| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 26 2005 : 2:24:20 PM
|
This, I doubt, will enthrall many or any of you, but worth a shot.
I’ve tried pointing out that several of the Custer scenes in popular memory (primarily the presentation of the corpse, a ‘last stand’, he is the last to die, the saber, his wave to Reno…) are, coincidently or not, recognition scenes that appeal to memories of other, loftier deaths of fact or fiction. It’s my shared theory that, especially in the Victorian Era and later through WWI and Mallory on Everest and the all the polar expeditions, familiar religious or heroic secular templates are applied to actual events, and that this can, intentionally or not, provide historic error.
This was utilized by the press, obviously, because they generally could have no clue about details for weeks and felt the need to say something, anything. They could rewrite old myths and insert new names.
I think it’s more than possible these templates were utilized by soldiers and other participants of the battle or after describing the various scenes because they felt it was their duty to do so and - because they were caught on a historical cusp with media and technology - what started out as an attempt at civil etiquette caught them in controversy they had zero desire and no expectation to visit again and again.
This applies as well to the presentations of the Sioux, where it remains in the contentions that there were leaders comparable to the soldier’s sense, and that Gall was such a leader (Wild still refers to this, and it’s been proven wrong, last I read), and that feudal ideals of nobility and heroism motivated both sides. Rain’s contention that Moving Robe fought as a warrior, the supposed mass knowledge of disaster at the moment it happened in all the Indians in the West, all that sort of stuff has roots in European myth and legend as well.
So. What, if any, recognition scenes are suggested to you, and does that wobble your theories or affect them when considering “testimony?”
|
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 26 2005 : 3:59:02 PM
|
I think contamination from reading other magazine & book articles about the battle is potentially more of an issue. Kanipe, I'm sure, had read some secondhand material about the battle, and I think this can be traced in his accounts. Look at his quote of Tom Custer in Graham, for example. The phrasing is very similar to the Cooke note, rhythmically as well as verbally, so similar that I can't believe that truly reflects history. How likely is it that Tom would speak in the same style as Cooke wrote? Other parts of Kanipe's story (i.e. three tepees filled with 70 dead Indians) seem to reflect pulp history as well.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on March 26 2005 4:10:44 PM |
  |
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 26 2005 : 8:15:20 PM
|
What is it with this profound certainty on the behalf of a few that the majority of us are spellbound and entrapped in a "popular memory" of a non-existent entity; the mythological Custer? He was a man, a human being, a guy like you and I who happened to have been a General in the Civil War. He later encountered the Plains Indians, was defeated, and died.
The saber waving, two gun shooting, last to fall icon never existed. Please be so kind as to not assume that all of us are not aware of this obvious conclusion.
Only the novice of an acute tender age would be susceptible to such outlandish rot. My fundamental impression of the members of the forum is that they are, generally, over 18 years of age. |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 27 2005 : 04:39:23 AM
|
It’s my shared theory that, especially in the Victorian Era and later through WWI and Mallory on Everest and the all the polar expeditions, familiar religious or heroic secular templates are applied to actual events, and that this can, intentionally or not, provide historic error.
Allow me DC to put your question another way as you seem to be a little confused.Does folklore provide historic error.?
Folklore is an expression of culture.It's not history and it seems from your post that you are unable to distinguish between the two.However having said that you do pose an interesting question.I'm no expert on the religions of the world but many I believe began life as folklore.Folklore requires only a prophet or Messiah preferably martyred to transform into religion.
It is all too easy to juxtapose religion and militarism.Death, sacrifice and ritual being the central tenets of both.When catholic youths are confirmed it is said they become soldiers of Christ.Militarism and religion are interwoven.A fertile breeding ground for folklore.
Just take this sentance of Joe's
He was a man, a human being, a guy like you and I who happened to have been a General in the Civil War. He later encountered the Plains Indians, was defeated, and died.
I have heard this a million times in just a slightly different form.
He was a man, a human being, a guy like you and I who happened to have been the son of God. He later encountered the Pharisees, was crucified, and died and rose again.
Well if folklore can convince people that Custer was seen in Washington on the 28th of June then the answer to your question and does that wobble your theories or affect them when considering “testimony?” is yes.
