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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 18 2005 : 08:32:40 AM
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Dc just got my book,after flicking through the pages got stuck on the photographs on page 139,what a contrast.
Looks very interesting and should provide a good thread. |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 09:09:38 AM
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| Good Idea. Also besides the new book, WCF, Gray, Fox, and the USGS maps, does anyone have other maps that might enter into this discussion that we need to obtain? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 12:48:25 PM
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If anyone posts photos (what are we allowed to do?) keep them as large as possible. I think people who haven't been to the field need to get a sense of Big Sky Montana and the surprise gullies. If Hunkpapa hasn't been to the field, I'm curious how the aerial and distance shots differed from his impressions gained from reading. I'd bet a bunch. I still need to recalibrate, and I've been a fair amount. The field always constricts in my memory. Always bigger than I recall.
Page 130, 137 give you basis for my (and others') cynicism, I think. Look at the paltry markers, move Custer and a few others to the monument area where most testimony says he should be, deduct 20% spurious, move others south like the photos show, then tell me the accepted story again using the remaining stones as evidence complete with the explanation for all the officers at LSH, who we now know comprised an even higher proportion of the bodies than the uncomfortable previous number. Same with 'south skirmish line', the Co. C horses surrounding Custer, the journey of Keogh's marker hundreds of feet (unnoticed for years), other wandering markers, and tell me how much money you're putting on the stones being more than a display, not a confession of truth.
Remember: skeletons - man and horse - were found on Luce and Nye/Cartwright as well, but unnmarked, probably for the same reason no markers made it to Reno: private property. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 1:34:37 PM
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| I have been there four times and plan on going in June 2006. After spending time reading this board I will have a whole different approach on how I will spend my time there. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 5:57:22 PM
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DC no I haven't been to Montana in fact I haven't set foot in the USA although I looked across the border a few times.
As I said the two photographs on page 139 show quite a contrast from then and now,the newer sprouting headstones from the sparse stakes in the older.The plates on pages 134/135 of the bones are interesting,to be honest even after 3 years when these where taken there isn't a lot there to justify this last stand theory and most probably,these have been collected from various parts of the field.
I will be giving the book a good read shortly. |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2005 : 3:25:29 PM
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Until my copy of WCF arrives I'm opperating in the dark here.Bye the bye H7 Montana is not in England.
Morrow who took the "unknown+boot" photo did so when he accompanied Col Sanderson to the field in 1877.Sanderson had been sent to the field to tidy up.He reported that he had gathered up all loose bones and placed them in a mass grave.A few months before this Col Sheridan and Capt Nowlan had exhumed the remains of the officers for reburial by their families.The bones of individual enlisted men were placed in piles and provided with some sort of surface burial.The appalling scandal is that the dead were left exposed to the elements and scavangers both animal and human until the arrival of Lt Roe in 1881 to erect the monument.It was he who gathered up all remains and placed them in a mass grave at the monument.
Just looking at Morrow's photograph one is struck by the total scattering of what appears to be horse bones.No nice compact skeletons?What also intrigues me is that with the exception of one marker none of the other markers in the photo seem to mark surface burials.Were the markers placed by Morrow for effect trying to indicate proper burials----spare the feelings of the folks back home.
So what had Sweet got to work on when he arrived 14 years later?There are no graves and no remains just perhaps a few scattered stakes.
Anyway have to wait for my copy of WCF
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2005 : 5:20:51 PM
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I find no source of Sanderson at the field till 1879, nor Morrow. Morrow didn't even get to Ft. Keogh till 78. Page 13, WCF. It is mentioned that Morrow's photos are often misdated, but neither he nor Sanderson were at the field before that date, according to this. What are your sources?
