have no excuse for not presenting an example of Benteen resenting "everything Custer ever asked of him until his dying day." Custer seemed to admire Benteen in a letter to La Custer. Benteen didn't like Custer, but there is zippo evidence he deliberately withheld support. There is a great deal of reason to think that others would have shot him if so in such a closed society.
Absolutely every battle seems to produce untold guilt and remorse in everyone, especially by the officers in charge who lost. Friends are killed and there's plenty of reason to blame themselves in their minds. The LBH is no different. What's annoying is that these boilerplate reactions and syndromes are elevated into Byronic level guilt and announced as Fact. That's a mean spirited service to Benteen and Reno, who deserve far better.
Of course, we don't KNOW Weir's motivation. That's obvious for the same reasons can't know Benteen's either, but people don't hesitate to enter Benteen's mind to blame him.
Godfrey may be truthful about that observation, we don't know (he changed stories about mutilations, and he filled in his journal after the fact - perhaps long after the fact), but in any case it was Benteen's call as to pace. Benteen did NOT take much longer to cover the same amount of ground (and worse ground) as Reno and Custer did, and there's reason to believe Benteen covered more ground than Gray credits. We don't know. Not a few of Custer's horses by several accounts and illustrative examples gave out. Martin's was tired before he left with the message, the four iffy C troopers, Indian accounts of horses exhausted and munching grass in battle. Benteen arrived in prudent and expeditious time with men able to attack at need, and able to protect the train, which everyone ignores as his responsibility.
The mission of the 7th from Ft. Abraham Lincoln on was to put the Sioux back on the rez by hook or crook. At what precise juncture did that change, and other goals impose themselves over it?
A lot had apparently changed since the note was given to Martin. I'd hope the duty of every officer is not to risk a notable percentage of the entire Army on a fool's errand but rather to act responsibly on the evidence before it. It is not, alas, to ride blindly to the sound of firing without Clue One. At no point did Custer's imagined safety take precedent over the mission to Benteen any more than Reno's actual and seen need changed Custer's devotion to the mission (offering a kindness). Benteen is the only officer who sought recon and comprehension before engaging, for which he is damned.
If you cannot win, preserve unit intact for later, absent need. I doubt Custer, or whoever put his group on LSH, would disagree, since Custer didn't ride to firing either or do much if anything to support Reno as promised, and was seemingly destroyed running away from the village.
If he'd waited at Weir, I'd consider that evidence for waiting for Benteen. Otherwise, it is antithetical Custer. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2007 : 05:51:17 AM
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Just a new thought I had while reflecting on all this--the note mentions "bring packs"--not the pack train. Wonder if there were any "packs" on the train that might have been brought forward in advance of the entitre train?? Such as ammo?
I seem to recall that in many previous active military campaigns, the "pack train" (or supply column, whatever you want to call it) is important, but at some point during a battle it sort of "hunkers down", out of the way, and pretty much has to take care of itself with the troopps assigned to guard it. Lose the battle and the train gets plundered. But it isn't the be all and end all of the battle plan.
DC: I think Reno and Benteen both knew the 7th was in plenty of trouble--Reno almost right away, Benteen when he arrived to meet Reno. They certainly then must have realized that the grand Indian chase was no longer in the cards. The immediate mission for both of them changed right then and there. I'm not going to villify either of them, but I'm not heaping praise on either one of them. Over the years, it seems very few have. |
Edited by - Brent on September 12 2007 05:59:41 AM |
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The missing officers--