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 27 2005 : 11:35:59 AM
|
Not folklore, Wild, but template of literary convention. I guess that's a more accurate way to put it. It apparently happens very easily under social stress. The most common example is the insistence of people that their heroes must have Last Words. You sense this is much resented about Custer's passing. And these emotings sometimes demand breath control even reading them, they're so convoluted, and impossible for a wounded man to have either thought or considered, much less said, before he Entered Valhalla. Most last words are probably obscene variations of Goodness But This Hurts.
People also demand divine approval for their efforts and heroes, especially when events are biting the big one. For another example, the Angels of Mons.
When the British under French were caught unprepared for the huge German attack in August of 1914, they had to retreat. They did a good job, but it was a shock and a mess. A month later, a short story appeared in a British newspaper called "The Bowmen" in which the dead soldiers of Argincourt, a battle fought in that same area centuries previous, came back to cover the retreat. In the story, in which no angel is mentioned, the bowmen are described as a long line of shapes with a shining about them. Within a week, the British press had concluded that this was, indeed, fact and further they were angels, and then angel bowmen. When the writer, hideously embarrassed, tried to stem this mass delusion, the clergy and actual participants of the battle offered up testimonial stories of having seen angel bowmen covering the soldiers. The author was actually told he was incorrect in calling it fiction. Because the Dore prints of Milton's Paradise Lost and the angels were very popular then, and everyone had a print, and the image seems to have easily been altered into the then circumstances that were, however and obviously, totally false. This was not a small cult tale, but a mass belief within a sophisticated country. WWI produced several weird and widely held common beliefs. Both sides believed that deserters from all armies lived underground in No Man's Land.
That's all true, and it's extremely bizarre to read about it today. Given that, isn't it possible or, actually, likely that the shock of Custer's fiasco could have produced lesser but just as false variations on literary templates in the public mind that survive either as fact or distorted fact? All those Victorian stories with noble deaths and true against savages. I think it quite probable that the well read officer corps of the 7th attempted to pat Custer's death into what they thought was deserved shape and the right thing to do by literary and social convention. The descriptions of his body are just too Arthurian, too elevated for Indian warfare, and separate from that of everyone else. Edgerly and Bradley say none or few of the bodies were mutilated, Godfrey said most were, and then later said all except Custer. The Indians and the enlisted men and the NCO's tended to say about everyone was mutilated. It has all the whiff of various stories that didn't get patted into agreed upon shape because nobody really beleived it would be so 'important' later on.
When this nation was in shock in 1968, look at hit songs like Abraham, Martin, and John which appeared after RFK was killed, these odd attempts to wrap everything up in a comfy and understandable set of myths. Those preposterous stories about the Jessica Lynch episode which, to her everlasting honor, she blew away. The revolting and repetitive yellow ribbon routine for actual war vets or anyone returning emerged from a god awful popular song about a convict returning home and hoping his girl still wanted him. The story you often read now is that it started when POW's came home from war after Vietnam with less and less mention of Tony Orlando. A mass movement that suddenly appeared spontaneously. Be interesting in another decade to see how this is described. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 28 2005 : 2:32:19 PM
|
The most common example is the insistence of people that their heroes must have Last Words.
What an old cynic you are DC.Don't you know that some of the most renowned lines in recorded history have been uttered by the mortally wounded in their death throes.It has been proven that blood loss is compensated for by a rush of adrenalin to the brain.This has much the same effect as alcohol enabling the wounded to express their emotions with the eloquance of a poet.
On the battle field of Landen,Patrick Sarsfield commander of the Irish Brigade in the service of France lay mortally wounded.Lifting himself up and watching his life's blood flow into a foreign field uttered the immortal words "oh that this was for Ireland".
And let's not forget Caesar.Having recieved 40 fatal stab
wounds manages to gasp with his final breath "the first cut is the deepest"
People also demand divine approval for their efforts and heroes, especially when events are biting the big one. For another example, the Angels of Mons.
It appears DC that the apparition occured about the same time as the traumatised troops were given a double issue of rum.
Those preposterous stories about the Jessica Lynch episode which, to her everlasting honor, she blew away.
Dead heros are so much more agreeable.Very inconsiderate of Jessica to have survived.
One can over do the hero worship though.One dead hero is great,perhaps even a couple but 1500 is a bit much.No photos please.
I think it quite probable that the well read officer corps of the 7th attempted to pat Custer's death into what they thought was deserved shape and the right thing to do by literary and social convention.
The church and the military are purveyors of death.It is their product.It does not take a genius to figure that this product comes gift wrapped or as you say patted into an acceptable shape.Best we can do is heed Joe's words Only the novice of an acute tender age would be susceptible to such outlandish rot.