As I understand it, the first orders of Federal visitations were in 1877: Michael Sheridan to disinter the officers, Fouch a few weeks later, General Sheridan (Bourke wrote scathingly of being unable to walk far without stepping on human parts, feet still in boots, disgusting. The General was not pleased with bro.) Sanderson was 1879. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 23 2005 : 03:30:44 AM
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| Is there a day or a few posts missing off the board????? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 23 2005 : 07:27:44 AM
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| Wild There is two days,December 20,21,missing as far as I can tell. Also the new member from Ireland doesn't show up. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 23 2005 : 07:32:35 AM
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| I think DC didn't like the two to one odds. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 23 2005 : 11:33:06 AM
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Harump. When it's seventeen to one, it approaches parity.
Don't know what this will look like, but here are the missing posts. Or some.7
Lieutenant
1121_by_hunkpapa7
United Kingdom
Status: offline
Posted - Yesterday : 7:36:59 PM Show Profile Reply with Quote
Wild even with my eyesight I couldn't see England from Canada,I did think about crossing the border on several of my seven [7] visits but didn't like the look of the rusty Colt they were giving me.
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right !
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline
Posted - Today : 08:49:44 AM Show Profile Reply with Quote
The General was not pleased with bro.) Sanderson was 1879.No DC Sanderson was ordered to the field immedately after Col Sheridan and Nowlan had been there and seen the state of the place.As Gen Sheridan was due to visit the field Col Sheridan requested a detail from the 11th infantry who were engaged in building Fort Custer.Thus Capt Sanderson was despatched to the field to make it presentable for the General's inspection.The photographers Morrow and Huffman accompanied the detail.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline
Posted - Today : 09:33:52 AM Show Profile Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage Reply with Quote
Again, Wild, your source. Along with my previous citation, page 412, Gray.
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Edited by - Dark Cloud on Today 09:39:30 AM
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline
Posted - Today : 1:02:45 PM Show Profile Reply with Quote
Mr Fred Dustin's The Burial of the Dead.
Also Gen Sheridan's report to the Adjutant of the Army expressly states that he was satisfied with the work carried out and that the graves were neatly raised and all staked.Just look at the state of the field in Morrows photo.
All those "horse" bones in Morrow's photo were gathered up and placed in momument mound on the summit of LSH.
Edited by - wILD I on Today 1:09:10 PM
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline
Posted - Today : 1:33:29 PM Show Profile Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage Reply with Quote
Page, Wild. The page where Dustin says Nickerson went out between Fouche and General Sheridan.
Never mind, found it. It is The Custer Myth. If you read the page 370 area, you will find Dustin hypothesizing, trying to explain away the 1879 date. His suppositions were incorrect, as it turns out.
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Edited by - Dark Cloud on Today 1:47:13 PM
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline
Posted - Today : 4:23:36 PM Show Profile Reply with Quote
It is The Custer Myth. If you read the page 370 area, you will find Dustin hypothesizing, trying to explain away the 1879 date.Why would he do that ?There is no issue here.And he also places the two photographers on the field at the same time???
Morrow took photographs of the "monument" and the cross marking Crittenden's grave.These Dustin seems to suggest were erected by Sanderson meaning he was there before or at the same time as Morrow.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline
Posted - Today : 6:29:06 PM Show Profile Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage Reply with Quote
Apparently the new info is that Morrow was in Deadwood and didn't make it to the L Bighorn till 79. You'll note Dustin has couched his theories in spongy language: must have's, probablys. Not a big deal, he didn't have the info they do now. Morrow wasn't there in 77.
Also? When he left the fort he left his plates and another photographer put them out under his name for a while and the dates were mislabled. Neither Sanderson nor Morrow was there in 77, but maybe someone has better info than I have in WCF. In any case, Bourke has interesting stuff on it. Bourke is great to read.
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Edited by - Dark Cloud on Today 6:31:33 PM
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 23 2005 : 2:50:25 PM
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REgarding the 1891 United STates Geological Survey by R. B. Marshall, discussed earlier, info from page 84 WCF.