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 29 2005 : 11:19:15 AM
|
Wild: "It has been proven that blood loss is compensated for by a rush of adrenalin to the brain.This has much the same effect as alcohol enabling the wounded to express their emotions with the eloquance of a poet."
You'll find the evidence for that theory about Last Words are the same ridiculous stories, in demonstration of circular logic. And then, Nelson's Last Words: "KISS ME!...." were likely considered inappropriate, and an addendum was provided. More relevant testimony from those caring for the dying suggests last words tend to be "mother!" and "#%^VXVEWTWghe!~" which is utterly understandable and no less eloquent, if you ask me.
Also, I think you're kidding, but in case not, you miss the point. There was no apparition claimed by the soldiers. It was a creation of a short story writer a month after the battle. Only in retrospect did the participants discover the truth to the story, but no rum was involved unless by the writer. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on March 29 2005 11:19:53 AM |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 29 2005 : 11:58:37 AM
|
Also, I think you're kidding,
No !wherever did you get that idea?
More relevant testimony from those caring for the dying suggests last words tend to be "mother!" and "#%^VXVEWTWghe!~" which is utterly understandable and no less eloquent,
Touche old bean. |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 06 2005 : 03:38:03 AM
|
I read somewhere that as Custer and the 7th departed on their ill fated excursion his campfollowers noticed that a mist seemed to rise up out of the ground engulfing the command.It was as if they rode away into the clouds.
In the WW1 the servants in the British royal household raised a company of troops to go to Flanders to fight for King and country.During the course of an action they were ordered to secure a village.However they were ambushed and wiped out to a man.The military could not bring themselves to report the disaster to their majesties so instead they said that the unit had just disappeared.They even produced witnesses to state that as the unit advanced a cloud seemed to desend and engulf them.
And we know that the body of Christ disappeared and he was last seen ascending into heaven on a cloud. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 06 2005 : 2:48:23 PM
|
I think the Custer thing was a mirage, where the moving regiment was reflected in the mist above the ground, upside down, even. Very close to Sitting Bull seeing soldiers falling upside down into camp..... Something.
Never heard that about Their Majesties gofers, but would be typical. You read enough of these things and you find yourself thinking about them reading "testimony" that suggests them, you become suspicious. Custerland is full of them, it seems to me. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - April 06 2005 : 3:05:19 PM
|
| I havn't the fogiest idea what your talking about,maybe I mist the point ! |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 06 2005 : 3:31:05 PM
|
| What a vaporous reply |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 08 2005 : 12:38:10 PM
|
Okay, we have two possible recognition scenes that might be based on literary template, or squeezed to fit a literary template.
The two are: Custer's suspicious pieta death scene, and the mirage of upside down soldiers, melding with Sitting Bull's alleged dream.
Others are Godfrey and the flag falling over twice, the wave goodbye from the high point, the trust betrayed from the Cheyenne medicine men, the last stand. Also, Ryan claiming first and last shot at the battle, the trooper/coward who didn't charge and was the only one killed. Others?
If you find previous tales remarkably similar to those that emerge from the LS stories, I believe it ought to cast suspicion on all of it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - April 23 2005 : 10:07:47 PM
|
[quote]Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Okay, we have two possible recognition scenes that might be based on literary template, or squeezed to fit a literary template.
The two are: Custer's suspicious pieta death scene, and the mirage of upside down soldiers, melding with Sitting Bull's alleged dream.
Other than the ridiculous death scene in "They died with their Boots On" with E. Flynn (also other B&W's of the same genre) I have never read nor heard of Custer's death being described as a "pieta death scene." (He accuses me of inflated rhetoric, hell I couldn't even find Pieta in the dictionary.) I have heard of the possibility that he was observed crawling in the dirt, blood leaking from his chest, while he looked dismayed at the mayhem and hell that overwhelmed him at the final moments. Such a death does not sound glorious or saintly.
D.c
Others are Godfrey and the flag falling over twice, the wave goodbye from the high point, the trust betrayed from the Cheyenne medicine men, the last stand. Also, Ryan claiming first and last shot at the battle, the trooper/coward who didn't charge and was the only one killed. Others?
Godfrey has long been recognized as a man of honor and veracity by virtually every historian and person who knew him personally. Perhaps he was telling the truth. I can remember no flag tipping incident in other American battles that resulted in a premonition of failure. This situation is unique to this particular battle, thus your "template" theory does not apply here.
Benteen, himself, testified that he placed a guidon upon the "high place" to signal possible survivors of Custer's command. (Of course he countered that testimony by declaring that all of Custer's troops were dead by the time he arrived at Reno's Bluff.)Why not an additional wave to say farewell to comrades?
The image of Custer's troops reflected in the sky was a natural phenomenon caused by heat inversion. The witnesses to this event are identified and numerous. To my knowledge,no witnesses ever existed who could verify what Sitting Bull visualized in his vision. There were no psychic mediums among the Lakota. Is it just possible that Mr. Sitting Bull, having heard of the mirage incident while sojourning in Canada (many Indians understood English) may have heard of this event belatedly, claimed that the "mirage" was also his vision that the Whites failed to respect? Naturally, I may be wrong but, it beats forcing the two events into your "template."
D.c.
If you find previous tales remarkably similar to those that emerge from the LS stories, I believe it ought to cast suspicion on all of it.
I have found previous "tales" remarkably similar permeating throughout your threads and, you're right, I an very suspicious. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on April 23 2005 10:12:30 PM |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 24 2005 : 12:16:22 PM
|
Wiggs, look up words you don't understand. TDWTBO doesn't offer a pieta scene at all. It doesn't show Custer dead at all. Pieta is in the dictionary and probably takes up some space.
A Pieta is an artistic rendering of the dead Christ being attended by his mother at the base of the cross. The representations of Christ in all these paintings recall the descriptions of Custer's corpse, which after three days we are to believe was neither mutilated nor corrupted. Why you couldn't find it in a dictionary or on the Web is a mystery. Just typing in Pieta to Google provides you right off with three illustrative examples and pages of references.
The story that's probably more accurate, although no proof, of Custer crawling in the dirt is not the one offered by the 7th or those who saw the body on the 27th. The slight smile, lounging over two soldiers, clean wounds, uncorrupted, etc. I think it pretty clear that these are the representations that the 7th wanted the public to hear - and the public wanted to hear it - but it is highly unlikely to be the truth. This was expected protocol during the time and not considered lying per se. Or rather, lying for a higher cause than truth. People deserve the death in public memory their lives earned, not the ones received.
Godfrey is not unblemished. He gives every indication of being a drudge. Barnitz, who was with him at West Point, thought him a slow witted loser and worse. Benteen is predicatably sour. Godfrey made General for endurance rather than competence during a pretty dry period of the military. He appended himself to Mrs. Custer just like Nelson Miles.
You utterly miss the point, Wiggs. There is a thousand years of literature when promonition and stupid incidents are thought to have deep significance. What Euro people back then referenced were the Bible, Shakespeare, and a thousand years of good and bad romances. The Song of Roland, Morte de Arthur, and other literature of the time was probably studied even at West Point (I don't know) and the Iliad surely was. Their point of reference was not the history of the Army, but of their deep past. As I write, however, I can't but think of a zillion incidents of people rushing to catch the banner before it hits the ground, in battle and not, because it signifies defeat. Custer writes about people catching the regimental banner just before it hits. There's at least one painting of Custer in battle where just such an incident is referenced. Just before the 7th crossed into the LBH valley, Wallace or someone stuck the guidon into the ground and it fell over. Happened again. After the defeat, it was recalled as a premonition. True or not. Godfrey wrote about it.
No Wiggs, I doubt SB heard of or gave the remotest flying fungo bat about a mirage at Ft. ALincoln. I don't know from what source that tale about his dream came from - supposedly it happened at the Sundance long after the mirage - but it was sure lept upon. Be curious to note the first mention of it, because I bet it was years in the future. As to the numerous witnesses to the mirage event, did any mention of this appear in print or cursive letter till the results of the LBH were known? I don't know. I'm naturally suspicious. Mrs. Custer routinely fluffed up past letters. You say there were numerous witnesses. There should have been if it happened. Can you name five? I cannot.
So, let's see. You can't find "pieta" in the dictionary, although it's there, and you seem unaware of the numerous references to soldiers rushing to keep the flag from hitting the ground - the Civil War is full of this - as well as the incident about which Godfrey writes. No need to inquire about your readings in the literature that sat resident in the RAMs of the officer corps and which formed their view of the world and provided the templates for their own writings.