Done in 1891, it wasn't published till 1908, an odd distance of 17 years. Marshall placed the Butler marker between MTC and Deep Coulee. It was never there. Godfrey apparently copied this map in a Century Magazine article the next year, yet Godfrey himself brought Camp to a very different site years later where they were photographed putting in a wooden marker.
Disturbing is this sentence: "One might argue that Marshall and Godfrey had a common source....." But wasn't Marshall his own source? He has all those stones marked on the hill, and because of his employer we're to belive that they are accurately placed and he recorded them. But here's at least one case where he either made it up, was extremely careless, or Godfrey is a liar to no known end. Godfrey is, in any case, guilty of an incorrect map. Which is to say, eyewitness participants get confused, make errors, don't recognize it when they do.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Horse
Private
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2005 : 9:08:51 PM
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| Lets be honest, does it really matter where the headstones were placed, the markers are as close as we will ever get. As Benteen said, you could scatter a hand full of corn over the field, the battle field made that much sense to him. These men faced what we can only dream about, how would we have done it differently. Lets respect what they faced, what they died for, and not argue over how they fell, for no matter what you believe they fell bravely under a blue sky |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2005 : 02:27:22 AM
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Welcome back Dark Horse I think your oops disappeared when we lost two days of posts, except for what DC saved and restored.
quote:
Lets be honest, does it really matter where the headstones were placed, the markers are as close as we will ever get.
That is what this thread is about. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 27 2005 02:45:53 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2005 : 02:42:17 AM
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quote:
These men faced what we can only dream about
You have strange dreams. I've had some nightmares myself and I am sure there is others on the board that have faced extreme danger.
quote:
and not argue over how they fell
This is not about the way they died but where. It is to sort out the details that are important to each of us to form our own opinions. There are many great posters here and I enjoy them.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2005 : 09:56:29 AM
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| It matters in that notional decisions in the past, probably attempts to honor the dead by adhering to 'a greater truth,' are now claimed as precise fact and used to discredit some and over-honor others, a process often having less to do with a search for truth than petty and selfish emotional satisfactions for people today. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2005 : 1:36:59 PM
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Page 115 WCF Photo 13.1a shows a cavalry unit in line of march.I estimate that from the head of the column to where it changes direction there are approx 42 horsemen or near enough to troop strenght.They cover not an inconsiderable amount of ground.5 Times that number [Custer's 5 troops]could cover 7 to 8 hundred yards.
Now hit them suddently with at least 1500 indian warriors and what will happen? Those with time will dismount and form a skirmish line those hit first will try to gain time by running.Both these reactions are plainly demonstrated by the position of the markers.
As interesting if not more so are the contour maps of the battlefield.The contours show that LSH anchors a ridge running through the Keogh sector to Calhoun hill.It is possible that Custer in running for LSH was trying to form on the flank of Keogh and Calhoun .
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2005 : 1:26:44 PM
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I find the maps in WCF have no scale or North orientation.Not a great handicap to enjoying the book just a little disappointing.
I'm using "Little Big Horn Remembered" by Herman J Viola [sorry DC another great big picture book]in conjunction with WCF as it has a particularly good obliquely taken colour aerial photo of the entire battle field from Reno Hill to LSH. Using the contour maps in WCF I was able to indentify all the main features of the Battle field and it immediately became apparent to me firstly that to get to the area of LSH Custer had to go down or cross MTC and then travel up and climb out of Deep Coulee.Secondly the K/C sector although a good defensive position is outflanked by Deep Coulee.Indians pouring across MTC and up Deep Coulee can take the K/C position on the flank and rear.I would suggest that Calhoun had in fact turned his troop in this direction to stop this flanking movement.And thirdly the LBH immediately opposite the Custer battlefield is totally unsuitable for crossing with it's confusing maze of loops and brush wood.This would have forced Custer further north.