Like it or not, these are the topics that have made Custer an icon, not bullet trajectory, and probably they influenced the battle more. These are the reasons it appeals to most of you, although you won't admit it, and why people insist there was a last stand and a heroic one when there's really not much evidence. This is our Roland, Cid, and Arthur all in one and we try to find fullfillment of literary reference to every famous scene in western civillization. The Last Stand, uncorrupted/divine corpse, the final wave from a high place, Judas in the ranks, portents, a Caesarian wife, fighting to the last man, crossing the Rubicon of the Wolf Mt.'s, it's all there. And when it isn't there, effort is made to put it in. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 24 2005 1:13:35 PM |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - April 24 2005 : 3:09:57 PM
|
[quote]Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Wiggs, look up words you don't understand. TDWTBO doesn't offer a pieta scene at all. It doesn't show Custer dead at all. Pieta is in the dictionary and probably takes up some space.
A Pieta is an artistic rendering of the dead Christ being attended by his mother at the base of the cross. The representations of Christ in all these paintings recall the descriptions of Custer's corpse, which after three days we are to believe was neither mutilated nor corrupted. Why you couldn't find it in a dictionary or on the Web is a mystery. Just typing in Pieta to Google provides you right off with three illustrative examples and pages of references.
Your usage of the word Pieta was ambiguous and confusing as you utilized it in a descriptive manner to describe the subject (death scene). The Pieta is a noun, a thing. Secondly, it is not A death scene, it is THE death scene. Thirdly, your usage of this classical art to describe Custer's death scene is incomprehensible.
The story that's probably more accurate, although no proof, of Custer crawling in the dirt is not the one offered by the 7th or those who saw the body on the 27th. The slight smile, lounging over two soldiers, clean wounds, uncorrupted, etc. I think it pretty clear that these are the representations that the 7th wanted the public to hear - and the public wanted to hear it - but it is highly unlikely to be the truth. This was expected protocol during the time and not considered lying per se. Or rather, lying for a higher cause than truth. People deserve the death in public memory their lives earned, not the ones received.
I never mentioned a "smile" in my thread. Are you simply making this up or do you have a reliable source to substantiate it?
Godfrey is not unblemished. He gives every indication of being a drudge. Barnitz, who was with him at West Point, thought him a slow witted loser and worse. Benteen is predicatably sour. Godfrey made General for endurance rather than competence during a pretty dry period of the military. He appended himself to Mrs. Custer just like Nelson Miles.
Whats a drudge? Is this a noun or an adjective?
You utterly miss the point, Wiggs. There is a thousand years of literature when promonition and stupid incidents are thought to have deep significance. What Euro people back then referenced were the Bible, Shakespeare, and a thousand years of good and bad romances. The Song of Roland, Morte de Arthur, and other literature of the time was probably studied even at West Point (I don't know) and the Iliad surely was. Their point of reference was not the history of the Army, but of their deep past. As I write, however, I can't but think of a zillion incidents of people rushing to catch the banner before it hits the ground, in battle and not, because it signifies defeat. Custer writes about people catching the regimental banner just before it hits. There's at least one painting of Custer in battle where just such an incident is referenced. Just before the 7th crossed into the LBH valley, Wallace or someone stuck the guidon into the ground and it fell over. Happened again. After the defeat, it was recalled as a premonition. True or not. Godfrey wrote about it.
No my friend, you have missed the point. Neither the Song of Roland, Mort DE Arthur, or any other classical literature has a 7th. Calvary guidon falling to the ground in the Montana wind.
No Wiggs, I doubt SB heard of or gave the remotest flying fungo bat about a mirage at Ft. ALincoln. I don't know from what source that tale about his dream came from - supposedly it happened at the Sundance long after the mirage - but it was sure lept upon. Be curious to note the first mention of it, because I bet it was years in the future. As to the numerous witnesses to the mirage event, did any mention of this appear in print or cursive letter till the results of the LBH were known? I don't know. I'm naturally suspicious. Mrs. Custer routinely fluffed up past letters. You say there were numerous witnesses. There should have been if it happened. Can you name five? I cannot.
What's a fuego bat? I couldn't find that either. You really don't like Libby Custer do you? What has she ever done to you? As for your challenge, I will not fall for that ploy again. Evey time I prove you wrong in such a manner, and it has happened more than once, you ignore me or say bad things about me.