A small point of possible interest,there are two photos on page 183.They appear to be the same photo but they are not.The camara has been moved a fraction for the second photo.There is a boot dead center in both photos but it is slightly obscured by a bone or piece of timber in one. A similar photo appears in LBHR but practicaly the entire boot is obscured.It seems the photographer was going to get that boot photographed come hell or high water.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2005 : 2:26:19 PM
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It's a Geographical Survey map, Wild, oriented north, and divided into square miles on page 7.
I think Calhoun Hill is only good in comparison to LSH. There's some that argue Custer did go north, although to what point with so few is unknown.
You're unclear on stereoscope pictures. They're two pictures taken simultaneously on the same plate by, I recall, two separate lenses in a camera designed for such. When viewed in a stereoscope they gave the appearence of 3D, and that's what many of the photos in the book are. That marker was graced with the boot because it was suspected to be Custer's gravesite at one time. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2005 : 11:57:17 PM
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quote:
Dark Cloud Posted - December 18 2005 : 12:48:25 PM
quote:
Page 130, 137 give you basis for my (and others') cynicism, I think. Look at the paltry markers,
Just receieved my copy today so I haven't had much time to go through it. DC in looking at your example on page 130 I see 7 markers in the older photo and seven markers in the newer lower photo. I also see that a lot of the pictures are not exaclty taken from the same photo point, including direction and and distance. On page 137 the background slope is not the same. There is a lot more ridge line shown in the lower photgragh. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2005 : 10:43:18 AM
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I think 'paltry' better reflects 130 than 137, agreed.
On 137, I see eight, but I'm old, in the original, but none in concordance. The road is there now, and there's been grading, but it's the same place. It wasn't the number but the fact the originals are south and out of the current gated community. So. If you take out 12 from LSH (the book's noted difference) or 20% (for overall error), and spread the remaining markers down to the south per photo, and Custer's up and over the hill per testimony, and Boston and Autie Reed's way down hill where found, it looks - to me - quite different even were I am somehow forced to say corpse location bore tight relation to where they fell.
The text is most informative about all this, I thought. Look forward to your thoughts. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2005 : 3:14:51 PM
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The real substantive relevance of the markers is that they save Benteen and Reno's hides.
This is a tragedy in 3 acts.Just supposing the curtin falls at the end of the second act as Martin arrives with his come quick message?
Supposing the dead were all collected from the Custer field and placed in a mass grave with no record of where they fell.Oh what a field day the Custerphiles would have then.No evidence to disprove a long protracted gallant last stand with Custer the last to fall gazing hopefully to the south for a sign of Benteen.
Those markers, problematic as they may be are the silent witnesses to the final act.Custer's approach to contact and disposition of his forces up to MTC were suicidal.The markers confirm this by showing us the true result of his leadership. A command ambushed and strewn over a mile.No maneuvers,no command and control just pathetic little groups gathered around their troop commanders.
You're unclear on stereoscope pictures. They're two pictures taken simultaneously on the same plate
Thanks DC.I must read the text and not just concentrate on the pictures.I started fliping through it and when I saw that the authors came from the "maneuvering" school of Custerphiles I kinda just studied the pictures also How Can Man Die Better a new book on Isandlwana is competing for my attention.
AZ with the aid of a magnifying glass you can just make out the 8th marker on the horizon and of course not forgetting the ubiquitous boot.
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2005 : 9:31:49 PM
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| Before we get too deep into burials, pun intended, a little more of the battle. Since most of the warriors had responded to Reno's attack, and had to travel four miles or so once Custer was spotted; just where did this overwhelming force that ambushed Custer come from? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2005 : 10:47:07 PM
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| Is that when Custer sat around for an hour? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 06:08:08 AM
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Prolar,the amount of Indians that engaged Reno is debatable.
Considering the size of the village many would not have made it to that fight.By the time they collected there horses,arms etc and prepared themselves for battle Reno would be retreating.IMO more than half of the warriors would still be around the village and this could have changed Custer's mind as he approached the ford.Warriors were already on the east side of the river when Martini left,as he heard firing as he looked back and that his horse was shot.
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wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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Marker Relevance to Battle Scenarios