So, let's see. You can't find "pieta" in the dictionary, although it's there, and you seem unaware of the numerous references to soldiers rushing to keep the flag from hitting the ground - the Civil War is full of this - as well as the incident about which Godfrey writes. No need to inquire about your readings in the literature that sat resident in the RAMs of the officer corps and which formed their view of the world and provided the templates for their own writings.
I still can't find it in the dictionary. I didn't look in Google.
Like it or not, these are the topics that have made Custer an icon, not bullet trajectory, and probably they influenced the battle more. These are the reasons it appeals to most of you, although you won't admit it, and why people insist there was a last stand and a heroic one when there's really not much evidence. This is our Roland, Cid, and Arthur all in one and we try to find fulfillment of literary reference to every famous scene in western civilization. The Last Stand, uncorrupted/divine corpse, the final wave from a high place, Judas in the ranks, portents, a Caesarian wife, fighting to the last man, crossing the Rubicon of the Wolf Mt.'s, it's all there. And when it isn't there, effort is made to put it in.
You are the only individual on this planet who would compare General Custer's death to the great classics, Roland, El Cid and Arthur. This may qualify for the most inexplicable post you have ever created. Your convoluted and disturbingly incorrect Mish-mash dissertation of history, and the classics, is bizarre.
By the way, you spelled predictable and premonition incorrectly.
/quote] |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on April 24 2005 3:40:23 PM |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 02 2005 : 12:56:37 PM
|
1. No Wiggs, it was neither confusing nor misleading. You didn't know what it meant. Most junior high students have seen Michelangelo's and others works in books and have knowledge of it.
2. I didn't say you had mentioned a smile; the point is that a Mona Lisa type smile is not uncommon on the representations of Christ after death, seing A World Beyond. And that was adapted for descriptions of Custer, it seems.
3. It's a noun. Look it up, Wiggs. For a guy who pretends to police, teaching, dramatic spitting episodes (you called the guy to set him straight, right?), you need to flesh out your presentation.
4. You wouldn't know, not reading classics anymore than you read Tolkien, but banners falling - whether flag or guidon - are common concerns in hero literature since Rome.
5. Find a dictionary and look it up. It's a narrow bat used by a coach to train infielders' skills.
6. Actually there's been a book or two that chat about it. Even Evan Connell touched on it. Not that you'd know. I misspell a fair amount, but they're mostly typos. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 02 2005 : 5:27:55 PM
|
Everybody here has heard of Evan Connell, Warlord, since he wrote the book that has probably sold more copies than all the rest on Custer put together: Son of the Morning Star. Nothing of all the laughable idiocies you've posted, which is an extensive list, illustrates better your ignorance both of the battle, the writings on the battle, and your reading ability, since you thought it said O'Connell, and even then it should have tripped a wire of recognition. It's why I've never believed, and others have apparently come to agree, that such an idiot was much of a soldier, or anything beyond a cubicle filler.
My writing is only stilted and mysterious to the ignorant and unread, like yourself and Wiggs. But you don't read much outside gun trivia, so you wouldn't know. As I don't believe kids with the time to memorize baseball card stats were great athletes, I don't believe your late blooming desperation to be an authority on something suggests a martial past of note, much less merit.
"Drudge" was not misused by me. Barnitz' description of Godfrey is the definition.
You probably didn't run across pieta, but that doesn't mean anything, given the numerous glaring holes in your education. I'm not Catholic and have known ever since seventh grade and we read about Leonardo and his contemporaries.
I doubt you've read Tolkien - you certainly wouldn't understand it (most really don't, so you're not alone)- who was a world authority on ancient languages, the Eddas, and Beowulf. Nor could you write a reference showing where he cheerfully utilized his sources in his books, although generations of English Lit majors can and do and provided much of the enthusiasm which made him the best selling author he is, voted the most influential or important (I forget and don't care) of the 20th century in England. It's too bad, because the Victorian world of Custer (and of Tolkien's early years) so clearly informed the writing and descriptions of incidents in that period, including the Last Stand. It certainly influenced Sir John Franklin's nephew, the poet laureate of the British Empire.
The fungo bats through my generation were very narrow and specifically for that activity in infield practice, unsuitably thin for game use. Baseball players would know that. They're not required, but they existed in number. It's possible they no longer use them. I still don't give a flying fungo bat what you think about it, whatever passes as synapse and thought with you. But as I've said months ago, you're clearly used to that. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 02 2005 : 6:26:43 PM
|
All--
As it seems we are using standard psuedo-heroic literary devices in regards to presentation of Custer's demise and his corpse, let's not forget the multitude of badly done art that furthers these myths ... on people's walls! The Vatican Pieta is often used, without question, as accepted and believeable-realistic iconography in several visual representations of a dying Custer, usually with Brother Tom as the Virgin Mary's figure--and of course, the end of the battalion on LSH--always represented in manners similar to either Gericault or Delacroix (I do have a copy of the infamous Budweiser print--but it's kept well out of public view, right next to our picture of Sgt. Pepper)--both Romantics.
Just a note from the art side of the argument ...
Hoka hey! |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 02 2005 : 7:17:41 PM
|
| My observation is solely that the written and verbal descriptions of those who saw Custer's corpse recall well known renderings of pieta scenes, and add to suspicion about their accuracy even above uncorrupted flesh. I know of no art outside that one battlefield pamphlet that actually seems to depict Custer in that manner. Could be, but I don't know of it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 03 2005 : 11:04:54 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
My observation is solely that the written and verbal descriptions of those who saw Custer's corpse recall well known renderings of pieta scenes, and add to suspicion about their accuracy even above uncorrupted flesh. I know of no art outside that one battlefield pamphlet that actually seems to depict Custer in that manner. Could be, but I don't know of it.
And my observation is that bad art of a dying Custer further perpetuates those myths that were first established in the written sources you have mentioned. Actually, I think the Von Schmidt painting is one of the better--at least Custer is crawling around with no visible smile upon his pearly lips. And I see no dark gessoing of the painting to make it more palatable to those who prefer a more heroic presentation of the death scene.
I am also quite concerned with how Native Americans are portrayed in such works--they seem a group of faceless, angry masses.
For an example of bad myth gone amok, check out the front of Wayne Sarf's book. Looks like the kind of thing you can hang next to your velvet Elvis tapestry.
Regards, |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 03 2005 : 1:27:55 PM
|
As long as people want to hear and read it, I'm there, Warlord. Approaching a quarter century with one radio show. As for Boulder being a sewer, you should chat with Col. Brown at "Soldier of Fortune." He certainly seems to like it, and has lived here for decades, and headquartered his magazine here.
Any new people are probably here because of Connell, a book you haven't read and an author you didn't recognize. It's not quite as distinct as a forum on Samuel Johnson and not knowing who Boswell was, but it's close. Quite stupid, Warlord.
"Gee, if I was not much of a soldier, what does that make your hero fairytale writer? Was he much of a soldier in WW1, my fine feathered troll?" Yes, he fought at the Somme. An actual warrior in battle under fire. Who are you to question an actual soldier, Warlord?
"Actually DC your writing style is terrible. If you wrote in an english class like this, you would be laughed out of class!" As long as it's profitable, I'll muddle along, Warlord.
I probably am a coward, cheerfully admitted, but then I pretend to nothing I am not. I certainly don't envy soldiers, I don't pretend to have served, I don't pretend to have been in war, and I don't pretend to combat experience. Oh course, as 4f from first draft card, it played no role in my life at all. I do live with it.
Someone else's use or misuse doesn't affect me. It was used correctly.
And what role did you play, Warlord, in the numerous and increasing revelations of child abuse by Catholic clergy and the extensive cover up? Does that illustrate the respect and humility you say Catholics have? At least you now admit pieta is a word. That's progress. You still use your own vast ignorance as the benchmark, and that's embarrassing. It's like saying that if something is beyond your understanding, there must be a God.
Tolkien was a South African transplant and a devout practicing Catholic. How embarrassing for you. He wrote about creating a mythical pre-Christian Europe. The stories are compendiums of Northern European myth, hardly invented by Tolkien, nor did he claim it. You've clearly never read him. There are no fairies, of any sort, in his works. He was quite proud of his service in WWI and kept close to those who served with him. He wasn't anti-war whatsoever, and if you'd read the books you'd know it. It's an actual holy war described in Lord of the Rings, a war of sacrifice that has to be fought.
He headed entire departments at two universities and taught to his retirement, and this work ethic mandated his limited published output. He was a world authority on ancient languages, and his Elvish languages are derived from the Celtic and Norse. His invented languages work - neither non-sensical nor mere code substitution. They have grammar rules and extensive vocabularies. If you had clue one about any of this, you'd know the felt the need to create an extensive backstory to his writings, one of the many reasons he's so widely read and regarded. His format was subcreation of already existing tales. He only became rich and able to leave teaching in his last years.
That you'd propose I write like Tolkien is pretty lame, Warlord. No similarity at all, but thank you. I could do far worse.
Your summation, even though punctuated with your inevitable scream indicator, is neither true nor sensical. And Warlord, so long as I get paid, I'll continue as I do. Your opinion, which carries no value to me, on whether I'm educated or not isn't compelling since you're clearly not.
Now I'll let you go back to pretending to military authority and explain how weapons that weren't there stopped Pickett's charge. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 03 2005 : 4:44:16 PM
|
If any smallarms weapon had a significant influence on the outcome of the battle it was the Sharpes carbine and that in the hands of Bufords troops who fought a brillant classic dragoon delaying action which deprived Lee of Cemetery Ridge.
The above is from a post of mine outlining the vital role of the Sharps carbine at Gettysburg.
He next carried the argumentation that repeating rifles and inferred Sharps (more advanced technological weapons) had no effect on Gettysburg
The above is posted by Warlord.I make no comment.[yet again] |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 04 2005 : 03:31:03 AM
|
The most vexing single element in any debate is a refusal to be honest.A refusal,that is, to base one's arguments ,in good faith,on demonstrable facts and to draw conclusions from those facts in a fairminded and logical manner.Warlord far too often relies upon factual distortions to butress his arguements.He exaggerates the inconsequetial and dismisses the consequential and more often than not he relies upon barrack room vulgarity with which abuse contributers.
The above posting of his was so blatantly untruthful that I at first thought he was just mistaken and so gave him the benifit of the doubt and the opportunity to correct it.But no he describes me as a BS'er.
We have a good board here but if we pander to the likes of him we will ruin it.It is my intention to ignore him and I suggest the rest of you good people do the same. |
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 04 2005 : 6:15:07 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Movingrobewoman: How are you doing? Well I hope.
Now that you mention it, I don't seem to recall any painting or art showing Lame White Man being cut down or Gall's family shredded by .45-55 slugs in front of Reno's men! Nor have I seen any portraits of Sitting Bull as He watched Terry's forces approach. Certainly nothing about Wounded Knee I can recall. Of course, I am not deep in the art world.
It does seem kind of one sided though, doesn't it?
I am sure there is some Custer/LBH art out there that doesn't render NAs as an angry mob of faceless barbarians, wearing buffalo horns. If not, there has got to be some type of market for this. Of course, there is the Crazy Horse monument ...
But what's all this when compared to the legendary Custer, cut down--through absolutely NO FAULT--NO FAULT of his own--at the prime of his life, with two brothers, a brother-in-law, a nephew, and a best friend in tow, often depicted as the only guy at the end ... leaving his "little durl" as a poor widow (literally)?
Hehehe ... |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 04 2005 : 7:43:47 PM
|
"3. Exagerating the inconsequential? Some moron claiming there were "few repeaters in our civil war until the very end"! Sounds like your grasp of the consequential versus the inconsequential is inconsequential!"
Paulie, there were relatively few repeating carbines / rifles when compared to the number of Springfield rifled muskets.
Your figure, which I have to accept, is something like 213,000 total Spencers sold by Spencer Firearms Co. Add to that something like 16,000 Henry rifles and a few thousand Ballards.
Maximum we can figure is 300,000 repeaters. Compare that to the numbers of Sharp's carbines, Springfields, and other single-shot carbines issued per year. The Federal arsenals at the start the fiscal year for 1865 had this amount of rifles, muskets and carbines in the arsenals:
Muskets & Rifles...........1,167,405
Carbines......................22,616
From 7/01/1864 thru 6/30/1865 the Federal government purchased or manufactured the following:
Muskets and rifles.......426,571
Carbines.................142,201
Of the above quantities, they issued the following:
Muskets and rifles.........398,404
Carbines...................098,051
And were left with the differences in the arsenals at the end of the war of:
M & R................1,195.572
Carbines................65,766
The figures above are from A.B. Dyer, Chief of Ordnance, dated 10/20/1865 from his annual report.
So you see, the total amount of repeaters is equivalent to about three-quarter of a year's supply of rifles/muskets. The preceding is based upon the war ending in April, 1865.
If anyone needs the source, I will be glad to furnish that information. Just PM me and I will get back to you.
Best of wishes,
Billy
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Custer Recognition Scenes
